Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  forum

    Posted 10-07-1997 14:05
    How about if we change the name of this forum to, "Consultants who introduce themselves?"


  • 2.  forum

    Posted 10-08-1997 01:59
    Congratulations to Paul Hsi for hitting this nail squarely on its head!
    (Now if we could only do the same with the consultants!)
    Fred Anderson
    Indiana Univ. of PA
    Indiana, PA 15705


  • 3.  forum

    Posted 10-08-1997 07:51
    This discussion list is aimed at teaching/training both in
    higher educational contexts (management education) and in
    corporate contexts (management development). As such individuals
    involved in both types of contexts are welcomed and even actively
    solicited. Although sales promotion is inappropriate and (and given
    who our membership is--all educators and trainers) probably futile,
    I see nothing wrong with a new member of any sort introducing
    themselves. I recall some professors and doctoral students
    recently introduced themselves too though without getting hammered.
    Many other lists request all new members to introduce themselves
    (TRDEV-L for example). This is why many new members assume
    this list expects it too. In any case, as netmaster, I am not upset
    by one time introductions by or of anyone who is involved in the
    domain area of the Academy of Management Management Education
    and Development division. 'nuff said.
    Cybercollegially,
    Charlie Wankel

    FRED P. ANDERSON; DEPT. OF MGMT.& MKTG. wrote:

    > Congratulations to Paul Hsi for hitting this nail squarely on its head!
    > (Now if we could only do the same with the consultants!)
    > Fred Anderson
    > Indiana Univ. of PA
    > Indiana, PA 15705


  • 4.  forum

    Posted 10-10-1997 16:51
    In a message dated 10/7/97 2:23:12 PM, someone (no name attached) wrote:

    <<How about if we change the name of this forum to, "Consultants who
    introduce themselves?"
    >>

    If you'd like us to leave, please say so. I joined because I thought I could
    learn something from this group to pass on to my clients. I also believed I
    had something to offer from my 20 years out in the trenches where management
    is being practiced.

    Guidance, please!

    Rick Stamm
    The TEAM Approach(R)
    Changing the Way America Works... Together(TM)
    TeamDoc@aol.com
    717/656-0788


  • 5.  forum

    Posted 10-10-1997 17:54
    Rick,
    I've already addressed this. Consultants, corporate types,
    people working in government and international organizations,
    professors, doctoral students, administrators of hospitals, all
    are welcome to Mg-Ed-Dv. (This from someone accused of
    causing "netclutter" by welcoming people too much!)
    Welcoming Rick and everyone,
    Charlie Wankel
    netmaster mg-ed-dv

    Rick Stamm wrote:

    > In a message dated 10/7/97 2:23:12 PM, someone (no name attached) wrote:
    >
    > <<How about if we change the name of this forum to, "Consultants who
    > introduce themselves?"
    > >>
    >
    > If you'd like us to leave, please say so. I joined because I thought I could
    > learn something from this group to pass on to my clients. I also believed I
    > had something to offer from my 20 years out in the trenches where management
    > is being practiced.
    >
    > Guidance, please!
    >
    > Rick Stamm
    > The TEAM Approach(R)
    > Changing the Way America Works... Together(TM)
    > TeamDoc@aol.com
    > 717/656-0788


  • 6.  forum

    Posted 10-10-1997 18:39
    Rick and others
    The unnamed person Rick is replying to is making a point (if you think
    the point is made inappropriately, so be it) about this forum that has
    concerned me. I (and I'm sure others, too) joined because this list was
    touted at the time as a way to learn about and get involved in
    innovative management education, especially in a university setting. I
    know listservs, like all organizations (side note/question: are
    listservs organizations?) must change. Lately this forum has become more
    of an exchange on consulting techniques and tools. I know that to a
    certain extent that can be called management education and development,
    but not far enough to be central to what some of us thought we were
    getting in a listserv. Thats fine, there are other listservs that serve
    this capacity, but I am very close to unsubscribing from this one and I
    thought I'd see if its just my imagination or has this listserv really
    changed in the way I stated. There is some good stuff here, but is there
    going to be enough good stuff here for those of us who are not
    consultants? I liked Rick's point - he joined so he can get info to
    pass to his clients. *I* joined to be a better management educator, and
    no, students are not clients in the same sense organizations are. Whats
    it going to be? Can this list serve us both?

