Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  MBA's

    Posted 03-04-1997 15:46
    On Sun, 2 Mar 1997 15:23:36, Bob Gately <gately@COMPUSERVE.COM>, wrote:
    >Subject: MBAs and behavior
    >------------------------------MBAs and behavior, Part 1
    >
    >I wrote:
    >
    >"When managers learn that their top performers are not always
    > their quickest learners they are really surprised. Quite
    > often the most troublesome employees are the quickest learners."
    >
    >Then Jack Ring <jring@AMUG.ORG> wrote:
    >
    >>>... Troublesome? Are they troublesome
    >because the manager wants status quo
    >instead of innovation? ...<<
    >
    >Not necessarily. Sometimes they just get bored to death. Half of
    >the working population will always be in the top half of mental
    >abilities, be definition, and it is a good thing too since many
    >jobs do not require employees who are in the top half.
    >
    >"Most of us do not change our behaviors easily or quickly."
    >
    >>>... We do it, especially when we want to do it....<<
    >
    >I agree. WE can change our OWN behavior IF and when WE want to
    >change but that does not mean managers can change their employees'
    >behaviors whenever the managers want them to change.

    Bob, this is true, but off the mark. We are talking about what B-schools
    should be doing, aren't we?
    >
    >>>... Changing our behavior can be
    >hard if we are bottled up with fear
    >but not when we are pursuing a goal...<<
    >
    >Whose goal? Yours or mine? What if I work for you and your
    >goal is not my goal? What if I just want to earn my paycheck
    >and go home at the end of the day? What if I am a great employee?
    Yours, of course. If there is a mismatch between employer and employee
    goals then both both suffer. Hopefully they will discuss goals, discover
    any mismatches, and negotiate a mutually better situation. And this is
    equally the responsibility of the employee (employment candidate) as the
    manager.
    >
    >>>... I have changed my behavior
    >when "attractors" made it
    >seem worthwhile...<<
    >
    >How about when you are stressed, does an old inappropriate behavior
    >sneak out? (May I presume that you have one old inappropriate behavior?)

    Sure. And it reminds me that I need more attention to managing that aspect
    of myself. Needless to say, I have several opportunities each day!
    >
    >>>... All it takes is practice...<<
    >
    >Practice by whom? I agree with you that you and I need to practice our
    >desired new behaviors to make them second nature, but we are not our
    >own employees. This approach only works when the person wants to change
    >and even then it is harder than saying practice makes perfect. The
    >psychologists I have talked to about changing behaviors tell me that
    >changing our own behaviors is one of the toughest tasks we face,
    >thus changing other peoples' behavior is even tougher.

    Practice by the person who wants to be an excellent MBM/L.
    Universities have football fields where some of their students practice.
    Why don't B-Schools build practice fields?
    >
    >>>... That is why it is so important to
    >practice, practice, practice while in
    >the comfort zone. Then, when stressful
    >situations arise, you are much more
    >likely to opt for the better behavior...<<
    >
    >I agree again, but we are talking about managers who recognize a need
    >to change, who want to change and who will practice the new behaviors.
    >I am afraid we are a small minority. If you and I help others make the
    >same intellectual leap to self-criticism and improvement we will have
    >done them and their employer a great service.

    I am not interested in saving the world. A small minority (7,000 per year)
    of good men and women MBM/L's is all we need.
    >
    >>>... I agree that employers should
    >be doing it. But what about universities?
    >What responsibility do they have for the
    >tuition they charge?...<<
    >
    >The best we can hope for is that a university exposes each student to
    >the information necessary for the student to come to the realization
    >that perhaps their behavior is inappropriate and should be changed.

    I think that is way too underdemanding of B-schools. What if the same
    university treated their athletes program that way? What if they never had
    debate teams but just talked about debating? What if their music school
    was limited to reading "case studies" about Mozart's compositions?

    >
    >>>... There you have it. I believe that
    >it is certainly the employee -- to the
    >point that if (s)he is not getting the
    >learning opportunities from their manager,
    >they should exit that job, post haste...<<
    >
    >If that were the case we would have turmoil in the economy with turnover
    >rates exceeding 80% per year, since 80% or more of employees report
    >that they are dissatisfied in the jobs.

