Discussion: View Thread

As a customer of B-schools, I would like to share some of my experiences.
First, some background. I have an AB in math, an MS and ABD in Industrial
Engineering, and an MBA (almost). The schools range from Ivy League for AB to
the B-school of a local state-supported university. I suspect (and hope) that
most of my comments are a result of the particular B-school I attended. But I
suspect that other schools may also exhibit some of the same traits.

First, I found the MBA program to be very repetitive. It seemed to me that I
took the same course 5 or 6 times. The first round was in prerequisite
undergraduate courses that I found to be a complete waste of my time, but they
did provide the school a tidy bit of revenue. Then, mostly the same material
was repeated as required graduate level courses. All this repetition came from
departments called Accounting, Economics, and Finance. In my mind, the material
might have stretched into two courses.

Second, but building on the first, the majority of the course work was
structured as if the other courses did not exist. Everything that was needed
for a particular course was packaged in that course. What a waste of time and
what a terrible subliminal message to be sending to students. Out here in the
business world, I don't care where or how an employee gained a particular skill,
but I do expect that employees can piece together bits of knowledge and apply
them to whatever problems they face. The B-school I attended didn't seem to
grasp this concept.

BTW - When I finished all the required graduate work, the school said they would
not grant me a degree until I took two more undergraduate courses! The first
course could have been named "Hello, I'm a Computer." To me, a computer is just
another tool that I had, at that time, been using for more than 20 years. They
did not see any course in my transcripts that specifically taught me how to use
a computer, so they assumed that I could not. The second course had 12-14
various individual main concepts, all but two of which were covered at the
graduate level in one or more of the required courses. But no single course had
all these elements. The stated reason they did not grant me a degree had
something to do with the school's accreditation. (What is the big deal about
accreditation? When I got my AB, my Ivy league school was not accredited.) I
can't help feeling that there was a lot of "Cash Cow" thinking involved.

There was only one course that might have required any integration of the other
material. This course was called Business Policy and was a joke. This course
consisted of reading about a dozen cases and writing 2-3 page papers. I had
more demanding work in high school. Incidentally, I took this same course at
another university as part of my MS work. At least there, we had to develop a
recommendation for the use of an individual's piece of property near the campus.

Many of the courses seemed to be structured to make the instructor's job easier.
Can you imagine a take-home, multiple choice exam in an investment course, where
many of the problems were numerical? Many of the answers were close, but not
exactly equal to any of the multiple choices. Different approaches to rounding
to even cents or dollars can make this type of exam very unfair. But it sure
was easy to grade using a machine grader!

OK - So much for my bitches. What to do? B-schools could do away with the
individual departments, at least for the core course material, and develop a 6-8
semester sequence of foundation material. For lack of a better name, how about
Course 1, Course 2, ... Course N. In this way the concentration could be on
developing a set of experiences and bag of tools necessary in a business
environment.

Also, how about some sort of integrating tasking that mimics real world
situations? Here is an example: "Assume that a long lost rich uncle just
passed away and left you $1M, (or some such amount). What should you do with
the money and why?" This requires the student to frame the structure of the
problem, just as in real life. Individuals who grasp the concepts of the B-
school curriculum should be able to handle this type of assignment. Most of my
fellow students at the B-school I attended wouldn't have the foggiest idea where
to start.

Lastly, why not have an exam at the end that focuses on integrating all the
material? If the student can demonstrate a grasp of the fundamentals and an
ability to use them together to solve situations that do not derive from only a
single discipline, then the student should be granted a degree. If not, no
degree. As an employer this is what I hope for in newly hired employees. How
very often I am disappointed.

OK all of you on the list, have at me. I just put on my asbestos raincoat.

Don Kleist kleist@gdls.com
"Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess!

In response to Don Kleist's critique of MBA curricula:

The points are well taken. Although my institution is not looking at
reforms to answer these, I know several schools are
developing semester long experience-based courses which combine the
diverse concepts (Accounting, Finance, Economics, etc.) into one
comprehensive whole. The University of Oregon (Eugene) is one such
example (If I correctly understand what is being done there). While
your experiences, Don, are typical in the main stream, be assured
that B-schools are undergoing a transformation tailored to meet some of
the needs you raised.
Thanks, Don, for the "whack in the side of the head."
Others on the list have more intimate and practical experience in
this than I. What response do you (all) have for Don?
Steve Horner, Assistant Professor
Department of Economics/Business
Bethany College
421 N. First
Lindsborg, KS 67456
913-227-3311 X8218

