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  • 1.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-10-1997 01:32
    I do not to cite who said the following because I do not want my comments
    to be taken as a personal attack. Rather, I want to address the essence of
    the statement.

    >One point though: We have found that the greatest difficulty trainers
    >have had is in measuring the effectiveness of their own work.

    Is the problem that "trainers" cannot measure or that "trainers" do not
    know what to measure?
    If the latter, a trainer has no excuse for taking the time of humans and
    subjecting them to unvalidated experiences.
    If the former, they need training in the collection of measures and the
    production of metrics.

    Either way, any trainer who cannot measure the effectiveness of their work
    should find something useful, and non-damaging, to do.

    Jack Ring
    Innovation Management
    32712 N. 70th St.
    Scottsdale, AZ 85262-7143
    602-488-4615


  • 2.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-10-1997 01:48
    Jack Ring wrote:
    >
    > I do not to cite who said the following because I do not want my comments
    > to be taken as a personal attack. Rather, I want to address the essence of
    > the statement.
    >
    > >One point though: We have found that the greatest difficulty trainers
    > >have had is in measuring the effectiveness of their own work.
    >
    > Is the problem that "trainers" cannot measure or that "trainers" do not
    > know what to measure?
    > If the latter, a trainer has no excuse for taking the time of humans and
    > subjecting them to unvalidated experiences.
    > If the former, they need training in the collection of measures and the
    > production of metrics.
    >
    > Either way, any trainer who cannot measure the effectiveness of their work
    > should find something useful, and non-damaging, to do.
    >
    > Jack Ring
    > Innovation Management
    > 32712 N. 70th St.
    > Scottsdale, AZ 85262-7143
    > 602-488-4615

    Jack,
    I couldn't agree more (and no, I wouldn't have taken it as a personal
    attack anyway).

    Phil


  • 3.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-10-1997 11:21
    *The* expert in training

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  • 4.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-11-1997 14:33
    >Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:31:59 -0700
    >From: Jack Ring <jring@AMUG.ORG>
    >Subject: Re: Training Effectiveness
    >
    >I do not to cite who said the following because I do not want my comments
    >to be taken as a personal attack. Rather, I want to address the essence of
    >the statement.
    >
    I think you create more of an atmosphere of "attack" when you say the
    above, Jack. The point is to have a dialogue, and that is personal. Being
    aware of the content of what we say is what is most helpful, not trying to
    artificially be "unaware" of who we are talking to/about.

    >Either way, any trainer who cannot measure the effectiveness of their work
    >should find something useful, and non-damaging, to do.

    I think I would agree with the spirit of your message, but I take issue
    with the specifics. There are plenty of areas that we can help people with
    (I don't know that "training" is always the best word) which are not
    measurable, for example how much empathy they try to have for someone else.

    Don Austin, Ph.D.
    _____________________________________
    Department of Organizational Behavior
    Case Western Reserve University
    Cleveland, OH 44106 (216) 932-8421
    _____________________________________

    Researching processes with which small
    groups create valued organization.

    Creating Appreciative Dialogue.


  • 5.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-11-1997 15:37
    Donald P. Austin <dpa2@PO.CWRU.EDU> wrote:

    (Hello Don)

    >>... There are plenty of areas that we can help people with...which are
    not measurable, for example how much empathy they try to have for someone
    else...<<

    Can't we solicit feedback from the person's colleagues, subordinates and
    supervisors to determine if the person's behavior has improved? If it
    hasn't improved, does it matter how much empathy he has? Aren't we more
    concerned with behavior than feelings?

    Bob


  • 6.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-12-1997 19:41
    Bob Gately wrote:
    >
    > Donald P. Austin <dpa2@PO.CWRU.EDU> wrote:
    >
    > (Hello Don)
    >
    > >>... There are plenty of areas that we can help people with...which are
    > not measurable, for example how much empathy they try to have for someone
    > else...<<
    >
    > Can't we solicit feedback from the person's colleagues, subordinates and
    > supervisors to determine if the person's behavior has improved? If it
    > hasn't improved, does it matter how much empathy he has? Aren't we more
    > concerned with behavior than feelings?

    Bob,

    before I comment on that let me apologize, if the style (NOT the
    contents) of my first eMail offended you. Maybe I got carried away a
    little bit too much.

    Unfortunately I have to object to your above statement. To my mind we
    can't be concerned with behaviour and neglect feelings at the same time.
    Behavior follows feelings.

