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Who Else Comes to Mind

  • 1.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-06-2004 08:11
    Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me, several names comes
    to mind right away: Drucker, Mintzberg, Vroom (& Yetton), Thomas Saaty,
    Kepner & Tregoe.

    Who else comes to mind?

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols, CPT
    Senior Consultant
    Distance Consulting
    "Assistance at A Distance"
    nickols@att.net
    www.nickols.us


  • 2.  Who Else Comes to Mind (decision theorists)

    Posted 12-06-2004 08:52
    Fred

    You might look at J. Shanteau and T.R. Stewart, "Why study expert
    decision-making: Some historical perspectives and comments," Organizational
    Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 53, 2(November 1992), pp. 95-106.
    [This is a year too old for the electronic format to be available in
    e-libraries unfortunately.]

    and

    Emiel F. M. Wubben, Markets, Uncertainty and Decision-making: A history of
    the the introduction of uncertainty into economics. Was a doctoral thesis:
    http://www.tinbergen.nl/scripts/theses.pl?thesis=055.dat
    which Amazon is out of:
    http://tinyurl.com/5awzd
    I suggest you telephone him or email him with your query. His contact
    information is at:
    http://www.niwi.knaw.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoeker/PRS1246312/

    Cybercollegially,
    Charles Wankel
    http://management-education.net/rmed3 Cutting-Edge of Intl Mgt Ed


    -----Original Message-----
    Fred Nichols wrote:

    Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me, several names comes
    to mind right away: Drucker, Mintzberg, Vroom (& Yetton), Thomas Saaty,
    Kepner & Tregoe.

    Who else comes to mind?


  • 3.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-06-2004 09:09
    In addition to those you list, the names that come to MY mind include March,
    Jago, Delbecq, Janis & Mann, Driver, and Pate.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:11 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Who Else Comes to Mind

    Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me, several names comes
    to mind right away: Drucker, Mintzberg, Vroom (& Yetton), Thomas Saaty,
    Kepner & Tregoe.

    Who else comes to mind?

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols, CPT
    Senior Consultant
    Distance Consulting
    "Assistance at A Distance"
    nickols@att.net
    www.nickols.us


  • 4.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-06-2004 10:11
    Driver? Driver who? Who driver? Not Dutch Driver?

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    nickols@att.net


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-
    > DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 9:09 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > In addition to those you list, the names that come to MY mind include
    > March,
    > Jago, Delbecq, Janis & Mann, Driver, and Pate.
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:11 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me, several names
    > comes
    > to mind right away: Drucker, Mintzberg, Vroom (& Yetton), Thomas Saaty,
    > Kepner & Tregoe.
    >
    > Who else comes to mind?
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Fred Nickols, CPT
    > Senior Consultant
    > Distance Consulting
    > "Assistance at A Distance"
    > nickols@att.net
    > www.nickols.us


  • 5.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-06-2004 15:51
    Mike Driver. See:

    http://www.marshall.usc.edu/web/MOR.cfm?doc_id=3034

    http://www.marshall.usc.edu/web/MOR.cfm?doc_id=6691


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 7:11 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind

    Driver? Driver who? Who driver? Not Dutch Driver?

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    nickols@att.net


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-
    > DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 9:09 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > In addition to those you list, the names that come to MY mind include
    > March, Jago, Delbecq, Janis & Mann, Driver, and Pate.
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:11 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me, several names
    > comes to mind right away: Drucker, Mintzberg, Vroom (& Yetton), Thomas
    > Saaty, Kepner & Tregoe.
    >
    > Who else comes to mind?
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Fred Nickols, CPT
    > Senior Consultant
    > Distance Consulting
    > "Assistance at A Distance"
    > nickols@att.net
    > www.nickols.us


  • 6.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-06-2004 09:35
    And how could we forget Simon! His little late-40s book on "Administrative
    Behavior," where he talks about bounded rationality and satisficing, forever
    turned the traditional economic model of maximizing on its head! For those
    whose research doesn't focus on decision-making, Simon argued that the
    conditions necessary for maximization are that the decision maker knows all
    the alternatives and the payoffs on those alternatives, such that he/she
    then simply picks the one with the highest payoffs (i.e., "best"). However,
    he added that such reasoning was good only in theory, and that real
    administrators in real jobs never had full knowledge of the alternatives or
    their payoffs. Thus, he observed that the best that anyone could ever do
    was attempt to maximize, given the limits of their knowledge and the
    boundary that existed on their ability to be rational -- thus, the term
    "bounded rationality." And the new term he created to refer to this
    "attempt to maximize, given bounded rationaltiy" was "satisficing." Both
    are central to the decision-making literature. For more, see Simon (1947)
    or March & Simon (1958).