    Well, you would find out that 80% of the dissatisfied did not have the
    gumption to take action so there would be about 10% to 15% net turnover.
    That is not much higher than what we are experiencing today if you include
    downsizing. And once, again, I am not trying to save the world. I am just
    trying to accelerate those who are qualified to become MBM/L's.
    >
    >There are a few things we need to keep in mind about employees:
    > 1 - they are all different
    > 2 - many are afraid of change
    All I need is 2%
    > 3 - many are afraid to lose their jobs
    Not the ones who fit your criteria for management and leadership.
    > 4 - many will suffer under abusive managers because of 2 and 3 above
    That is their choice. A dumb one, but theirs.
    > 5 - most work for incompetent supervisors and/or managers
    Not for long. Half the establishments that now exist will not be here in
    ten years and that half will be the ones with incompetent supervisors and
    managers.
    > 6 - they know their next manager my be even worse
    Then they are pessimists -- in which case they may not fit your criteria,
    anyway.
    >
    >----- continued from MBAs and behavior, Part 1 ---------
    >
    >>>... The capability is not MBA (as we know
    >it) but is MBManager/Leader. Each MBM/L has
    >five "apprentices" and each of them have five
    >work group supervisors...<<
    >
    >I hate to ask, but where are we going to find all these Manager/Leaders?
    >I heard that one well-known consultant has stopped working directly with
    >his company's clients because he says that only about 2% to 3% of the
    >companies have Manager/Leaders capable of implementing the changes that
    >need to be made. I would have thought more like 15%, but I yield to him
    >and his many years of experience.

    His numbers seem right to me. I would hope to get all those
    Managers/Leaders from universities. That is why I think they should stop
    MBA'ing and start MBM/L'ing.
    >
    >With 70,000+ MBA graduates a year, the untold number of consultants and
    >an endless supply of books of the subject, I wonder why there are still
    >so few effective managers and leaders? My answer is that effective
    >management and leadership is closely related to having the appropriate
    >personality along with the necessary mental ability and, of course, the
    >interest to use both in a managerial position and/or leadership position.
    >That is why it is a stubborn problem--there are not enough people with
    >these traits to fill the demand,

    If you consider the statistics on MeyersBriggs, and other "readiness for
    leadership" measures, about 5% to 8% seem to fit your criteria. I think
    there is enough "raw material," especially if we allow females to
    participate equally.

    >and worse, many ineffective managers
    >reject or will not promote subordinates who exhibit the leadership
    >skills that the managers do not possess.

    agreed. So let's acknowledge that it will take the better part of a
    "generation" to retire that problem. But let's get at it.
    >
    >>>... That means an average of 17 worker
    >bees per work group. Not bad...<<
    >
    >I think you underestimate the need for the knowledge that B-School graduates
    >possess.

    I think not. For example, how many MBA's do you want at each McDonalds
    franchise?

    >The problem is not the B-school graduates but rather
    >the people who hire the B-School graduates.

    And where did they come from? Ergo, the problem must be with B-school
    grads. In fact, it is with the inadequate learning environment through
    which they were extruded.

    >Employers expect B-School
    >graduates to solve the employers' problems when in fact the employers'
    >problems are caused by the employers' managers.

    So they should be prepared, in b-school, to solve that problem.

    >>>... Also, there are over 10 million businesses...<<
    >
    >I used that before as a round number but was told that may be high.
    >Ten million works better for my argument.
    >
    >>>... but I think less than half of them
    >need MBM/L talent on their staff...<<
    >
    >I think that is precisely the reason why so many businesses are
    >in trouble, they don't have MBM/L talent on staff.

    Agreed. So let's get on with creating them, however we can. But it does
    not take that many, especially to get the bandwagon rolling.
    >
    >Every employer needs at least one effective leader and many more
    >effective managers, but, if the consultant I mentioned above is correct,
    >there are only 2,400,000 to 3,600,000 (2% to 3% of the work force)
    >leaders available. I guess one good leader could be shared by 3 to 4 companies.

