An interesting discussion! There is a subgroup of the Amer Education
Research Assoc called (Division I): Education in the Professions, wherein
people sit around arguing about just such issues as discussed in this Digest
thread. AERA meets soon in Chicago and just before there is a conference on
Cyber Certification of Professionals at the UI Chicago Circle Med School,
3/22-23. People from arch, med, military, aviation, law will be there--but
not mgt (as listed).
Along these lines, I would be interested in starting a journal, maybe just a
cyberzine, called "The Professions". It would have articles written BY
professionals FOR professionals. Academics could contribute but only if the
submissions were accompanied by their state registration numbers, which
could cause a problem for people expert in mgt because there is no
certification--except for earning a First Professional Degree (have we
forgotten THAT certificate?--degrees used to be licenses to practice).
Anyway, NO sociologists allowed. Anyone interested?
At 12:26 AM 2/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>There are 6 messages totalling 369 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Musings of a B-School Customer (5)
> 2. Call for Contributors: the Pfeiffer ANNUALS!
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:33:34 -0600
>From: Dutch Driver <
ddriver@CS1.MCM.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Musings of a B-School Customer
>
>If I can step in on Bob and Donald's discussion, I cannot understand why a
>B-school would want to put a product on the market with known defective
>aspects in regards to quality.
>
>While acknowledging the differences, medical schools have a range of
>doctors, but there is a floor on the competency level of the doctor. If I
>had a choice, I would prefer that the medical school determing the
>competency of the doctor before I choose to hire them to work on my
>anatomy or that of my loved ones. I think business should expect some
>level of performance in an expensive product that they are about to buy
>(hire).
>
>I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
>certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
>the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
>are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?
>
>______________________
>Great Optimism,
>
>Dutch Driver
>Dept. of Communication
>McMurry University
>Abilene, TX
>
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:07:31 -0600
>From: "Ferguson, George, HMR/US" <
georgeferguson@MMD.COM>
>Subject: Re: Musings of a B-School Customer
>
>Dutch Driver wrote:
>
>>medical schools have a range of doctors, but there is a floor
>>on the competency level of the doctor.
>>I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
>>certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
>>the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
>>are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?
>
>Nice analogy...hadn't thought of that.
>
>(I'm brainstorming and thinking as I write this, so please bear with me.)
>
>Then again, medical science and engineering are "hard" topics. There's a
right way to treat a set a broken bone, and certain rules to
>building a bridge. In business, there really is no "one best way"...it's a
"soft art" and not a "hard science." For any particular
>problem/issue/opportunity there could be three or more solutions. Plus,
you can't really give a written "test" on the issues of marketing
>a product, handling past dues, developing a strategic plan for a business,
etc. You have to do it in the real world.
>
>For my MBA we had a "capstone" course called Business Policy that was
supposed to integrate all of the relevant disciplines. Using Harvard
>cases we studied problems, developed solutions, etc....and never did find a
"best" way...some better ways, yes, never a best.
>
>Maybe what you're calling for is a take-off on the medical internship. To
receive the MBA takes a 2 year internship (after the classes are
>taken) at a business actually running it...low pay, long hours, with a
tutor or mentor guiding your every step.
>
>Interesting thread.
>
> George Ferguson
>
georgeferguson@hmri.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:25:55 -0500
>From: Bob Gately <
gately@COMPUSERVE.COM>
>Subject: Re: Musings of a B-School Customer
>
>Dutch Driver <
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu> wrote:
>
>>>... I cannot understand why a B-school
>would want to put a product on the market
>with known defective aspects in regards to quality...<<
>
>What is defective for Company A may not be defective for Company B.
>And even more disturbing is that a successful employee at Company A
>may not be a successful employee at Company B. If education were
>the be all and end all for managers, MBA's would be universally
>recognized as great managers of people. A manager without people
>skills before an MBA will just be a well-educated manager
>without people skills after the MBA. If employers think
>the MBA degree guarantees that the holder will be a
>competent manager of people they are sadly mistaken.
>
>>>... medical schools have a range of
>doctors, but there is a floor on the
>competency level of the doctor...<<
>
>An important problem with doctors, if you can believe the study,
>is that doctors who do not develop a rapport with their patients
>are sued more often than doctors who do develop a rapport. My point
>is that what we see as incompetence is often something else.
>
>In most cases when an employee is not successful in the job, the
>missing component is not education, nor skill, nor knowledge.
>A poorly performing MBA passed all the screening steps to ensure
>these criteria we satisfied. The missing component is often related
>to the employee's personality and whether or not the employee
>is well-suited for the job, i.e., the employee does not have job fit.
>
>B-Schools cannot determine whether or not their graduates will be
>successful employees since the B-Schools do not know what it is the
>companies need relative to the demands of the job.