    Larry Pate
    Redondo Beach, California


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Larry Pate [mailto:larry@pate.org]
    Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 6:09 AM
    To: 'Management Education and Development Discussion'
    Cc: 'nickols@att.net'
    Subject: RE: Who Else Comes to Mind

    In addition to those you list, the names that come to MY mind include March,
    Jago, Delbecq, Janis & Mann, Driver, and Pate.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 5:11 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Who Else Comes to Mind

    Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me, several names comes
    to mind right away: Drucker, Mintzberg, Vroom (& Yetton), Thomas Saaty,
    Kepner & Tregoe.

    Who else comes to mind?

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols, CPT
    Senior Consultant
    Distance Consulting
    "Assistance at A Distance"
    nickols@att.net
    www.nickols.us


  • 7.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-06-2004 14:38
    How about Myron Tribus?

    Tribus, Myron; Rational Description, Decisions and Design, Pergamon,1969

    He was an UnderSectreaary of something at one point, a professor at a
    major school, and wrote this book. Of which, I said in my notes:

    The book is fantastic. Talk about logical beginnings. How do we think?
    How do we arrive at conclusions. It's in here. But very thick. Sorry
    about that. Chapter 1 or 2 totally destroys valuing decisions based on
    the outcome. We have to work with the liklihoods we understand at the
    time of the decision.

    Jay

    Fred Nickols wrote:

    >Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me, several names comes
    >to mind right away: Drucker, Mintzberg, Vroom (& Yetton), Thomas Saaty,
    >Kepner & Tregoe.
    >
    >Who else comes to mind?
    >
    >Regards,
    >
    >Fred Nickols, CPT
    >Senior Consultant
    >Distance Consulting
    >"Assistance at A Distance"
    >nickols@att.net
    >www.nickols.us
    >
    >
    >
    >

    --
    Jay Warner
    Principal Scientist
    Warner Consulting, Inc.
    4444 North Green Bay Road
    Racine, WI 53404-1216
    USA

    Ph: (262) 634-9100
    FAX: (262) 681-1133
    email: quality@a2q.com
    web: http://www.a2q.com

    The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?


  • 8.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-07-2004 09:24
    Fred asked in part:

    <Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me...>>

    Rather than think of a 'technique' or a 'process' I think of a recounting.
    Graham Allison wrote =Essence of Decision= about the 1962 Cuban Missile
    Crisis. He writes three plausible interpretations of the events --
    depending on where you worked, what memos you saw, your likely inferences
    ...

    The models he uses he calls
    + Model I: The Rational Actor
    + Model II: Organizational Process, and
    + Model III: Governmental Politics.

    Thus, the 'decision' you would make depends on where you are coming from
    and what constitutes 'data' from that direction.

    Part of his conclusion:
    "The information required by Model II and Model III analysts dwarfs that
    needed by a Model I analyst. ...Thus, while at one level three models
    produce different explanations of the same happening, at a second level the
    models produce different explanations of quite different occurrences. ...
    Spectacles magnify one set of factors rather than another and thus not only
    lead analysts to produce different explanations of problems that appear, in
    the summary questions, to be the same, but also influence the character of
    the analyst's puzzle, the evidence he assumes to be relevant, the concepts
    he uses in examining the evidence, and what he takes to be an explanation."

    And, of course, at the geopolitical scale, the stakes are somewhat higher
    than most of us deal with ...

    FWIW

    Michael A

    ps This book was part of a grad course I took, taught by the mayor of a
    local suburb ...

