Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  MG-ED-DV Digest - 25 Feb 1997 to 26 Feb 1997

    Posted 02-27-1997 17:26
    on Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:42:05, "David J. Lemak" wrote,
    Re: MG-ED-DV Digest - 24 Feb 1997 to 25 Feb 1997
    >
    >I stayed on the sidelines as long as I could on this one - had to get my
    >two cents in.
    ---snip ---
    >There are "mail-order B-schools" out there who provide MBA degrees simply
    >because it's profitable to do so. I can't imagine that any of us in major
    >universities would put people out there with "known defects"

    Well, if you agree with Phil Crosby's definition of quality as "conformance
    to requirements" tell me how you ascertain customer requirements. Because
    if you don't have them, you never know whether there are "known defects"
    OBTW, Not "knowing" is not a defense.

    And if the customer is not business, then who is and how so you ascertain
    their requirements?


    Thanks,

    Jack Ring
    Innovation Management
    32712 N. 70th St.
    Scottsdale, AZ 85262-7143 USA
    602-488-4615
    Fax) 602-488-4616


  • 2.  MG-ED-DV Digest - 25 Feb 1997 to 26 Feb 1997

    Posted 02-27-1997 17:26
    On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:40:19, Bob Gately wrote:
    Subject: Re: B-Schools

    Jack Ring <jring@AMUG.ORG> wrote:
    --- snip ---
    >>>... which schools turn out
    >MBManagement or MBLeadership? ...<<
    >
    >MBA schools turn out all three. If we want to identify
    >the best MBAs to hire we need to know what it is we want
    >to hire and then identify which applicants come the
    >closest to what we want.

    Bob,
    I was with you until the last item. I have yet to meet an MBA fresh out of
    school that could do well at managing or leading unless they had that
    ability going in. It seems to me that these capabilities require a lot of
    "laboratory" work, reflection, and a good coach. I was wonder what shools,
    if any, do for managers what Julliard does for musicians, the Bauhaus for
    architects or Mayo does for doctors. By the way, there is no "school" of
    this sort for advanced engineering thinkers (systems engineers) or managers
    thereof so you may want to consider starting one.

    Jack Ring
    Innovation Management
    32712 N. 70th St.
    Scottsdale, AZ 85262-7143 USA
    602-488-4615
    Fax) 602-488-4616


  • 3.  MG-ED-DV Digest - 25 Feb 1997 to 26 Feb 1997

    Posted 02-27-1997 18:37
    Jack, point taken, but see my response to "anon" on our focus groups.
    Regards,
    Dave

    On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Jack Ring wrote:

    > on Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:42:05, "David J. Lemak" wrote,
    > Re: MG-ED-DV Digest - 24 Feb 1997 to 25 Feb 1997
    > >
    > >I stayed on the sidelines as long as I could on this one - had to get my
    > >two cents in.
    > ---snip ---
    > >There are "mail-order B-schools" out there who provide MBA degrees simply
    > >because it's profitable to do so. I can't imagine that any of us in major
    > >universities would put people out there with "known defects"
    >
    > Well, if you agree with Phil Crosby's definition of quality as "conformance
    > to requirements" tell me how you ascertain customer requirements. Because
    > if you don't have them, you never know whether there are "known defects"
    > OBTW, Not "knowing" is not a defense.
    >
    > And if the customer is not business, then who is and how so you ascertain
    > their requirements?
    >
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Jack Ring
    > Innovation Management
    > 32712 N. 70th St.
    > Scottsdale, AZ 85262-7143 USA
    > 602-488-4615
    > Fax) 602-488-4616
    >


  • 4.  MG-ED-DV Digest - 25 Feb 1997 to 26 Feb 1997

    Posted 02-27-1997 20:08
    (Hi Jack)

    I wrote:

    "MBA schools turn out all three. If we want to identify
    the best MBAs to hire we need to know what it is we want
    to hire and then identify which applicants come the
    closest to what we want."

