Discussion: View Thread

I am enjoying the discussion of how to build the better MBA (my
interpretation).
It is a neat coincidence that Siva's message came up in my mail just after I
finished a conversation with our graduate assistant Harald who is a student
in our MBA from Germany. He was telling me how, in his system, the
student is left with the choice to learn mainly on his or her own (not
literally,
but it is my translation). If they arrive at the exams ready and pass, then
the
lectures, labs and tutorials that are also available are for those who felt
they
needed them. That was said in the context that he sees our
American system being highly teacher-directed. (I call it spoon feeding; he
is far more polite to call it that.). Harald likes aspects of both our
systems, it seems. However,
I am left tonight with the self-imposed requirement to see if my hand is too
heavy
on that proverbial "spoon". I surely do not think any of us should be
inadvertently releasing to the future people whose independence of mind and
self-directed learning ability has been subordinated to our need to be
"in charge" of their knowledge development.

Thank you all for attention to this subject.

David



David S. Fearon, Ph.D.
Professor of Management
467 Vance Academic Center
Central Connecticut State University
New Britain, CT 06057
fearon@ccsu.edu

David Fearon et al,

I emphathize with your concern over whether you have
too heavy a spoon in teaching!

I came late to teaching, and even later to being
interested in teaching management. I was a manager
first, then later obtained an MBA (mostly because I
was working as a consultant, and wanted the
credential). I formed my opinions and ideas (and
maybe some skills) of management from what I observed
in my own managers and my experiences AS a manager.
When I began teaching management, I could not bring
myself to teach only what was in the textbooks,
because so much of it does not fit my experience (and
the experience of others), so much just seems to be
wrong. Since my advanced degree is in counseling
psychology, my natural bent, I began to teach in the
"discovery" mode, providing opportunities for students
to learn about management through some in-class
exercises, cases, and assignments to go out into the
community and conduct interviews with managers and
employees. I sometimes would give them extra credit
if they could find someone who would come and speak to
the class.

This is not spoon feeding at all, and it has brought
me much grief as an instructor. Only now are things
beginning to change so that my methods are more
acceptable. I always know there is room for
improvement in my approach, and I may have gone too
far from the "spoon feeding" approach. Feedback from
my U.S. students has been positive in the long run,
but I am still unsure.

Now, for the past 8 months, I have been trying to
teach Chinese college-age students about management,
and this semester the administration wanted me also to
teach management information systems. I am doing a
deja vu here, because these college students do not
like my methods; many of them say they are not
learning anything. However, upon further
investigation, I believe that much of that feeling
comes from the habits of "learning" that have been
instilled into them. It's spoon-feeding to the
extreme! Memorize, memorize, memorize! Regurgitate,
regurgitate, regurgitate! That "feels" like learning
to them. They are new to even thinking about
"process" or "learning to learn." So I am once again
having the pangs of wondering if I should just change.
The only trouble is, I cannot, or will not change. I
just never believed in spoon feeding. It was done to
me, and I never liked it; I wanted to participate!

I apologize for the length of this message; it was
sparked by this very healthy exchange about creating
MBA programs.

Edryce


--- "Fearon, David (Management)"
<Fearon@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> I am enjoying the discussion of how to build the
> better MBA (my
> interpretation).
> It is a neat coincidence that Siva's message came up
> in my mail just after I
> finished a conversation with our graduate assistant
> Harald who is a student
> in our MBA from Germany. He was telling me how, in
> his system, the
> student is left with the choice to learn mainly on
> his or her own (not
> literally,
> but it is my translation). If they arrive at the
> exams ready and pass, then
> the
> lectures, labs and tutorials that are also available
> are for those who felt
> they
> needed them. That was said in the context that he
> sees our
> American system being highly teacher-directed. (I
> call it spoon feeding; he
> is far more polite to call it that.). Harald likes
> aspects of both our
> systems, it seems. However,
> I am left tonight with the self-imposed requirement
> to see if my hand is too
> heavy
> on that proverbial "spoon". I surely do not think
> any of us should be
> inadvertently releasing to the future people whose
> independence of mind and
> self-directed learning ability has been subordinated
> to our need to be
> "in charge" of their knowledge development.
>
> Thank you all for attention to this subject.
>
> David
>
>
>
> David S. Fearon, Ph.D.
> Professor of Management
> 467 Vance Academic Center
> Central Connecticut State University
> New Britain, CT 06057
> fearon@ccsu.edu


__________________________________________________
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David, there are an increasing number of faculty which are working with
learners, avoiding that spoon-fed technique. I'm one of those faculty.