    Michael Ayers
    mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 9.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-07-2004 09:59
    I've used Allison's book on the Cuban Missile Crisis in my graduate seminars
    on decision-making and it's an excellent little book. It also nicely
    illustrates the importance of "design activity" that Simon talked about as
    one of three essential components of the decision-making process. To Simon,
    the thing that distinguished differences in choices (choice activity), both
    within and across individuals, was the amount of information the person had
    (intelligence gathering activity) and how the person assembled that
    information (design activity). In our recent political election, for
    example, one person might vote for Bush and another for Kerry because (a)
    they had different information about the candidates, and/or (b) they
    assembled their information about the candidates differently. This concept
    of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis on "frame" and "frame
    theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others, have written about.

    Larry Pate
    Redondo Beach, California


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:24 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind

    Fred asked in part:

    <Whenever someone says decision or decision-making to me...>>

    Rather than think of a 'technique' or a 'process' I think of a recounting.
    Graham Allison wrote =Essence of Decision= about the 1962 Cuban Missile
    Crisis. He writes three plausible interpretations of the events --
    depending on where you worked, what memos you saw, your likely inferences
    ...

    The models he uses he calls
    + Model I: The Rational Actor
    + Model II: Organizational Process, and
    + Model III: Governmental Politics.

    Thus, the 'decision' you would make depends on where you are coming from and
    what constitutes 'data' from that direction.

    Part of his conclusion:
    "The information required by Model II and Model III analysts dwarfs that
    needed by a Model I analyst. ...Thus, while at one level three models
    produce different explanations of the same happening, at a second level the
    models produce different explanations of quite different occurrences. ...
    Spectacles magnify one set of factors rather than another and thus not only
    lead analysts to produce different explanations of problems that appear, in
    the summary questions, to be the same, but also influence the character of
    the analyst's puzzle, the evidence he assumes to be relevant, the concepts
    he uses in examining the evidence, and what he takes to be an explanation."

    And, of course, at the geopolitical scale, the stakes are somewhat higher
    than most of us deal with ...

    FWIW

    Michael A

    ps This book was part of a grad course I took, taught by the mayor of a
    local suburb ...

    Michael Ayers
    mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 10.  Who Else Comes to Mind

    Posted 12-07-2004 11:21
    Larry replied in part:

    <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent
    emphasis on "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal,
    among and others, have written about.>>

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or mindset
    or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior to the 'frame'
    approach?

    Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon (I'd
    appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I have
    moderate exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter suggest
    the 're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that conclusion by
    offering a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ... and perhaps
    unintentionally depriving the observer from creating her/his own set of
    useful frames.

    Michael A

    Michael Ayers
    mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 11.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 12:05
    Michael Ayers asks a good question (re: Simon's concept of "design activity"
    versus Bolman & Deal's work on "reframing"), one that easily could take a
    good book to fully answer. However, briefly, I'll say that I think the
    value to Simon's distinction is that it tells us precisely why there is such
    variance in individual choices, and even inconsistencies within individuals
    in the choices we make. I see Simon as kind of this all-knowing, all-seeing
    guru who plops down on our planet for a time and who tells us in simple
    terms why we're both screwing up and getting it right. I don't mean that
    literally, of course, but metaphorically. He tells us people make different
    choices because they have different information and that they use the
    information they have differently. How more elegant can it get? No wonder
    Simon is a Nobel Laureate (for his work in decision-making).

    But, hearing Simon's distinction or even agreeing with it is not enough. If
    Kurt Lewin was correct that, "there is nothing so practical as a good
    theory," then the important thing is to go from understanding to action.
    Knowing the essential components of decision-making does not in itself
    prevent us from falling into common decision traps, or what has been called
    the "unwanted repetitive episodes" of faulty decision-making. And in that
    is where Bolman & Deal's work on reframing, and even some of my own work in
    developing the ACES Decision-Making Technique, adds value. In short,
    knowing is one thing; translating that knowledge into purposeful action is
    another.

    Thus, in answer to your question, no, I don't think Simon's distinction is
    any "better" or "worse" than what Bolman & Deal talk about, but I do think
    the focus is quite different. It's like Simon pointed the way and now
    Bolman & Deal are helping people to understand how to get there. The
    various "frames" they talk about are but examples of the seemingly endless
    varieties of possibilities. We might see it this way, we might see it that.
    By offering sets of possibilities people can see that their own initial
    frame is not the only one, and not even necessarily the "best" one. It's
    like living in Fargo your whole life and never knowing anything else (i.e.,
    single frame) versus having traveled all over the planet and seeing how lots
    of people in lots of different settings do things (i.e., multiple frames).
    That, to me, is the value in exploring various frames, even if the limited
    frames Bolman & Deal give us are at best only close approximations of any
    particular frame we might hold at any particular point in time.