All things are ready if our minds be so.
- Henry V, Act 4, Scene 3

Donald E. Kleist <kleist@SMTP-GW.GDLS.COM> wrote:

>>... If the student can demonstrate a
grasp of the fundamentals and an ability
to use them together to solve situations
that do not derive from only a single
discipline, then the student should be
granted a degree. If not, no degree...<<

Colleges and Universities should not withhold degrees to prevent
employers from hiring the wrong people. It is the employer's job
to know who to hire, not the university's. On the job success
depends on aspects of an employee's job fitness that are
often unrelated to educational achievements.

>>... As an employer this is what I hope
for in newly hired employees. How very
often I am disappointed...<<

Could it be that you place too much emphasis on poor success predictors?

Bob

Bob Gately <gately@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:

Donald E. Kleist <kleist@SMTP-GW.GDLS.COM> wrote:

>>... If the student can demonstrate a
grasp of the fundamentals and an ability
to use them together to solve situations
that do not derive from only a single
discipline, then the student should be
granted a degree. If not, no degree...<<

>Colleges and Universities should not withhold degrees to prevent
>employers from hiring the wrong people. It is the employer's job
>to know who to hire, not the university's. On the job success
>depends on aspects of an employee's job fitness that are
>often unrelated to educational achievements.

You are correct that companies bear the resposnibility for determining who to
hire. But you miss my point. Companies should expect a certain level of
capability in an individual who has earned an MBA. My cited statement is what I
think that level of capability should be.

All that many of my colleagues in B-school demonstrated was an ability to place
course material in short term memory long enough to pass the final exam for that
course. A week later, almost all of that "learning" was gone. Also, few could
piece together material from more that one course and apply it to a given
situation.

Here is a question for list members from academia: What, in terms relevant to
industry rather than academia, does an MBA from your institution mean? What
sort of capabilities should we expect to find in MBA graduates?

Don Kleist

(Hi Don)

Donald E Kleist <kleist@SMTP-GW.GDLS.COM> wrote:

>>... You are correct that companies bear
the responsibility for determining who to
hire. But you miss my point...<

Happens sometimes.

>>... Companies should expect a certain
level of capability in an individual
who has earned an MBA...<<

Degrees indicate a minimal level of knowledge and understanding.
Applying that knowledge and understanding effectively in a
particular corporate culture is another thing entirely. Companies
hire on competence, i.e., degrees and GPA's, etc., but fire on
job fit. The employee just didn't fit in.

>>... My cited statement is what I
think that level of capability should be...<<

Why? All students are not equally capable before their studies so
why would we expect the graduates to be equally capable?

>>... All that many of my colleagues
in B-school demonstrated was an ability
to place course material in short term
memory long enough to pass the final
exam for that course...<<

I agree, and for many students that is all they want--the degree.
Unfortunately, we cannot make all students into learned people.

>>... A week later, almost all of that
"learning" was gone. Also, few could
piece together material from more that
one course and apply it to a given situation...<<

I agree, but it is up to the employer to uncover these traits in
their applicants.

>>... Here is a question for list members
from academia: What, in terms relevant to
industry rather than academia, does an MBA
from your institution mean? ...<<

I am civil engineer and I found the MBA to be fastest route to
learning what it is I needed to know to be a business manager.
I already knew about project managing but it is the business end I needed
to know.

Bob

If I can step in on Bob and Donald's discussion, I cannot understand why a
B-school would want to put a product on the market with known defective
aspects in regards to quality.

While acknowledging the differences, medical schools have a range of
doctors, but there is a floor on the competency level of the doctor. If I
had a choice, I would prefer that the medical school determing the
competency of the doctor before I choose to hire them to work on my
anatomy or that of my loved ones. I think business should expect some
level of performance in an expensive product that they are about to buy
(hire).

I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?

______________________
Great Optimism,

Dutch Driver
Dept. of Communication
McMurry University
Abilene, TX
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu

Dutch Driver wrote:

>medical schools have a range of doctors, but there is a floor
>on the competency level of the doctor.
>I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
>certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
>the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
>are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?

Nice analogy...hadn't thought of that.

(I'm brainstorming and thinking as I write this, so please bear with me.)