I use an amazing repertoire of learner research, learner led events,
presentations, papers, as well as text book work. These different teaching
techniques result in vastly different outcomes for the learner; at least
that's the feedback I get on course evaluations. In addition to the vastly
different formats chosen for learning exposure and learner experimentation
with the materials, I also have some of the work assigned to teams of
learners. This additional learning method results in learners exchanging
opinions, and something of their lense of looking becomes known to their
team mates as they share information.

This is all by way of saying that there are design alternatives which
foster an environment of creativity, having to dig for information, and
having to present projects in vastly different projects, using many
different methods of investigation.

I teach strategy at the graduate level, and these techniques result in not
only a knowledgeable learner, but one who has confidence in his/her ability
to influence, relay information and lead based on what they believe to be
true about the material they are working with.

Just thought I'd share a landscape through an entirely different lense.

Food for thought,

Linda



At 05:02 PM 10/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>I am enjoying the discussion of how to build the better MBA (my
>interpretation).
>It is a neat coincidence that Siva's message came up in my mail just after I
>finished a conversation with our graduate assistant Harald who is a student
>in our MBA from Germany. He was telling me how, in his system, the
>student is left with the choice to learn mainly on his or her own (not
>literally,
>but it is my translation). If they arrive at the exams ready and pass, then
>the
>lectures, labs and tutorials that are also available are for those who felt
>they
>needed them. That was said in the context that he sees our
>American system being highly teacher-directed. (I call it spoon feeding; he
>is far more polite to call it that.). Harald likes aspects of both our
>systems, it seems. However,
>I am left tonight with the self-imposed requirement to see if my hand is too
>heavy
>on that proverbial "spoon". I surely do not think any of us should be
>inadvertently releasing to the future people whose independence of mind and
>self-directed learning ability has been subordinated to our need to be
>"in charge" of their knowledge development.
>
>Thank you all for attention to this subject.
>
>David
>
>
>
>David S. Fearon, Ph.D.
>Professor of Management
>467 Vance Academic Center
>Central Connecticut State University
>New Britain, CT 06057
>fearon@ccsu.edu
>

David--

I like your thinking and would like to start a discussion on how people
are implementing a more learner-centered process.

I am trying to move in that direction, but doing it by baby steps within
the current educational paradigm. For example, I just finished a
syllabus for a leadership course that revolves around a self-selected
developmental project. However, I still have an assigned text (a
management book, actually) and some readings. I am always torn between
my conviction, based on the huge body of research in adult learning,
that adults learn (that is, internalize, retain and use) only what they
consider interesting and valuable, and the mandate to provide (impose on
them) a broad-based body of knowledge. I would, if I could, guage the
impact of my courses by measuring their knowledge, understanding and
skills one, two and five years from now rather than at the end of the
course.

Ruth

"Fearon, David (Management)" wrote:
>
> I am enjoying the discussion of how to build the better MBA (my
> interpretation).
> It is a neat coincidence that Siva's message came up in my mail just after I
> finished a conversation with our graduate assistant Harald who is a student
> in our MBA from Germany. He was telling me how, in his system, the
> student is left with the choice to learn mainly on his or her own (not
> literally,
> but it is my translation). If they arrive at the exams ready and pass, then
> the
> lectures, labs and tutorials that are also available are for those who felt
> they
> needed them. That was said in the context that he sees our
> American system being highly teacher-directed. (I call it spoon feeding; he
> is far more polite to call it that.). Harald likes aspects of both our
> systems, it seems. However,
> I am left tonight with the self-imposed requirement to see if my hand is too
> heavy
> on that proverbial "spoon". I surely do not think any of us should be
> inadvertently releasing to the future people whose independence of mind and
> self-directed learning ability has been subordinated to our need to be
> "in charge" of their knowledge development.
>
> Thank you all for attention to this subject.
>
> David
>
> David S. Fearon, Ph.D.
> Professor of Management
> 467 Vance Academic Center
> Central Connecticut State University
> New Britain, CT 06057
> fearon@ccsu.edu