    Imagine, for example, a police officer with 12 years police experience who
    hates his job, but who needs 20 years police service to receive full
    retirement benefits. He might believe that he has only two choices --
    either stay for another 8 years in a job he hates or quit and lose his
    retirement. Now also imagine that a reason he thinks he can't quit is that
    he believes his wife will never move. With this "frame" he remains stuck in
    defensive avoidance (Janis & Mann), rather than moving toward vigilance.
    What would it take to get unstuck? The answer is, something that helps him
    change the frame. As it turns out, this is not just a made-up example it's
    a real issue that was raised in one of my decision-making seminars. By
    applying the ACES technique and looking at his assumptions ("wife will not
    move") and counter-assumptions ("wife will move"), the police officer was
    able to see things differently and get unstuck. While this example stems
    from use of the ACES technique, the same could be said for the work of
    Bolman & Deal or others who also encourage people to view things
    differently. As Karl Weick says when he talks about mutating metaphors,
    "Believing is seeing." The more we can understand about the various lenses
    people use for solving problems, the more prescriptive we can be when
    helping people make more informed choices.

    Finally, Michael also asks for a good reference on Simon's work, and I would
    suggest either the original source or the "Decision Making" module that Mike
    Driver and I wrote for McGraw-Hill. Send me a mailing address and I'll be
    glad to send a copy of the module to you. Same for my work on ACES, if
    you're interested.

    Best,

    Larry Pate
    Redondo Beach, California


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:21 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind

    Larry replied in part:

    <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis on
    "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others, have
    written about.>>

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or mindset
    or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior to the 'frame'
    approach?

    Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon (I'd
    appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I have moderate
    exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter suggest the
    're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that conclusion by offering
    a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ... and perhaps unintentionally
    depriving the observer from creating her/his own set of useful frames.

    Michael A

    Michael Ayers
    mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 12.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 12:49
    Larry:

    Although I didn't ask, I'd like copies of the materials you offered Michael.