    Now we could say, that we are not interested in how a person feels, as
    long s/he "functions" in the way that is required. May be we could
    devise a measure/training that would produce the desired behavior
    despite the feelings that caused the original "wrong" behavior. But we
    can be certain, that after a while that person's behavior will
    "deteriorate" again to the original behaviour; because the feelings are
    still the same.

    We mustn't be afraid to work with feelings. They are important
    indicators, especially in an organization. If those feelings produce a
    behaviour that is identified as being "problematic" then we as
    consultants have something to work with (if we are not afraid of working
    with feelings), as that behaviour will almost certainly also point at a
    problem of the organization. And almost always will we find that the
    organization benefits, if the behaviour of one person is seen and
    discussed in the context of the groupt/team s/he is in and is not only
    taken as the sole problem of that particular person.

    Schindler called those persons "Omegas" and he claimed that any given
    group will produce such an "Omega", a scapegoat, who doesn't have the
    "right" attitude, tends to object a lot, sees only the negative, is even
    suspected to see things as the "enemy" does (which could be another
    team, working on the same problem or the view of "school medicine", when
    the group is working on a revolutionary new approach, etc.). Another
    aspect that must not be neglected is that this omega often voices the
    secret concerns of others in the group and as long s/he does that, those
    others will not produce similar "wrong" behavior.

    That doesn't exclude that sometimes you might have to get rid of an
    extreme Omega. But inevitably another one will take over the role
    (weaker than the predecessor). Get rid of your (weaker and weaker)
    Omegas until you do not experience any real problems from him/her and
    you will almost certainly have a group without any dynamic. Not really
    what you want in these times.

    I know from my own experience, that if we only concentrate on impressing
    behaviour, technical skills etc. on persons and neglect persons feelings
    we only cure the symptoms - and throw away an awful lot with which we
    could work. Neglecting feelings can sometimes even be a killer (e.g. in
    a re-engineering process).

    Jochen.


  • 7.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-13-1997 07:39
    Jochen K F Althoff <Jochen.Althoff@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:

    (Hello Jochen)

    >>... before I comment on that let me apologize, if the style (NOT the
    contents) of my first eMail offended you. Maybe I got carried away a
    little bit too much...<<

    No problem.

    >>... Unfortunately I have to object to your above statement...<<

    That's OK.

    >>... To my mind we can't be concerned with behaviour and neglect feelings
    at the same time...<<

    In the work place we must first be concerned with behavior then feelings.

    >>... Behavior follows feelings...<<

    If I have the intellectual capacity to know that I should be empathetic
    then I may react with empathy without feeling empathy.

    >>... Now we could say, that we are not interested in how a person feels,
    as long s/he "functions" in the way that is required...<<

    We never know how a person feels even if they tell us we cannot know.

    >>... May be we could devise a measure/training that would produce the
    desired behavior despite the feelings that caused the original "wrong"
    behavior...<<

    Changing behavior is a hard tasks, that is why psychologists need more than
    1 appointment with their patients to help them chance.

    >>.... But we can be certain, that after a while that person's behavior
    will "deteriorate" again to the original behaviour; because the feelings
    are still the same...<<

    Yes, so true, but how long does it take to change feelings? How many
    episodes of poor behavior do the other employees suffer through while
    trying to change person's feelings to that his behavior changes? I think
    the process is too long and too likely to fail, therefore work on behavior
    at the same time.

    >>.... We mustn't be afraid to work with feelings...<<

    I agree, that is why poorly behaving employees must told to change their
    behavior or be gone. It is the feelings of the other employees that are
    more important than the feelings of the poorly behaving employee.

    >>... They are important indicators, especially in an organization...<<

    I agree, but it is an employee's behavior, not their feelings, that cause
    problems for other employees.

    >>... If those feelings produce a behaviour that is identified as being
    "problematic" then we as consultants have something to work with (if we are
    not afraid of working with feelings), as that behaviour will almost
    certainly also point at a problem of the organization...<<

    If those feelings do not produce a problem the feelings can still be there.
    Are we not more concerned with behavior than feelings?

    >>... And almost always will we find that the organization benefits, if
    the behaviour of one person is seen and discussed in the context of the
    group/team s/he is in and is not only taken as the sole problem of that
    particular person...<<

    I agree completely--the statement used behaviors not feelings.