Thank you for your email. I am away from the University until 30 October 2001.
If you query is urgent please contact:

technology-admissions@port.ac.uk or tel 023 92 842555

Best wishes
riz
******************************
Mrs Riz McNaught
Admissions Team Leader
Faculty of Technology Admissions Centre
University of Portsmouth

Edryce, you have put your finger in "it" - what Vaill tells us is the deeply
(sadly) etched stamp of institutional learning. Students don't know that
they are learning something, unless we validate it within the confines of
our "lessons". Perhaps we all can use some fresh thinking about how to
recognize
when were are truly BEING learners, not just being people who sometimes have
to learn something to get on with it.

David


-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 9:50 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: MBA


David Fearon et al,

I emphathize with your concern over whether you have
too heavy a spoon in teaching!

I came late to teaching, and even later to being
interested in teaching management. I was a manager
first, then later obtained an MBA (mostly because I
was working as a consultant, and wanted the
credential). I formed my opinions and ideas (and
maybe some skills) of management from what I observed
in my own managers and my experiences AS a manager.
When I began teaching management, I could not bring
myself to teach only what was in the textbooks,
because so much of it does not fit my experience (and
the experience of others), so much just seems to be
wrong. Since my advanced degree is in counseling
psychology, my natural bent, I began to teach in the
"discovery" mode, providing opportunities for students
to learn about management through some in-class
exercises, cases, and assignments to go out into the
community and conduct interviews with managers and
employees. I sometimes would give them extra credit
if they could find someone who would come and speak to
the class.

This is not spoon feeding at all, and it has brought
me much grief as an instructor. Only now are things
beginning to change so that my methods are more
acceptable. I always know there is room for
improvement in my approach, and I may have gone too
far from the "spoon feeding" approach. Feedback from
my U.S. students has been positive in the long run,
but I am still unsure.

Now, for the past 8 months, I have been trying to
teach Chinese college-age students about management,
and this semester the administration wanted me also to
teach management information systems. I am doing a
deja vu here, because these college students do not
like my methods; many of them say they are not
learning anything. However, upon further
investigation, I believe that much of that feeling
comes from the habits of "learning" that have been
instilled into them. It's spoon-feeding to the
extreme! Memorize, memorize, memorize! Regurgitate,
regurgitate, regurgitate! That "feels" like learning
to them. They are new to even thinking about
"process" or "learning to learn." So I am once again
having the pangs of wondering if I should just change.
The only trouble is, I cannot, or will not change. I
just never believed in spoon feeding. It was done to
me, and I never liked it; I wanted to participate!

I apologize for the length of this message; it was
sparked by this very healthy exchange about creating
MBA programs.

Edryce


--- "Fearon, David (Management)"
<Fearon@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
> I am enjoying the discussion of how to build the
> better MBA (my
> interpretation).
> It is a neat coincidence that Siva's message came up
> in my mail just after I
> finished a conversation with our graduate assistant
> Harald who is a student
> in our MBA from Germany. He was telling me how, in
> his system, the
> student is left with the choice to learn mainly on
> his or her own (not
> literally,
> but it is my translation). If they arrive at the
> exams ready and pass, then
> the
> lectures, labs and tutorials that are also available
> are for those who felt
> they
> needed them. That was said in the context that he
> sees our
> American system being highly teacher-directed. (I
> call it spoon feeding; he
> is far more polite to call it that.). Harald likes
> aspects of both our
> systems, it seems. However,
> I am left tonight with the self-imposed requirement
> to see if my hand is too
> heavy
> on that proverbial "spoon". I surely do not think
> any of us should be
> inadvertently releasing to the future people whose
> independence of mind and
> self-directed learning ability has been subordinated
> to our need to be
> "in charge" of their knowledge development.
>
> Thank you all for attention to this subject.
>
> David
>
>
>
> David S. Fearon, Ph.D.
> Professor of Management
> 467 Vance Academic Center
> Central Connecticut State University
> New Britain, CT 06057
> fearon@ccsu.edu