    Fred Nickols
    8810 Woodgate Manor Ct
    Fort Myers, FL 33908

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    nickols@att.net


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-
    > DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 12:05 PM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal
    >
    > Michael Ayers asks a good question (re: Simon's concept of "design
    > activity"
    > versus Bolman & Deal's work on "reframing"), one that easily could take a
    > good book to fully answer. However, briefly, I'll say that I think the
    > value to Simon's distinction is that it tells us precisely why there is
    > such
    > variance in individual choices, and even inconsistencies within
    > individuals
    > in the choices we make. I see Simon as kind of this all-knowing, all-
    > seeing
    > guru who plops down on our planet for a time and who tells us in simple
    > terms why we're both screwing up and getting it right. I don't mean that
    > literally, of course, but metaphorically. He tells us people make
    > different
    > choices because they have different information and that they use the
    > information they have differently. How more elegant can it get? No
    > wonder
    > Simon is a Nobel Laureate (for his work in decision-making).
    >
    > But, hearing Simon's distinction or even agreeing with it is not enough.
    > If
    > Kurt Lewin was correct that, "there is nothing so practical as a good
    > theory," then the important thing is to go from understanding to action.
    > Knowing the essential components of decision-making does not in itself
    > prevent us from falling into common decision traps, or what has been
    > called
    > the "unwanted repetitive episodes" of faulty decision-making. And in that
    > is where Bolman & Deal's work on reframing, and even some of my own work
    > in
    > developing the ACES Decision-Making Technique, adds value. In short,
    > knowing is one thing; translating that knowledge into purposeful action is
    > another.
    >
    > Thus, in answer to your question, no, I don't think Simon's distinction is
    > any "better" or "worse" than what Bolman & Deal talk about, but I do think
    > the focus is quite different. It's like Simon pointed the way and now
    > Bolman & Deal are helping people to understand how to get there. The
    > various "frames" they talk about are but examples of the seemingly endless
    > varieties of possibilities. We might see it this way, we might see it
    > that.
    > By offering sets of possibilities people can see that their own initial
    > frame is not the only one, and not even necessarily the "best" one. It's
    > like living in Fargo your whole life and never knowing anything else
    > (i.e.,
    > single frame) versus having traveled all over the planet and seeing how
    > lots
    > of people in lots of different settings do things (i.e., multiple frames).
    > That, to me, is the value in exploring various frames, even if the limited
    > frames Bolman & Deal give us are at best only close approximations of any
    > particular frame we might hold at any particular point in time.
    >
    > Imagine, for example, a police officer with 12 years police experience who
    > hates his job, but who needs 20 years police service to receive full
    > retirement benefits. He might believe that he has only two choices --
    > either stay for another 8 years in a job he hates or quit and lose his
    > retirement. Now also imagine that a reason he thinks he can't quit is
    > that
    > he believes his wife will never move. With this "frame" he remains stuck
    > in
    > defensive avoidance (Janis & Mann), rather than moving toward vigilance.
    > What would it take to get unstuck? The answer is, something that helps
    > him
    > change the frame. As it turns out, this is not just a made-up example
    > it's
    > a real issue that was raised in one of my decision-making seminars. By
    > applying the ACES technique and looking at his assumptions ("wife will not
    > move") and counter-assumptions ("wife will move"), the police officer was
    > able to see things differently and get unstuck. While this example stems
    > from use of the ACES technique, the same could be said for the work of
    > Bolman & Deal or others who also encourage people to view things
    > differently. As Karl Weick says when he talks about mutating metaphors,
    > "Believing is seeing." The more we can understand about the various
    > lenses
    > people use for solving problems, the more prescriptive we can be when
    > helping people make more informed choices.
    >
    > Finally, Michael also asks for a good reference on Simon's work, and I
    > would
    > suggest either the original source or the "Decision Making" module that
    > Mike
    > Driver and I wrote for McGraw-Hill. Send me a mailing address and I'll be
    > glad to send a copy of the module to you. Same for my work on ACES, if
    > you're interested.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Larry Pate
    > Redondo Beach, California
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:21 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > Larry replied in part:
    >
    > <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis on
    > "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others, have
    > written about.>>
    >
    > Thanks for your thoughts!
    >
    > In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or mindset
    > or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior to the
    > 'frame'
    > approach?
    >
    > Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon (I'd
    > appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I have
    > moderate
    > exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter suggest the
    > 're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that conclusion by
    > offering
    > a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ... and perhaps unintentionally
    > depriving the observer from creating her/his own set of useful frames.
    >
    > Michael A
    >
    > Michael Ayers
    > mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    > -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 13.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 16:03
    Yes, of course. I'll be glad to send copies of the McGraw-Hill module on
    decision-making, along with materials on the ACES decision-making technique.
    Several people have written to ask for copies. If anyone else wants them,
    just send me a mailing address. Thanks.

    Best,

    Larry

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:49 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Larry:

    Although I didn't ask, I'd like copies of the materials you offered Michael.

