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Sorry Dutch, have to disagree. You wrote:

>Front-line managers manage either people or product.
>Mid-level managers manage processes.
>Upper-management manages ideas and concepts.

>As I progress from top to bottom notice that I began with the concrete and
>progressed to the abstract.

>I believe that leaders and managers deal with ideas at all levels, yet
>when a manager moves into the realm of managing ideas one of their sole
>functions, they are on the verge of becoming a leader.

Seems to me you are connecting leadership with a level or rank within an
organization. I wholeheartedly disagree.

To be a leader, you have to have someone following you. How do you get people
to follow? By appealing to their hearts and souls, by
enabling them to do things they couldn't have done before, by having a vision of
something greater than what "is", by aligning their values
to yours, by being the role model. This isn't managing ideas...it's working
with people.

We recently made a video tape to use in one of our leadership programs. I
walked around our location, had a camera stuck in about 30
people's faces, and asked them, "What do you look for in a leader?" ...and
didn't give them time to think about it. The overwhelming
responses:

- Someone who can communicate.
- Someone who has a vision, and a vision I can buy into (many mentions).
- Someone who listens.
- Someone who leads by example, is a role model (numerous mentions).
- Someone who operates with honesty and has integrity (NUMEROUS mentions).

Is this "managing ideas," or "managing people"? Neither. It's working WITH
people. Why else do we have so many informal leaders...the
team member everyone respects and FOLLOWS what he/she says...the person in the
volunteer organization (e.g. church, Boy Scouts) that takes
the unit beyond the members' expectations...the supervisor that everyone wants
to work for? It doesn't have anything to do with a level in
the organization or rank or status or managing ideas vs. people. It's heart,
soul, trustworthiness, integrity, communication, and vision.

Great discussion thread...let's keep it up.

********************************************************************************
***
George Ferguson Hoechst Marion Roussel, Inc.
Senior Consultant PO Box 9627 (J1-M1640)
Leadership Education & Development Kansas City, MO 64134-0627
Voice: 816-966-3028
Fax:: 816-966-2750 georgeferguson@hmri.com
********************************************************************************
***

On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Ferguson, George, HMR/US wrote:

> Sorry Dutch, have to disagree. You wrote:
>
> >Front-line managers manage either people or product.
> >Mid-level managers manage processes.
> >Upper-management manages ideas and concepts.

NOTE: The descriptor I used is either manager or managment, not leaders
and leadership.

/clipped/

> - Someone who can communicate.
> - Someone who has a vision, and a vision I can buy into (many mentions).
> - Someone who listens.
> - Someone who leads by example, is a role model (numerous mentions).
> - Someone who operates with honesty and has integrity (NUMEROUS mentions).

What is vision but an idea or concept. Through communication, vision is
expressed, feedback on the vision is received and HEARD, the vision is
either reinforced or refined through an interative process until it
becomes imbedded into the beliefs of organization.

ALSO NOTE: That I had to shift emphasis from manager to management as I
moved from mid-to upper level because I could not generalize and say
leaders. From my readings on the subject there seem to be few risk-takers
at the executive level which is also indicative of a leader.



> Is this "managing ideas," or "managing people"? Neither. It's working WITH
> people. Why else do we have so many informal leaders...the
> team member everyone respects and FOLLOWS what he/she says...the person in the
> volunteer organization (e.g. church, Boy Scouts) that takes
> the unit beyond the members' expectations...the supervisor that everyone wants
> to work for? It doesn't have anything to do with a level in
> the organization or rank or status or managing ideas vs. people. It's heart,
> soul, trustworthiness, integrity, communication, and vision.

The ancient Greeks summed this all up with three words: Ethos
(credibility), Pathos (emotion), and Logos (logic). In my estimation, we
have done a darned good job in developing people with ethos and logos, but
darn little pathos to work in organizations. In general, the education
system is losing its capacity to deal with pathos which allows for the
human connection needed to succeed.

______________________
Great Optimism,

Dutch Driver
Dept. of Communication
McMurry University
Abilene, TX
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu

For many years, I have been training staffing (recruiting and selection)
professionals and line managers to use a statement of qualifications model
that I learned 15 years ago when undergoing a certification program for
staffing people. The model is designed as follows:

Basic requirements: (eg. education, experience, skill, certification,
language, technology proficiency, etc.)
Rated requirements:
1. Knowledge (multiple factors)
2. Ability (eg. ability to plan, organize, delegate, write effective
business plans, communicate effectively orally and in writing, etc. etc.)
3. Personal Suitability (eg. reliability, dependability, effective
interpersonal relationships, leadership, intiative, creativity, etc. etc.)
Typically, we use the header "personal suitability" to group those
qualifications that can only be demonstrated over time and that need to be
validated through peer/subordinate/superior references and observation.

(Just thought I'd add this little bit on the subject of leadership and
management.)



Geoge ferguson wrote:

>>As I progress from top to bottom notice that I began with the concrete and
>>progressed to the abstract.
>
>>I believe that leaders and managers deal with ideas at all levels, yet
>>when a manager moves into the realm of managing ideas one of their sole
>>functions, they are on the verge of becoming a leader.
>
>Seems to me you are connecting leadership with a level or rank within an
> organization. I wholeheartedly disagree.
>
>To be a leader, you have to have someone following you. How do you get people
> to follow? By appealing to their hearts and souls, by
>enabling them to do things they couldn't have done before, by having a
vision of
> something greater than what "is", by aligning their values
>to yours, by being the role model. This isn't managing ideas...it's working
> with people.
>
>We recently made a video tape to use in one of our leadership programs. I
> walked around our location, had a camera stuck in about 30
>people's faces, and asked them, "What do you look for in a leader?" ...and
> didn't give them time to think about it. The overwhelming
>responses:
>
>- Someone who can communicate.
>- Someone who has a vision, and a vision I can buy into (many mentions).
>- Someone who listens.
>- Someone who leads by example, is a role model (numerous mentions).
>- Someone who operates with honesty and has integrity (NUMEROUS mentions).
>
>Is this "managing ideas," or "managing people"? Neither. It's working WITH
> people. Why else do we have so many informal leaders...the
>team member everyone respects and FOLLOWS what he/she says...the person in the
> volunteer organization (e.g. church, Boy Scouts) that takes
>the unit beyond the members' expectations...the supervisor that everyone wants
> to work for? It doesn't have anything to do with a level in
>the organization or rank or status or managing ideas vs. people. It's heart,
> soul, trustworthiness, integrity, communication, and vision.
>


Amery Boyer
5688 North Street
HALIFAX NS B3K 1N4
Tel: 429-9217
Fax: 429-9217
e-mail: amery@fox.nstn.ca
homepage: http://fox.nstn.ca/~amery