    Rick Stamm wrote:
    >
    > In a message dated 10/7/97 2:23:12 PM, someone (no name attached) wrote:
    >
    > <<How about if we change the name of this forum to, "Consultants who
    > introduce themselves?"
    > >>
    >
    > If you'd like us to leave, please say so. I joined because I thought I could
    > learn something from this group to pass on to my clients. I also believed I
    > had something to offer from my 20 years out in the trenches where management
    > is being practiced.
    >
    > Guidance, please!
    >
    > Rick Stamm
    > The TEAM Approach(R)
    > Changing the Way America Works... Together(TM)
    > TeamDoc@aol.com
    > 717/656-0788

    --

    Gary Stark
    Ph.D. Candidate
    Department of Management
    University of Nebraska
    CBA 209
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0491
    402/472-6215
    gstark@unlgrad1.unl.edu
    (note: letter "l" follows un, number "1" follows grad)


  • 7.  forum

    Posted 10-10-1997 19:36
    Gary,
    As a member of the Executive Committee of the Academy of Management's
    Management Education and Development Division for a number of years--currently
    I am the division's Program Chair for the Academy's August 1998 meeting in San
    Diego--I believe I can speak to your comments informed by some years of
    discussion of the issues you raise. The domain of our division and of this discussion
    list is both management education and management development. These two
    designations are meant to include both university/college and business (and other
    types of institutional settings). Many of the professionals on our list have doctorates
    equivalent to the one on which you are working. Others are intelligent individuals
    with useful insights and experience. As the founder and manager of this
    discussion group I want to say emphatically and definitely THIS LIST WELCOMES
    MANAGEMENT DEVELOPMENT PROFESSIONALS from corporate, hospital,
    government, and consulting contexts. I hope that the professors and doctoral
    students among us--several hundred strong from all over the world--will continue
    to engage in useful and interesting discussions of management education, of
    course. I will remove individuals from our group who insult, belittle, or demean
    others. Certainly the norm of the Academy of Management is collegiality. The
    norm of academe generally does not allow ad hominen attacks. I think less of
    the University of Nebraska if your views reflect those of your colleagues. Now if
    someone is hawking a product only--point it out to me and I will stop them
    from doing so--but that's another issue. But, let me say that professors have hawked
    various products here too!
    Collegially,
    Charlie Wankel
    netmaster mg-ed-dv


    > Rick and others
    > The unnamed person Rick is replying to is making a point (if you think
    > the point is made inappropriately, so be it) about this forum that has
    > concerned me. I (and I'm sure others, too) joined because this list was
    > touted at the time as a way to learn about and get involved in
    > innovative management education, especially in a university setting. I
    > know listservs, like all organizations (side note/question: are
    > listservs organizations?) must change. Lately this forum has become more
    > of an exchange on consulting techniques and tools. I know that to a
    > certain extent that can be called management education and development,
    > but not far enough to be central to what some of us thought we were
    > getting in a listserv. Thats fine, there are other listservs that serve
    > this capacity, but I am very close to unsubscribing from this one and I
    > thought I'd see if its just my imagination or has this listserv really
    > changed in the way I stated. There is some good stuff here, but is there
    > going to be enough good stuff here for those of us who are not
    > consultants? I liked Rick's point - he joined so he can get info to
    > pass to his clients. *I* joined to be a better management educator, and
    > no, students are not clients in the same sense organizations are. Whats
    > it going to be? Can this list serve us both?
    >
    > Rick Stamm wrote:
    > >
    > > In a message dated 10/7/97 2:23:12 PM, someone (no name attached) wrote:
    > >
    > > <<How about if we change the name of this forum to, "Consultants who
    > > introduce themselves?"
    > > >>
    > >
    > > If you'd like us to leave, please say so. I joined because I thought I could
    > > learn something from this group to pass on to my clients. I also believed I
    > > had something to offer from my 20 years out in the trenches where management
    > > is being practiced.
    > >
    > > Guidance, please!
    > >
    > > Rick Stamm
    > > The TEAM Approach(R)
    > > Changing the Way America Works... Together(TM)
    > > TeamDoc@aol.com
    > > 717/656-0788
    >
    > --
    >
    > Gary Stark
    > Ph.D. Candidate
    > Department of Management
    > University of Nebraska
    > CBA 209
    > Lincoln, NE 68588-0491
    > 402/472-6215
    > gstark@unlgrad1.unl.edu
    > (note: letter "l" follows un, number "1" follows grad)


  • 8.  forum

    Posted 10-10-1997 20:45
    Charlie (and others)
    I am not certain what part of my message you took offense to, but I
    will apologize if the tone was inappropriate. I was in no way putting
    down consultants, just wondering if everybody on the list had the same
    thing in mind regarding the purposes of the list. My point is, and I
    think many of us may recognize this, that the forum has changed, with
    the recent emphasis more heavily on consulting. As I said, this is fine.
    Consulting is great. It is just not for all of us. And at times this
    listserv leaves us non-consultants out of the loop. Charlie, thank you
    for clarifying the purpose of the list - I hope it continues to work!
    It really does help me to understand what we are doing with this list,
    and it is different from my original understanding of the purposes of
    this list. I am truly sorry if my original comments were
    misinterpreted. They were not intended to offend, simply to clarify.
    Peace. (btw, I am *not* the unnamed person Rick was replying to who
    suggested changing the name of the forum).