    Fred Nickols
    8810 Woodgate Manor Ct
    Fort Myers, FL 33908

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    nickols@att.net


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-
    > DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 12:05 PM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal
    >
    > Michael Ayers asks a good question (re: Simon's concept of "design
    > activity" versus Bolman & Deal's work on "reframing"), one that easily
    > could take a good book to fully answer. However, briefly, I'll say
    > that I think the value to Simon's distinction is that it tells us
    > precisely why there is such
    > variance in individual choices, and even inconsistencies within
    > individuals
    > in the choices we make. I see Simon as kind of this all-knowing, all-
    > seeing
    > guru who plops down on our planet for a time and who tells us in simple
    > terms why we're both screwing up and getting it right. I don't mean that
    > literally, of course, but metaphorically. He tells us people make
    > different
    > choices because they have different information and that they use the
    > information they have differently. How more elegant can it get? No
    > wonder
    > Simon is a Nobel Laureate (for his work in decision-making).
    >
    > But, hearing Simon's distinction or even agreeing with it is not
    > enough. If Kurt Lewin was correct that, "there is nothing so practical
    > as a good theory," then the important thing is to go from
    > understanding to action. Knowing the essential components of
    > decision-making does not in itself prevent us from falling into common
    > decision traps, or what has been called
    > the "unwanted repetitive episodes" of faulty decision-making. And in that
    > is where Bolman & Deal's work on reframing, and even some of my own work
    > in
    > developing the ACES Decision-Making Technique, adds value. In short,
    > knowing is one thing; translating that knowledge into purposeful action is
    > another.
    >
    > Thus, in answer to your question, no, I don't think Simon's
    > distinction is any "better" or "worse" than what Bolman & Deal talk
    > about, but I do think the focus is quite different. It's like Simon
    > pointed the way and now Bolman & Deal are helping people to understand
    > how to get there. The various "frames" they talk about are but
    > examples of the seemingly endless varieties of possibilities. We
    > might see it this way, we might see it that. By offering sets of
    > possibilities people can see that their own initial frame is not the
    > only one, and not even necessarily the "best" one. It's like living
    > in Fargo your whole life and never knowing anything else (i.e.,
    > single frame) versus having traveled all over the planet and seeing how
    > lots
    > of people in lots of different settings do things (i.e., multiple frames).
    > That, to me, is the value in exploring various frames, even if the limited
    > frames Bolman & Deal give us are at best only close approximations of any
    > particular frame we might hold at any particular point in time.
    >
    > Imagine, for example, a police officer with 12 years police experience
    > who hates his job, but who needs 20 years police service to receive
    > full retirement benefits. He might believe that he has only two
    > choices -- either stay for another 8 years in a job he hates or quit
    > and lose his retirement. Now also imagine that a reason he thinks he
    > can't quit is that he believes his wife will never move. With this
    > "frame" he remains stuck in
    > defensive avoidance (Janis & Mann), rather than moving toward vigilance.
    > What would it take to get unstuck? The answer is, something that helps
    > him
    > change the frame. As it turns out, this is not just a made-up example
    > it's
    > a real issue that was raised in one of my decision-making seminars. By
    > applying the ACES technique and looking at his assumptions ("wife will not
    > move") and counter-assumptions ("wife will move"), the police officer was
    > able to see things differently and get unstuck. While this example stems
    > from use of the ACES technique, the same could be said for the work of
    > Bolman & Deal or others who also encourage people to view things
    > differently. As Karl Weick says when he talks about mutating metaphors,
    > "Believing is seeing." The more we can understand about the various
    > lenses
    > people use for solving problems, the more prescriptive we can be when
    > helping people make more informed choices.
    >
    > Finally, Michael also asks for a good reference on Simon's work, and I
    > would suggest either the original source or the "Decision Making"
    > module that Mike
    > Driver and I wrote for McGraw-Hill. Send me a mailing address and I'll be
    > glad to send a copy of the module to you. Same for my work on ACES, if
    > you're interested.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Larry Pate
    > Redondo Beach, California
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:21 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > Larry replied in part:
    >
    > <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis
    > on "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others,
    > have written about.>>
    >
    > Thanks for your thoughts!
    >
    > In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or
    > mindset or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior
    > to the 'frame' approach?
    >
    > Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon
    > (I'd appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I
    > have moderate exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter
    > suggest the 're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that
    > conclusion by offering
    > a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ... and perhaps unintentionally
    > depriving the observer from creating her/his own set of useful frames.
    >
    > Michael A
    >
    > Michael Ayers
    > mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    > -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 14.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 16:15
    (apologies for sending this to the whole group, but this is the only email
    I have for Larry!)

    Larry,

    If you could also send me a copy of the materials, I would be appreciative.

    Professor Schon Beechler
    Columbia Business School
    621B Oceanfront St.
    Long Beach NY 11561

    Many thanks.
    Schon




    Although I didn't ask, I'd like copies of the materials you offered Michael.