Then again, medical science and engineering are "hard" topics. There's a right way to treat a set a broken bone, and certain rules to
building a bridge. In business, there really is no "one best way"...it's a "soft art" and not a "hard science." For any particular
problem/issue/opportunity there could be three or more solutions. Plus, you can't really give a written "test" on the issues of marketing
a product, handling past dues, developing a strategic plan for a business, etc. You have to do it in the real world.

For my MBA we had a "capstone" course called Business Policy that was supposed to integrate all of the relevant disciplines. Using Harvard
cases we studied problems, developed solutions, etc....and never did find a "best" way...some better ways, yes, never a best.

Maybe what you're calling for is a take-off on the medical internship. To receive the MBA takes a 2 year internship (after the classes are
taken) at a business actually running it...low pay, long hours, with a tutor or mentor guiding your every step.

Interesting thread.

George Ferguson
georgeferguson@hmri.com

Dutch Driver <ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu> wrote:

>>... I cannot understand why a B-school
would want to put a product on the market
with known defective aspects in regards to quality...<<

What is defective for Company A may not be defective for Company B.
And even more disturbing is that a successful employee at Company A
may not be a successful employee at Company B. If education were
the be all and end all for managers, MBA's would be universally
recognized as great managers of people. A manager without people
skills before an MBA will just be a well-educated manager
without people skills after the MBA. If employers think
the MBA degree guarantees that the holder will be a
competent manager of people they are sadly mistaken.

>>... medical schools have a range of
doctors, but there is a floor on the
competency level of the doctor...<<

An important problem with doctors, if you can believe the study,
is that doctors who do not develop a rapport with their patients
are sued more often than doctors who do develop a rapport. My point
is that what we see as incompetence is often something else.

In most cases when an employee is not successful in the job, the
missing component is not education, nor skill, nor knowledge.
A poorly performing MBA passed all the screening steps to ensure
these criteria we satisfied. The missing component is often related
to the employee's personality and whether or not the employee
is well-suited for the job, i.e., the employee does not have job fit.

B-Schools cannot determine whether or not their graduates will be
successful employees since the B-Schools do not know what it is the
companies need relative to the demands of the job.

>>... I would prefer that the medical
school determine the competency of the
doctor before I choose to hire them to
work on my anatomy or that of my loved ones...<<

I do believe that doctors must pass their state medical exams before
they can practice medicine? Even if they fail, they still have their
degree.

>>... I think business should expect some
level of performance in an expensive
product that they are about to buy (hire)...<<

Since businesses don't buy the product of a University I think we
cannot hold the University responsible for the hiring mistakes of
employers.

>>... I am sure that civil engineers
have to meet some professional
certification standards,
why not MBAs? ...<<

In most states, engineers must pass a 16-hour exam before they can
be licensed. Every graduate engineer does not become a licensed PE
(Professional Engineer). There are many jobs that do not require a PE
and if all graduate engineers could pass the PE then we would not
need the exam, we could just rely on the degree.

>>... And, why shouldn't B-Schools
be the body responsible for applying
those standards to MBAs? ...<<

Professional licensing is to protect the health and welfare of the public.
How do MBA's impact health and welfare? Yes, they can make
stupid decisions but there are other licensed professionals that
protect the health and welfare should the MBA screw up.

>>... And if they are not the ones,
who should it be? The Market? ..<<

Maybe B-Schools ought to educate and train their students in
how to hire the right people for the job so they are not
saddled with under performing employees?

Bob

+----------------------------+
| Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA |
+----------------------------+----------------------+
| GATELY CONSULTING (508) 473-0955 |
| 115 Dutcher Street Fax (508) 634-0670 |
| Hopedale, MA 01747-1006 Toll Free (800) 478-8117 |
| http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/gately/ |
+---------------------------------------------------+

Dutch

I find it hard to believe that you think that Medical schools are any better
than MBA programs at ensuring a good quality product. Surely you do not let
just any doctor operate on you or your family. I know I am very particular.
I will interview (subtly, of course) and let them treat minor problems
before they become my family doctor.