    --Gary

    Charlie Wankel wrote:
    >
    > The domain of our division and of this discussion list is both management education and management development. These two
    > designations are meant to include both university/college and business (and other
    > types of institutional settings). As the founder and manager of this
    > discussion group I want to say emphatically and definitely THIS LIST WELCOMES
    > MANAGEMENT DEVELOPMENT PROFESSIONALS from corporate, hospital,
    > government, and consulting contexts. I hope that the professors and doctoral
    > students among us--several hundred strong from all over the world--will continue
    > to engage in useful and interesting discussions of management education, of
    > course. I will remove individuals from our group who insult, belittle, or demean
    > others. Certainly the norm of the Academy of Management is collegiality. The
    > norm of academe generally does not allow ad hominen attacks. I think less of
    > the University of Nebraska if your views reflect those of your colleagues. Now if
    > someone is hawking a product only--point it out to me and I will stop them
    > from doing so--but that's another issue. But, let me say that professors have hawked
    > various products here too!
    > Collegially,
    > Charlie Wankel
    > netmaster mg-ed-dv

    > >
    > > Rick Stamm wrote:
    > > >
    > > > In a message dated 10/7/97 2:23:12 PM, someone (no name attached) wrote:
    > > >
    > > > <<How about if we change the name of this forum to, "Consultants who
    > > > introduce themselves?"

    --

    Gary Stark
    Ph.D. Candidate
    Department of Management
    University of Nebraska
    CBA 209
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0491
    402/472-6215
    gstark@unlgrad1.unl.edu
    (note: letter "l" follows un, number "1" follows grad)


  • 9.  forum

    Posted 10-10-1997 23:28
    -- [ From: Lynda Rogerson * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] --

    This (what people expect to FIND on this forum) is an interesting
    dilemma.....and one that I think deserves a little exploring. As I
    understand (and of course i could be wrong....) a great number of people
    have a set of assumptions and expectations about the purpose of the list
    ..

    1) ".. a way to learn about and get involved in
    > innovative management education, especially in a university setting."
    I
    To my way of thinking there is absolutely no reason why this can't
    happen. Many of us work in a university setting and are working on
    innovative ways for creating a 'learning environment" rather than just a
    "teaching" effort. But I do believe that it takes those who are
    interested in this topic to INITIATE the discussion; complaining about
    what is available without contributing to the design of the environment
    shows a lack of empowerment (I don't know too many professors who
    perceive themselves as being unempowered!!) Taking charge of our
    education is the first step toward learning.

    2) "Lately this forum has become more of an exchange on consulting
    techniques and tools. I know that to a certain extent that can be
    called management education and development, but not far enough to be
    central to what some of us thought we were getting in a listserv."

    Again, if you want to have other topics than consulting techniques and
    tools, Introduce them!! There is no reason why we can't have two, three
    , four threads going on at once. Discussions in a list serve
    environment are not meant to be linear. With over 700 people on board,
    not every topic will be timely to every person. If a topic is MISSING,
    INTRODUCE IT!!

    3. There is some good stuff here, but is there going to be enough good
    stuff here for those of us who are not consultants?
    What is "good stuff"??? Are you looking for some authors to read? Are
    you looking for a new way to teach management and leadership in human
    resource development? Are you looking for a strategy for developing
    your dissertation statistics?

    As a professor at a university AND a consultant, I cannot see how
    exchanging information between the academic world and the business world
    can be anything else BUT enlightening!! How else are we going to know
    in what context to frame our theories, to help our middle adult students
    and young adult (those who might also be working in those business
    environments) engage their learning molecules in a meaningful way???
    Again, if something is missing, POSE THE QUESTION!!

    4. he joined so he can get info to pass to his clients. *I* joined to
    be a better management educator, and no, students are not clients in the
    same sense organizations are. Whats it going to be? Can this list serve
    us both?

    I don't see why not....there is ample air space!! There is ample time.
    We all have a delete button and we all claim to be interested in
    learning...cyberspace is non-linear--you can carry on many conversations
    at the same time and in different places!!!

    In what way are students not clients in the same sense that
    organizations are? The students at my university are considered
    "customers." The students at my university demand that they be taught
    those theories, practices, and techniques that will enable them to
    achieve in their careers. The students at my university pay my salary.
    Each of my students comes to my class as each of the participants in my
    organizational interventions comes to class: with preconceived notions
    about a topic, with some good information, some rather "interesting"
    perceptions about the topic, with significant gaps in their education;
    with a goal of "getting through" the course in the most efficient way
    possible, and so on.