>
>>>... I would prefer that the medical
>school determine the competency of the
>doctor before I choose to hire them to
>work on my anatomy or that of my loved ones...<<
>
>I do believe that doctors must pass their state medical exams before
>they can practice medicine? Even if they fail, they still have their
>degree.
>
>>>... I think business should expect some
>level of performance in an expensive
>product that they are about to buy (hire)...<<
>
>Since businesses don't buy the product of a University I think we
>cannot hold the University responsible for the hiring mistakes of
>employers.
>
>>>... I am sure that civil engineers
>have to meet some professional
>certification standards,
>why not MBAs? ...<<
>
>In most states, engineers must pass a 16-hour exam before they can
>be licensed. Every graduate engineer does not become a licensed PE
>(Professional Engineer). There are many jobs that do not require a PE
>and if all graduate engineers could pass the PE then we would not
>need the exam, we could just rely on the degree.
>
>>>... And, why shouldn't B-Schools
>be the body responsible for applying
>those standards to MBAs? ...<<
>
>Professional licensing is to protect the health and welfare of the public.
>How do MBA's impact health and welfare? Yes, they can make
>stupid decisions but there are other licensed professionals that
>protect the health and welfare should the MBA screw up.
>
>>>... And if they are not the ones,
>who should it be? The Market? ..<<
>
>Maybe B-Schools ought to educate and train their students in
>how to hire the right people for the job so they are not
>saddled with under performing employees?
>
>Bob
>
>+----------------------------+
>| Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA |
>+----------------------------+----------------------+
>| GATELY CONSULTING (508) 473-0955 |
>| 115 Dutcher Street Fax (508) 634-0670 |
>| Hopedale, MA 01747-1006 Toll Free (800) 478-8117 |
>|
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/gately/ |
>+---------------------------------------------------+
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:26:14 -0330
>From: Glenn Rowe <
growe@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
>Subject: Re: Musings of a B-School Customer
>
>Dutch
>
>I find it hard to believe that you think that Medical schools are any better
>than MBA programs at ensuring a good quality product. Surely you do not let
>just any doctor operate on you or your family. I know I am very particular.
>I will interview (subtly, of course) and let them treat minor problems
>before they become my family doctor.
>
>Glenn
>
>
>
>
>At 07:33 AM 2/25/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>If I can step in on Bob and Donald's discussion, I cannot understand why a
>>B-school would want to put a product on the market with known defective
>>aspects in regards to quality.
>>
>>While acknowledging the differences, medical schools have a range of
>>doctors, but there is a floor on the competency level of the doctor. If I
>>had a choice, I would prefer that the medical school determing the
>>competency of the doctor before I choose to hire them to work on my
>>anatomy or that of my loved ones. I think business should expect some
>>level of performance in an expensive product that they are about to buy
>>(hire).
>>
>>I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
>>certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
>>the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
>>are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?
>>
>>______________________
>>Great Optimism,
>>
>>Dutch Driver
>>Dept. of Communication
>>McMurry University
>>Abilene, TX
>>
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu
>>
>
>W. Glenn Rowe
>Faculty of Business Administration
>Memorial University of Newfoundland
>St. John's, NF, Canada, A1B 3X5
>709 737 4363
>709 737 7999 (Fax)
>
>ASAC 97 is being held in St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada from May 31 to
>June 3, 1997. St. John's is the oldest city in North America and is only 8
>miles west of Cape Spear, the most easterly point of North America. Come
>join us at ASAC 97 and help us celebrate the 500th anniversary of the
>arrival of John Cabot to Newfoundland in 1497.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:10:59 -0330
>From: Glenn Rowe <
growe@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
>Subject: Re: Musings of a B-School Customer
>
>To George and Dutch
>
>Is it possible that a lot of the problems with MBA grads and Business School
>Grads may be that we have succumbed to market pressures too much. Example,
>we have departmentalized BSchools so much that the only course many Bschool
>grads and MBAs get where they have to think of the organization as a whole
>is Strategic Management. We drive our students to be accountants,
>marketers, HR specialists, production experts, finance experts and then just
>before graduation we subject them to a semester where they try to wrap their
>specialist trained brains around the idea of a whole organization. This has
>been driven by the market place as they want more & more specialists in
>their firms. Then this is exacerbated by the cry to make our courses more
>practical which for most people means make your graduates able to do their
>job in my firm on their first day. Given that firm specific knowledge is
>necessary to achieve better than normal performance what these firms are
>reeally asking for is that we teach our graduates to lead them to normal
>performance not above normal performance. We as business teachers have to
>educate practitioners that a "good theory" is very practical so that with
>good theory and subsequent firm specific knowledge they can lead their firms
>to above normal performance. This is what we have missed in our teaching as
>we have been driven by the market to be more "practical." In one sense we
>have become very impractical because what we teach is only good for solving
>this week's problem but not good for solving problems over several years.