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Linda,

It would be nice to elaborate and share what you mean by "amazing
repertoire of learner research, learner led events, presentations, papers,
as well as text book work".

---

Maybe the challenge of Education resides in tweaking the process to
accommodate the individuals instead of seeking to norm and fit the
individuals to conform, following the process development from artisan to
industrialization and then into mass customization. "How does one serve to
bring out the unique product with the economies of scale of
industrialization"?

Cordially,

Esteban




____________________________________________________________________________
For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses.
Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/

I, too, have come to academia much later in life after a significant
amount of time actually "doing" management from the first level of
supervision to the departmental and Vice President levels. I am not a fan
of the "spoon feeding" approach to management education because of the
implications of one way communication vs. two way communication underlying
a student "engagement" model. If we are to engage our students in our
teaching we must give them ample opportunity to express their ideas and
thoughts, then weave those thoughts back into our teaching. However this
also requires that our students think "critically" something that does not
surface from the "broadcast" model of teaching. Thinking critically
implies a bit of grounding in the humanities where students learn the
power of writing and composition as well as the role of self-reflexivity
in their writing.

The approach that I have aligned myself with is that of "critical
management" grounded in the UK which allows for a critical epistemology in
management research. It is not my intent to be self gratuitous so please
do not take the following as such. The collected edition I was involved
with consists of a series of chapters that are really exemplars grounded
in critically based research. The book is entitled " Managing
Knowledge: Critical investigations on work and learning" Macmillan, 2000
by Prichard, Hull, Chumer, and Willmott.


Mike Chumer
Faculty Rutgers University Libraries
Adjunct Faculty School of Communication, Information, and Library Studies

Hi folks,

Herewith a series of comments on several of the recent postings. I'm really
excited by the enthusiasm with which people have engaged in this discussion
and hope to make some connected contribution:

Ruth H. Axelrod observed that:
> .... I am always torn between my conviction, based on the huge body of
research in adult learning,
> that adults learn (that is, internalize, retain and use) only what they
consider interesting and valuable,
> and the mandate to provide (impose on them) a broad-based body of
knowledge.
> I would, if I could, guage the > impact of my courses by measuring their
knowledge, understanding and
> skills one, two and five years from now rather than at the end of the
course.
>
I agree about the importance of relevance, but I also think that, if
management has pretensions to being a body of knowledge, we should not get
so focused on what the our students 'want' that we lose sight of the
importance of providing them with what they 'need'. I teach OB/managerial
psychology in our MBA programs(all part-time experienced managers) and there
are plenty of accoutants/engineers who see the subject (at least initially)
as 'common sense'. I use my program to demonstrate to them that it is not
common sense and that, indeed, sense in management is not so common.

In this regard, Michael Chumer says that:

> If we are to engage our students in our teaching we must give them ample
opportunity to express their ideas and
> thoughts, then weave those thoughts back into our teaching. However this
also requires that our students think "critically"
> something that does not surface from the "broadcast" model of teaching.
Thinking critically implies a bit of grounding in
> the humanities where students learn the power of writing and composition
as well as the role of self-reflexivity
> in their writing.
>
A core subject of our (MGSM) MBA program is a subject called 'Foundations of
Management Thought'. It is a course on the history of philospical thinking
and is specifically designed to encourage the students to think critically
about the material with which they are presented, both in the MBA and in
their workplaces more generally. We continue this approach in our other
humanities based subjects like OB and HRM.