    Or your premise is wrong. How many effective leaders (MBM/L level) does a
    McDonalds franchise need?
    >
    >>>... Common sense will serve them adequately...<<
    >
    >Not quite. Common sense is applying your knowledge and experience to
    >the task at hand. If a manager is short on experience or lacks
    >knowledge his common sense may well be disastrous. Too many people
    >in business think common sense is a substitute for knowledge--it isn't.

    Agreed. But it is a substitute for sanity. And sanity is what most
    business lack (especially your favorite -- inept managers). If you accept
    the definition of insanity as: "continuing a behavior that produces
    results that are unsatisfactory to you" then the antidote is common sense.
    Not knowledge, but the wisdom to use the knowledge.
    >
    >>>... We don't need "teach" we need "lead"
    >It seems to me that you are one of
    >these -- or at least a carrier...<<
    >
    >Thank you very much. I little personal history follows.
    >
    >[ My former boss told me I could motivate the entire company
    >single handed, but when I asked him to harness my leadership
    >abilities for the good of the company he had not the slightest
    >idea how to do it. The problem was that the company would not
    >allow anyone but another member of the board of directors to
    >be in a leadership position.
    >
    >In 1990 the company, 230 employees, was losing $50,000 per month and
    >about to go under--the bank was close to calling in our line of
    >credit--the comptroller came to me in tears and begged me to do something
    >even though I was not director. I was at the level from which directors
    >were selected. Needless to say tried and earned an Executive MBA along the
    >way while trying to help the company change for the good.
    >
    >Like many companies it hired a consultant to help them stop the red ink. The
    >company laid off people by the month, then every other week then weekly then
    >twice weekly until they stopped spending more than they were taking in. Of
    >course, they drove an already low morale into the sewer so to speak. Yes, the
    >company survived it has not changed much. Changes I had lobbied for in the
    >mid-1980's were implemented in the mid-1990's. Progress is so slow that
    >employees who have and recognize their own leadership abilities leave for
    >more rewarding positions. Looking back I realize that the company probably lost
    >their best employees before the employees reached their 30th birthday. ]

    So now you are a consultant and probably enjoying it more than being a
    worker bee. My question is, don't you have a lot of ideas about a) what
    people should learn on their way to becoming an MBM/L and b) what learning
    environment would be effective (regardless of the cartesian University
    model)?
    -------------------- ooof ------------------
    Bob, this has been an informative interchange for me. Thanks for that.
    But I think we have pretty well clarified our beliefs and positions and I
    have put way more hours into this topic than I have available. So thank
    you. I will be interested in your views but will not likely respond any
    further (unless you really trip my trigger) <;)+ Good consulting.


    Jack Ring
    602-488-4615, fax) 4616


  • 2.  MBA's

    Posted 03-04-1997 20:26
    Jack Ring <jring@AMUG.ORG> wrote:

    (Jack, just adding a few finishing
    comments, thanks for the exchange.
    Bob)

    >>... We are talking about what B-schools
    should be doing, aren't we? ...<<

    Yes. I am suggesting B-Schools cannot prepare every student to be
    successful in every job.

    >>... Why don't B-Schools
    build practice fields? ...<<

    A college football game is a real football game,
    a classroom exercise is not the business world.

    >>... I am not interested in saving the world.
    A small minority (7,000 per year) of good men
    and women MBM/L's is all we need...<<

    I agree if we don't mind working them to death trying to
    help 5,000,000 business.

    >>... I think that is way too
    under demanding of B-schools...<<

    I just don't think B-School professors are that well-equipped to make
    their students change. Heck, if B-School professors could whip their
    students into shape as easy as that why have so many reengineering
    efforts failed to achieve their desired goals?

    >>... What if the same university
    treated their athletes program that way? ...<<

    They do. They don't let everyone play on the team--only the
    top 100 out of the entire student body. Do most B-Schools have
    the luxury of selecting the best 100 students from an applicant
    pool of 1,000, 10,000 or even 40,000.

    >>... What if they never had debate
    teams but just talked about debating?...<<

    Debating skills are a good to have, but no one at a college debate
    fires a debater, or cancel his bonus, or withholds future financial
    rewards. College is college and should not be confused with the
    reality of the job.