>This makes what we teach very impractical in the long run as we try to make
>it practical in the sense that organizations want.
>
>Glenn
>
>At 08:07 AM 2/25/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>Dutch Driver wrote:
>>
>>>medical schools have a range of doctors, but there is a floor
>>>on the competency level of the doctor.
>>>I am sure that civil engineers have to meet some professional
>>>certification standards, why not MBAs? And, why shouldn't B-Schools be
>>>the body responsible for applying those standards to MBAs? And if they
>>>are not the ones, who should it be? The Market?
>>
>>Nice analogy...hadn't thought of that.
>>
>>(I'm brainstorming and thinking as I write this, so please bear with me.)
>>
>>Then again, medical science and engineering are "hard" topics. There's a
>right way to treat a set a broken bone, and certain rules to
>>building a bridge. In business, there really is no "one best way"...it's a
>"soft art" and not a "hard science." For any particular
>>problem/issue/opportunity there could be three or more solutions. Plus,
>you can't really give a written "test" on the issues of marketing
>>a product, handling past dues, developing a strategic plan for a business,
>etc. You have to do it in the real world.
>>
>>For my MBA we had a "capstone" course called Business Policy that was
>supposed to integrate all of the relevant disciplines. Using Harvard
>>cases we studied problems, developed solutions, etc....and never did find a
>"best" way...some better ways, yes, never a best.
>>
>>Maybe what you're calling for is a take-off on the medical internship. To
>receive the MBA takes a 2 year internship (after the classes are
>>taken) at a business actually running it...low pay, long hours, with a
>tutor or mentor guiding your every step.
>>
>>Interesting thread.
>>
>> George Ferguson
>>
georgeferguson@hmri.com
>>
>
>W. Glenn Rowe
>Faculty of Business Administration
>Memorial University of Newfoundland
>St. John's, NF, Canada, A1B 3X5
>709 737 4363
>709 737 7999 (Fax)
>
>ASAC 97 is being held in St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada from May 31 to
>June 3, 1997. St. John's is the oldest city in North America and is only 8
>miles west of Cape Spear, the most easterly point of North America. Come
>join us at ASAC 97 and help us celebrate the 500th anniversary of the
>arrival of John Cabot to Newfoundland in 1497.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:32:00 -0800
>From: Josh Blatter <
jblatter@JBP.COM>
>Subject: Call for Contributors: the Pfeiffer ANNUALS!
>
>**Call for Contributors to the Pfeiffer ANNUALS!**
>
>While other HRD "annuals" have appeared in the last few years, there
>is truly one original ANNUAL. Pfeiffer has published the ANNUAL for
>more than twenty-five years. All of the volumes of the Pfeiffer
>ANNUAL remain in print. Thousands of trainers, consultants,
>facilitators, and managers rely on the Pfeiffer ANNUAL year after year
>for up-to-date information about making organizations more effective.
>
>Some possible topics for submissions include leadership, management
>development, group and team building, organization development,
>presentation and communication skills, consulting and facilitating,
>etc.
>
>Any work that may be applied to the field of human resource
>development could have a place in the next exciting Pfeiffer ANNUAL!
>
>Contributions may be in one of the following three formats:
>-- experiential learning activities or structured experiences
>-- inventories, questionnaires or surveys
>-- presentation and discussion resources
>
>WHAT IS IN IT FOR YOU if your piece is published?
>1) you will receive either a CASH honorarium or Pfeiffer GIFT
>CERTIFICATE
>2) you will receive fantastic PROFESSIONAL EXPOSURE, as your contact
>information will be printed alongside your submission
>3) you will receive a FREE looseleaf copy of the ANNUAL in which your
>piece is published
>
>Please contact me for submission guidelines, deadlines, etc.:
>
>email to
jblatter@jbp.com
>phone to 1-415-782-3256
>fax to 1-415-433-1711
>mail to
>Josh Blatter
>Pfeiffer, An Imprint of Jossey-Bass
>350 Sansome St. -- Fifth Floor
>San Francisco, CA 94104
>
>My apologies for cross-postings. I look forward to hearing from you
>and eagerly anticipate the opportunity to discuss with you your
>submission ideas.
>
>regards, josh.
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of MG-ED-DV Digest - 24 Feb 1997 to 25 Feb 1997
>***************************************************
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Professor D. Clarke Snail-mail: ~
~ 1809 West Main Street, Box 235 ~
~ Carbondale IL 62901-2169 U.S.A. ~
~ Fax: (618) 529 4888; SIUC Tel: (618) 453 8885 ~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our
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