If it is any help to Sigal Barsade, since he and his colleague are
considering what managers _should_ do, I have done research with a sample of
500 Australian managers which might be useful. The results show that, in
general, what the managers believe they _should_ do is manage very much in
the Fayol mould, but they find themselves managing in the Mintzberg mould -
there can be a significant gap between how experienced managers prefer to
manage and how they actually manage on a day to day basis. Here Tom Walsh
(I believe correctly) bemoans the demise of "Management by Walking Around".


I come back to my earlier observation that, if management has pretensions to
being a body of knowledge, we need to have a clear research base in order to
'profess' to our students. By all means encourage the experiential learning
consistent with adult learning principles, but let us give the students the
frameworks by which they can interpret and reflect on that experience. As
Kurt Lewin said, "There's nothing so practical as a good theory".

Best regards to all,

David


This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of the Macquarie Graduate School of Management.

Hello folks:

In the present debate, you may find the following paper
interesting (just follow the link):

http://papers.ssrn.com/paper.taf?abstract_id=283112

Thanks.

rajan gupta
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's, NF, Canada A1B 3X5
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

At 07:59 AM 10/13/2001 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>Herewith a series of comments on several of the recent postings. I'm really
>excited by the enthusiasm with which people have engaged in this discussion
>and hope to make some connected contribution:
>
>Ruth H. Axelrod observed that:
> > .... I am always torn between my conviction, based on the huge body of
>research in adult learning,
> > that adults learn (that is, internalize, retain and use) only what they
>consider interesting and valuable,
> > and the mandate to provide (impose on them) a broad-based body of
>knowledge.
> > I would, if I could, guage the > impact of my courses by measuring their
>knowledge, understanding and
> > skills one, two and five years from now rather than at the end of the
>course.
> >
>I agree about the importance of relevance, but I also think that, if
>management has pretensions to being a body of knowledge, we should not get
>so focused on what the our students 'want' that we lose sight of the
>importance of providing them with what they 'need'. I teach OB/managerial
>psychology in our MBA programs(all part-time experienced managers) and there
>are plenty of accoutants/engineers who see the subject (at least initially)
>as 'common sense'. I use my program to demonstrate to them that it is not
>common sense and that, indeed, sense in management is not so common.
>
>In this regard, Michael Chumer says that:
>
> > If we are to engage our students in our teaching we must give them ample
>opportunity to express their ideas and
> > thoughts, then weave those thoughts back into our teaching. However this
>also requires that our students think "critically"
> > something that does not surface from the "broadcast" model of teaching.
>Thinking critically implies a bit of grounding in
> > the humanities where students learn the power of writing and composition
>as well as the role of self-reflexivity
> > in their writing.
> >
>A core subject of our (MGSM) MBA program is a subject called 'Foundations of
>Management Thought'. It is a course on the history of philospical thinking
>and is specifically designed to encourage the students to think critically
>about the material with which they are presented, both in the MBA and in
>their workplaces more generally. We continue this approach in our other
>humanities based subjects like OB and HRM.
>
>If it is any help to Sigal Barsade, since he and his colleague are
>considering what managers _should_ do, I have done research with a sample of
>500 Australian managers which might be useful. The results show that, in
>general, what the managers believe they _should_ do is manage very much in
>the Fayol mould, but they find themselves managing in the Mintzberg mould -
>there can be a significant gap between how experienced managers prefer to
>manage and how they actually manage on a day to day basis. Here Tom Walsh
>(I believe correctly) bemoans the demise of "Management by Walking Around".
>
>
>I come back to my earlier observation that, if management has pretensions to
>being a body of knowledge, we need to have a clear research base in order to
>'profess' to our students. By all means encourage the experiential learning
>consistent with adult learning principles, but let us give the students the
>frameworks by which they can interpret and reflect on that experience. As
>Kurt Lewin said, "There's nothing so practical as a good theory".
>
>Best regards to all,
>
>David
>
>
>This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
>confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
>delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message are those
>of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of the
>Macquarie Graduate School of Management.