Glenn




At 07:33 AM 2/25/97 -0600, you wrote:
>If I can step in on Bob and Donald's discussion, I cannot understand why a
>B-school would want to put a product on the market with known defective
>aspects in regards to quality.
>
>While acknowledging the differences, medical schools have a range of
>doctors, but there is a floor on the competency level of the doctor. If I
>had a choice, I would prefer that the medical school determing the
>competency of the doctor before I choose to hire them to work on my
>anatomy or that of my loved ones. I think business should expect some
>level of performance in an expensive product that they are about to buy
>(hire).
>
>I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
>certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
>the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
>are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?
>
>______________________
>Great Optimism,
>
>Dutch Driver
>Dept. of Communication
>McMurry University
>Abilene, TX
>ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu
>

W. Glenn Rowe
Faculty of Business Administration
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's, NF, Canada, A1B 3X5
709 737 4363
709 737 7999 (Fax)

ASAC 97 is being held in St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada from May 31 to
June 3, 1997. St. John's is the oldest city in North America and is only 8
miles west of Cape Spear, the most easterly point of North America. Come
join us at ASAC 97 and help us celebrate the 500th anniversary of the
arrival of John Cabot to Newfoundland in 1497.

To George and Dutch

Is it possible that a lot of the problems with MBA grads and Business School
Grads may be that we have succumbed to market pressures too much. Example,
we have departmentalized BSchools so much that the only course many Bschool
grads and MBAs get where they have to think of the organization as a whole
is Strategic Management. We drive our students to be accountants,
marketers, HR specialists, production experts, finance experts and then just
before graduation we subject them to a semester where they try to wrap their
specialist trained brains around the idea of a whole organization. This has
been driven by the market place as they want more & more specialists in
their firms. Then this is exacerbated by the cry to make our courses more
practical which for most people means make your graduates able to do their
job in my firm on their first day. Given that firm specific knowledge is
necessary to achieve better than normal performance what these firms are
reeally asking for is that we teach our graduates to lead them to normal
performance not above normal performance. We as business teachers have to
educate practitioners that a "good theory" is very practical so that with
good theory and subsequent firm specific knowledge they can lead their firms
to above normal performance. This is what we have missed in our teaching as
we have been driven by the market to be more "practical." In one sense we
have become very impractical because what we teach is only good for solving
this week's problem but not good for solving problems over several years.
This makes what we teach very impractical in the long run as we try to make
it practical in the sense that organizations want.

Glenn

At 08:07 AM 2/25/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Dutch Driver wrote:
>
>>medical schools have a range of doctors, but there is a floor
>>on the competency level of the doctor.
>>I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
>>certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
>>the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
>>are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?
>
>Nice analogy...hadn't thought of that.
>
>(I'm brainstorming and thinking as I write this, so please bear with me.)
>
>Then again, medical science and engineering are "hard" topics. There's a
right way to treat a set a broken bone, and certain rules to
>building a bridge. In business, there really is no "one best way"...it's a
"soft art" and not a "hard science." For any particular
>problem/issue/opportunity there could be three or more solutions. Plus,
you can't really give a written "test" on the issues of marketing
>a product, handling past dues, developing a strategic plan for a business,
etc. You have to do it in the real world.
>
>For my MBA we had a "capstone" course called Business Policy that was
supposed to integrate all of the relevant disciplines. Using Harvard
>cases we studied problems, developed solutions, etc....and never did find a
"best" way...some better ways, yes, never a best.
>
>Maybe what you're calling for is a take-off on the medical internship. To
receive the MBA takes a 2 year internship (after the classes are
>taken) at a business actually running it...low pay, long hours, with a
tutor or mentor guiding your every step.
>
>Interesting thread.
>
> George Ferguson
> georgeferguson@hmri.com
>

W. Glenn Rowe
Faculty of Business Administration
Memorial University of Newfoundland
St. John's, NF, Canada, A1B 3X5
709 737 4363
709 737 7999 (Fax)

ASAC 97 is being held in St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada from May 31 to
June 3, 1997. St. John's is the oldest city in North America and is only 8
miles west of Cape Spear, the most easterly point of North America. Come
join us at ASAC 97 and help us celebrate the 500th anniversary of the
arrival of John Cabot to Newfoundland in 1497.

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Glenn Rowe wrote:

> Dutch
>
> I find it hard to believe that you think that Medical schools are any better
> than MBA programs at ensuring a good quality product. Surely you do not let
> just any doctor operate on you or your family. I know I am very particular.
> I will interview (subtly, of course) and let them treat minor problems
> before they become my family doctor.

Yes. But the doctor has credentials that are awarded to them before we
are able to begin the interviewing process.

I am also leary of trying to train students to meet the particular needs
of a singular business, and it is not only the business that is
responsible for job fit. The student/employee sends out resumes thereby
self-selecting who they want to work for and what they want to do when
they get there.