    Fred Nickols
    8810 Woodgate Manor Ct
    Fort Myers, FL 33908

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    nickols@att.net


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-
    > DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 12:05 PM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal
    >
    > Michael Ayers asks a good question (re: Simon's concept of "design
    > activity" versus Bolman & Deal's work on "reframing"), one that easily
    > could take a good book to fully answer. However, briefly, I'll say
    > that I think the value to Simon's distinction is that it tells us
    > precisely why there is such
    > variance in individual choices, and even inconsistencies within
    > individuals
    > in the choices we make. I see Simon as kind of this all-knowing, all-
    > seeing
    > guru who plops down on our planet for a time and who tells us in simple
    > terms why we're both screwing up and getting it right. I don't mean that
    > literally, of course, but metaphorically. He tells us people make
    > different
    > choices because they have different information and that they use the
    > information they have differently. How more elegant can it get? No
    > wonder
    > Simon is a Nobel Laureate (for his work in decision-making).
    >
    > But, hearing Simon's distinction or even agreeing with it is not
    > enough. If Kurt Lewin was correct that, "there is nothing so practical
    > as a good theory," then the important thing is to go from
    > understanding to action. Knowing the essential components of
    > decision-making does not in itself prevent us from falling into common
    > decision traps, or what has been called
    > the "unwanted repetitive episodes" of faulty decision-making. And in that
    > is where Bolman & Deal's work on reframing, and even some of my own work
    > in
    > developing the ACES Decision-Making Technique, adds value. In short,
    > knowing is one thing; translating that knowledge into purposeful action is
    > another.
    >
    > Thus, in answer to your question, no, I don't think Simon's
    > distinction is any "better" or "worse" than what Bolman & Deal talk
    > about, but I do think the focus is quite different. It's like Simon
    > pointed the way and now Bolman & Deal are helping people to understand
    > how to get there. The various "frames" they talk about are but
    > examples of the seemingly endless varieties of possibilities. We
    > might see it this way, we might see it that. By offering sets of
    > possibilities people can see that their own initial frame is not the
    > only one, and not even necessarily the "best" one. It's like living
    > in Fargo your whole life and never knowing anything else (i.e.,
    > single frame) versus having traveled all over the planet and seeing how
    > lots
    > of people in lots of different settings do things (i.e., multiple frames).
    > That, to me, is the value in exploring various frames, even if the limited
    > frames Bolman & Deal give us are at best only close approximations of any
    > particular frame we might hold at any particular point in time.
    >
    > Imagine, for example, a police officer with 12 years police experience
    > who hates his job, but who needs 20 years police service to receive
    > full retirement benefits. He might believe that he has only two
    > choices -- either stay for another 8 years in a job he hates or quit
    > and lose his retirement. Now also imagine that a reason he thinks he
    > can't quit is that he believes his wife will never move. With this
    > "frame" he remains stuck in
    > defensive avoidance (Janis & Mann), rather than moving toward vigilance.
    > What would it take to get unstuck? The answer is, something that helps
    > him
    > change the frame. As it turns out, this is not just a made-up example
    > it's
    > a real issue that was raised in one of my decision-making seminars. By
    > applying the ACES technique and looking at his assumptions ("wife will not
    > move") and counter-assumptions ("wife will move"), the police officer was
    > able to see things differently and get unstuck. While this example stems
    > from use of the ACES technique, the same could be said for the work of
    > Bolman & Deal or others who also encourage people to view things
    > differently. As Karl Weick says when he talks about mutating metaphors,
    > "Believing is seeing." The more we can understand about the various
    > lenses
    > people use for solving problems, the more prescriptive we can be when
    > helping people make more informed choices.
    >
    > Finally, Michael also asks for a good reference on Simon's work, and I
    > would suggest either the original source or the "Decision Making"
    > module that Mike
    > Driver and I wrote for McGraw-Hill. Send me a mailing address and I'll be
    > glad to send a copy of the module to you. Same for my work on ACES, if
    > you're interested.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Larry Pate
    > Redondo Beach, California
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:21 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > Larry replied in part:
    >
    > <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis
    > on "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others,
    > have written about.>>
    >
    > Thanks for your thoughts!
    >
    > In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or
    > mindset or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior
    > to the 'frame' approach?
    >
    > Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon
    > (I'd appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I
    > have moderate exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter
    > suggest the 're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that
    > conclusion by offering
    > a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ... and perhaps unintentionally
    > depriving the observer from creating her/his own set of useful frames.
    >
    > Michael A
    >
    > Michael Ayers
    > mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    > -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 15.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 16:25
    I had that original confusion also. But, if you "Reply" to the original
    message you can see Larry's email address right after "on behalf of Larry
    Pate".

    HTH
    Christie Mason

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU]On Behalf Of Schon Beechler

    (apologies for sending this to the whole group, but this is the only email
    I have for Larry!)