    Jack Ring <jring@AMUG.ORG> wrote:

    >>... I was with you until the last item...<<

    Well, let me try to explain. When managers are asked to describe
    an excellent employee, i.e., has job fit, they usually describe
    behaviors, not knowledge and skills. For instance, they say
    things that are like or not like the following:

    -- She is confident and determined to win.
    -- He strives hard to reach his goals and plays to win.
    -- She is outspoken and knows her own mind and is not afraid to say so.
    -- He is detail-conscious, follows the rules and standard practices
    and procedures and can always be depended upon. He is always well
    prepared because of his careful planning.
    -- She does her work in a meticulous and reliable manner and is
    trustworthy, structured and intent on doing things "the right way."
    -- He is careful and plans well and he meets his deadlines.
    -- She enjoys the stimulation of being with many people and does not
    shrink from taking center stage.
    -- He loves being on the team yet he doesn't try to take over the team.
    -- She enjoys taking risks and accepts challenges willingly.
    -- He is so untroubled and calm that he sets a good example.
    -- She shrugs off criticism and copes well with the adverse situations.
    -- He is so relaxed that he copes well with all stressful situations.

    Knowledge and technical skills are not usually a serious problem since
    most hiring managers screen out applicants who do not meet the
    knowledge and skills requirement. The above list is a brief recount
    of personalty traits only. The secret to knowing which MBA to hire
    is to know the strengths of each trait above that is
    needed for success in the job.

    >>... I have yet to meet an MBA fresh out of
    school that could do well at managing or
    leading unless they had that ability going in ...<<

    I agree, that is why I maintain that MBAs have the same behavioral
    traits after their degree as they had before the degree. Of course,
    some may go through a serious personal growth, but I am afraid that
    cannot be counted upon in all cases.

    >>... It seems to me that these capabilities
    require a lot of "laboratory" work, reflection,
    and a good coach...<<

    Yes, but coaching only goes so far. All managers should coach
    their staff, but that does not mean that all employees can be
    coached to become successful employees in any job. Yes, coaching
    will help them do better, but the goal of an organization should
    be to put the right people into the right jobs to avoid
    the Peter Principle.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Peter Principle; why things always go wrong" by Dr. Laurence J.
    Peter and Raymond Hull, William Morrow & Company, Inc., New York, 1969,
    179 pages in paperback. "The Peter Principle: In a Hierarchy Every
    Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence."

    The author provides an insightful analysis of why so many positions
    in so many organizations seem to be populated by employees who exhibit
    signs of incompetence. A most disturbing concept since we all tend to
    all rise to our own level of incompetence. This concept is likely
    to be ignored by most senior managers and consultants since to
    admit it is to admit that we may also be at our own
    level incompetence. Ignorance is bliss?

    The end result is that non-growing companies are more likely to have
    incompetent employees at many levels of the organizational structure
    whereas growing companies add new positions and employees so fast
    that the inevitable results of the Peter Principle may be
    forestalled as long as growth continues.

    According to Dr. Peter: Work is accomplished by those employees who
    have not reached their level of incompetence. Thus we can see why
    organizations still function even as the Peter Principle causes
    some employees to accept one too many promotions.
    Peter's Corollary: In time, every post tends to be occupied
    by an employee who is incompetent to carry out its duties.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    >>... I was wonder what schools, if any, do for
    managers what Julliard does for musicians, the
    Bauhaus for architects or Mayo does for doctors...<<

    If there were a school that is equivalent to the ones you
    mentioned how many graduates could they produce per year?
    There are 70,000+/- MBA graduates per year in the US so
    the problem would still be with us.

    >>... By the way, there is no "school"
    of this sort for advanced engineering
    thinkers (systems engineers) or managers
    thereof so you may want to consider starting one...<<

    Ugh, I make a better student than an administrator.

    Bob

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