    My job as a professor or as a consultant is to examine where my
    "client/student" stands in relation to a need or a learning challenge
    and then to assist him/her in finding ways to learn it in the most
    efficient manner possible.

    My students often bring me significant issues from the "front" that add
    to the learning in our class. Last term, for instance in a strategic
    planning course in the health administration dept , we had people from
    Tricare, the CEO of a Home Health Care delivery service, the director of
    a nursing home, and so on. All fo these people were working on their
    Master's degree in Health Care Administration. Do they not deserve the
    best that we academics can offer?? Do they not deserve to be treated
    with the same respect and deference that our clients are treated with??

    And perhaps, there is significant crosstraining that is the bottom line
    of both management education and management development.


    Also, I apologize to whomever I borrowed the statements from. In
    catching this thread midway today, I am not sure if it was Gary or
    someone else. But, they were good points and helped me to make mine as
    well. So thank you for your willingness to share.

    Lynda Rogerson, Ed.D.
    hxbg65a@prodigy.com
    www.lynco.com


  • 10.  forum

    Posted 10-11-1997 00:53
    Gary Stark wrote:
    >
    > Rick and others
    > The unnamed person Rick is replying to is making a point (if you think
    > the point is made inappropriately, so be it) about this forum that has
    > concerned me. I (and I'm sure others, too) joined because this list was
    > touted at the time as a way to learn about and get involved in
    > innovative management education, especially in a university setting. I
    > know listservs, like all organizations (side note/question: are
    > listservs organizations?) must change. Lately this forum has become more
    > of an exchange on consulting techniques and tools. I know that to a
    > certain extent that can be called management education and development,
    > but not far enough to be central to what some of us thought we were
    > getting in a listserv. Thats fine, there are other listservs that serve
    > this capacity, but I am very close to unsubscribing from this one and I
    > thought I'd see if its just my imagination or has this listserv really
    > changed in the way I stated. There is some good stuff here, but is there
    > going to be enough good stuff here for those of us who are not
    > consultants? I liked Rick's point - he joined so he can get info to
    > pass to his clients. *I* joined to be a better management educator, and
    > no, students are not clients in the same sense organizations are. Whats
    > it going to be? Can this list serve us both?
    >
    > Rick Stamm wrote:
    > >
    > > In a message dated 10/7/97 2:23:12 PM, someone (no name attached) wrote:
    > >
    > > <<How about if we change the name of this forum to, "Consultants who
    > > introduce themselves?"
    > > >>
    > >
    > > If you'd like us to leave, please say so. I joined because I thought I could
    > > learn something from this group to pass on to my clients. I also believed I
    > > had something to offer from my 20 years out in the trenches where management
    > > is being practiced.
    > >
    > > Guidance, please!
    > >
    > > Rick Stamm
    > > The TEAM Approach(R)
    > > Changing the Way America Works... Together(TM)
    > > TeamDoc@aol.com
    > > 717/656-0788
    >
    > --
    >
    > Gary Stark
    > Ph.D. Candidate
    > Department of Management
    > University of Nebraska
    > CBA 209
    > Lincoln, NE 68588-0491
    > 402/472-6215
    > gstark@unlgrad1.unl.edu
    > (note: letter "l" follows un, number "1" follows grad)




    A quick interjection

    Hmmmmmm. Students aren't clients? Did I really read that or what is a
    Freudian slip? Perhaps big organisations aren't clients in the same way
    small organisations are clients, or big people aren't clients in the
    same way small people are. Who draws the line?

    I am both a consultant and a university lecturer and in case anyone's
    interested I am getting more than my effort's worth out of this link. If
    I can sell either of my services (to students or to "real clients") than
    that is a bonus but that isn't what I'm here for. And even if I was,
    isn't the gaining of education - especially if it comes from the
    trenches where it is happening - something that only those with an
    extreme narrow focus can fail to gain from?

    If we try and limit participation on this link to only universities than
    I believe we are doing the world an immense disservice. Just go back
    over some of the discussions that have been held over the last few weeks
    and look at the diversity (in every sense of the word) of thoughts and
    ideas that have come through. Surely you can't be intimating that these
    have been a waste of time and effort?

    It is clear in this day and age that if universities aren't able to
    provide knowledge that is current, is relevant, and is meaningful to the
    world in which it is to be used then they are wasting their time and
    effort. This means, however, that one must ask where are they gaining
    their knowledge from in the first place if it isn't from those who are
    active in the workplace? Osmosis? Guesswork? Making it up as they go
    along? Theory? Chicken's gizzards? Tarot cards? Surely not.

    We all have something to learn from each other, and if it means putting
    one's academic ego on the back burner for a while then the only winner
    is the person who counts - the student/client.

    Phil Rutherford
    Adjunct lecturer University of New England