    >>... What if their music school
    was limited to reading "case studies"
    about Mozart's compositions? ...<<

    How many music schools graduate Mozarts?

    >>... Well, you would find out that 80% of
    the dissatisfied did not have the gumption
    to take action so there would be about
    10% to 15% net turnover...<<

    Yes, my point exactly. If we know our employees are likely to suffer
    under abusive managers and we as managers do nothing to alleviate the
    abuse who is guilty? Certainly not the employee.

    >>... I am just trying to accelerate those
    who are qualified to become MBM/L's...<<

    Then we need to be more selective in who you let into our
    MBA programs. Maybe applicants need to demonstrate that they
    are already leaders in their place of work before they are
    allowed to enroll, otherwise, we will allow too many
    non-leaders in.

    >>... All I need is 2% ...<<

    According to John Kotter in his HBR article Why Change Efforts Fail the
    need is much higher than 2%.

    5 - most work for incompetent supervisors and/or managers

    >>... Not for long. Half the establishments
    that now exist will not be here in ten years
    and that half will be the ones with incompetent
    supervisors and managers...<<

    Yes, but these incompetent managers do not die off they move into
    other businesses and inflict their damage. How do you think they
    got hired in the first place?

    >>... I would hope to get all those
    Managers/Leaders from universities...<<

    My best guess is that most leaders never set foot in a graduate school.

    >>... That is why I think they should
    stop MBA'ing and start MBM/L'ing...<<

    Who will apply to the MBM/L if the MBA is not available?

    >>... If you consider the statistics
    on MeyersBriggs, and other "readiness for
    leadership" measures, about 5% to 8% seem
    to fit your criteria...<<

    I used to think 15% but am leaning towards 5%.

    >>... I think there is enough
    "raw material," especially if
    we allow females to participate equally...<<

    Hmmm, I wasn't only thinking of men.

    >>... So let's acknowledge that it
    will take the better part of a
    "generation" to retire that
    problem. But let's get at it...<<

    I agree it is better to try than not try, but lets no mislead
    employers into thinking that graduate degrees confer leadership
    abilities.

    >>>.. I think not. For example, how many MBA's do you want at each
    McDonalds franchise? ...<<

    Four. One to toast the bun, 1 to grill the hamburg and 2 to make change.

    >>... And where did they come from? ...<<

    Most managers are not B-School graduates.

    >>... Ergo, the problem must be with B-school grads...<<

    We already covered the numbers. We have about 280,000
    MBAs but millions of managers.

    >>... In fact, it is with the inadequate learning
    environment through which they were extruded...<<

    I think when we educate ineffective managers we often end up
    with educated ineffective managers.

    >>... So they should be prepared,
    in b-school, to solve that problem...<<

    I don't think an MBA is going to walk into his new employer and make
    the employer admit to something the employer does not want to hear. If
    some of the worlds best consultants cannot do that I don't think
    many MBA will either.

    >>... Agreed. So let's get on with
    creating them, however we can. But
    it does not take that many, especially
    to get the bandwagon rolling...<<

    I am not too sure we can create them, but we sure can help the
    people who have leadership abilities to blossom.

    >>... How many effective leaders
    (MBM/L level) does a McDonalds franchise need?...<<

    I suppose none if we don't care about the work environment of
    the employees. One or more if we do care.

    >>... So now you are a consultant and probably
    enjoying it more than being a worker bee...<<

    Yes, greatly.

    a) what people should learn on their way to becoming an MBM/L and

    First, learn what motivates yourself. Understand your own behavior,
    control the counterproductive behaviors.

    Second, learn what motivates others.

    Third, develop a sense of caring about others' well-being. If this
    is not present or not developed, leadership is impossible.

    Fourth, act like a leader 24 hours a day, not just when we want
    people to follow us.



    b) what learning environment would be effective..?

    I'll have to mull this over.


    It has been invigorating, thanks.

    Bob

    +----------------------------+
    | Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA |
    +----------------------------+-----------------------+
    | GATELY CONSULTING (508) 473-0955 |
    | 115 Dutcher Street Fax (508) 634-0670 |
    | Hopedale, MA 01747-1006 Toll Free (800) 478-8117 |
    +----------------------------------------------------+