Bob is right about the necessity of developing a rapport with
patients/customers, which is good for my profession--communication. Yet,
for those who have received their MBAs how much time was spent developing
communication skills? Like intensive training in interpersonal and group
skills? Or was it just assumed that this skills would develop due to the
nature of the assignments given?

______________________
Great Optimism,

Dutch Driver
Dept. of Communication
McMurry University
Abilene, TX
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu

>>... Dutch Driver <ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu> wrote:

>>... Yes. But the doctor has credentials that
are awarded to them before we are able to
begin the interviewing process...<<

If that is the type of credential that presumes on-the-job success,
then employers ought to interview MBA's who have Ph.D.'s.

>>... I am also leary of trying
to train students to meet the
particular needs of a singular
business...<<

No school can afford to do this unless it is a company school.

>>... and it is not only the business
that is responsible for job fit...<<

Few managers can determine Job Fit so what they evaluate
is the applicant???s qualifications, education, past employment,
etc., but not job fit. Chuck Russell on page 25 of his book
"RIGHT PERSON-RIGHT JOB; GUESS OR KNOW, The Breakthrough
Technologies of Performance Information" writes:

"Job Fit is the degree to which the candidate???s
cognitive abilities, interests, and personality
dynamics fit those required by???the???position."

Only the employer is in a position too know what is required for an
employee to be successful on the job.

How does a B-School improve a job applicant's cognitive abilities?
It can't. In fact, some student's cognitive abilities are too high
for many jobs.

How does a B-School impact a job applicant's interests? It can't.

How does a B-School impact a job applicant's personality? It can't.

The point is that B-Schools are not in a position to know or influence
a student's chance of having job fit, therefore, B-Schools ought to help
students understand themselves and what drives other peoples' behavior.
Only when we understand ourselves can we hope to understand others. Too
many MBA's don't understand themselves let alone others.

>>... The student/employee sends out
resumes thereby self-selecting who
they want to work for and what they
want to do when they get there...<<

Yes, but is the employer required to hire the applicant? Of course not.

>>... for those who have received their
MBAs how much time was spent developing
communication skills? ...<<

There is more to having job fit than "knowing" how to communicate
effectively. We must communicate, not just know how to do it. Much of
our success depends on our behavior and changing our behavior is very
difficult to do and it is unlikely that an MBA program will have much
impact on most students' future on the job behaviors.

Yes, B-Schools can provide opportunities to do presentations and oral
arguments, and impart skills and knowledge, but students' future on
the job success will be greatly impacted not by their classroom
behaviors but by their on the job behavior while under pressure
and while stressed.

>>... Like intensive training in
interpersonal and group skills? ...<<

You can lead your students to the fountain of knowledge but you
cannot make them alter their behavior.

>>... Or was it just assumed that
this skills would develop due to the
nature of the assignments given? ...<<

B-Schools know or should know that all they can do is present the knowledge
and it is up to the students whether or not to accept it
and use it later.


Bob

+----------------------------+
| Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA |
+----------------------------+-----------------------+
| GATELY CONSULTING (508) 473-0955 |
| 115 Dutcher Street Fax (508) 634-0670 |
| Hopedale, MA 01747-1006 Toll Free (800) 478-8117 |
| http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/gately/ |
+----------------------------------------------------+

Bob Gately wrote:

>How does a B-School improve a job applicant's cognitive abilities?
>It can't. In fact, some student's cognitive abilities are too high
>for many jobs.

My undergrad, a BBA in Economics, taught me a discipline and tactics. My MBA experience taught me to think...more wholistically,
strategically, and "integratively" (if that's a word). Agreed, it's not the degree that does it...it's the student. The program provided
the opportunity and the coaching.

George Ferguson
georgeferguson@hmri.com

(Hello George)

George Ferguson <georgeferguson@hmri.com? wrote:

>>... My MBA experience taught me to
think...wholistically...strategically
...it's not the degree that does it...
it's the student. The program provided
the opportunity and the coaching...<<

Yes, and if a student is willing to take advantage of the opportunity
for personal growth, all the better, but to expect most students to
take this personal growth step is expecting too much.

Bob

+----------------------------+
| Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA |
+----------------------------+-----------------------+
| GATELY CONSULTING (508) 473-0955 |
| 115 Dutcher Street Fax (508) 634-0670 |
| Hopedale, MA 01747-1006 Toll Free (800) 478-8117 |
| http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/gately/ |
+----------------------------------------------------+