    >>... this omega often voices the secret concerns of others in the group
    and as long s/he does that, those others will not produce similar "wrong"
    behavior...<<

    Voicing the secret is a behavior. I can have the same feelings yet say
    nothing.

    >>... Get rid of your (weaker and weaker) Omegas until you do not
    experience any real problems from him/her and you will almost certainly
    have a group without any dynamic. Not really what you want in these
    times...<<

    I agree, and employers do that all too often since many managers think
    disagreement is unhealthy, which it isn't. However, there is a huge
    difference between an assertive Omega and and an aggressive Omega. One is
    healthy the other is not.

    >>... if we only concentrate on impressing behaviour, technical skills etc.
    on persons and neglect persons feelings we only cure the symptoms - and
    throw away an awful lot with which we could work...<<

    Seems to me that managers are often rewarded for their technical skills and
    not their interpersonal skills.

    >>... Neglecting feelings can sometimes even be a killer (e.g. in a
    re-engineering process)...<

    I think we may agree more than you may realize. I say that we all need to
    take other peoples' feelings into consideration, however, our own feelings
    cannot be used justify our own behavior that abuses other peoples'
    feelings.

    Bob


  • 8.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-13-1997 09:56
    Hi Jack,

    I am totally in synch with the desire and need to be attuned to whether
    someone besides ourselves is getting helped. And I like your ideas, below.
    I'll stick with my observation though that somethings are better not
    "measured." Maybe, we have to be more creative in following the "clients'"
    lead on this?

    From: Jack Ring <jring@AMUG.ORG>

    on Sat, 11 Oct 1997, "Donald P. Austin" wrote

    --snip --
    >There are plenty of areas that we can help people with
    >(I don't know that "training" is always the best word) which are not
    >measurable, for example how much empathy they try to have for someone else.

    If you can't measure it how do you know you are helping them? Maybe you
    mean well but are really just helping yourself.

    Don Austin, Ph.D.
    _____________________________________
    Department of Organizational Behavior
    Case Western Reserve University
    Cleveland, OH 44106 (216) 932-8421
    _____________________________________

    Researching processes with which small
    groups create valued organization.

    Creating Appreciative Dialogue.


  • 9.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-13-1997 11:28
    At 09:55 AM 10/13/97 -0400, Donald P. Austin wrote:
    >I am totally in synch with the desire and need to be attuned to whether
    >someone besides ourselves is getting helped. And I like your ideas, below.
    >I'll stick with my observation though that somethings are better not
    >"measured." Maybe, we have to be more creative in following the "clients'"
    >lead on this?
    >
    >From: Jack Ring <jring@AMUG.ORG>>on Sat, 11 Oct 1997, "Donald P.
    Austin" wrote
    >
    >--snip --
    >>There are plenty of areas that we can help people with (I don't know that
    "training" is always the best word) which are not measurable, for example
    how much empathy they try to have for someone else.
    >
    >If you can't measure it how do you know you are helping them? Maybe you
    >mean well but are really just helping yourself.
    >Don Austin, Ph.D.

    We have been working with a management education program for dairy farmers
    for nine years. Even though the conversation string above is slightly
    removed from our area of concern, it caught my eye because it is an area
    where we have constantly struggled.

    We have been able to measure the impact of our training to a fair degree.
    However, there are times when impact is very difficult to measure. This is
    particularly true in our situation, teaching hard working people who are
    more used to measuring the results of technical change, usually quickly
    and/or easily.

    What advice might you have to help this type of learner appreciate (rather
    quickly) the use of newly learned management skills? What type of
    measurement process could help them and us to guage the worth of
    implementation of these skills?

    Clint Young
    R. Clinton Young - cyoung@cce.cornell.edu
    Ext. Spec./PR0-DAIRY
    110 Morrison Hall
    Cornell University
    Ithaca, NY 14853 "In life, change is inevitable. In business,
    change is vital."
    Warren Bennis
    Tel. 607-255-4802
    Fax 607-255-1335


  • 10.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-14-1997 01:22
    Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:27:50 -0400
    From: Clint Young <cyoung@CCE.CORNELL.EDU>
    Subject: Re: Training Effectiveness

    edited snip:

    >I am totally in synch with the desire and need to be attuned to whether
    >someone besides ourselves is getting helped.

    >I'll stick with my observation though that somethings are better not
    >"measured." Maybe, we have to be more creative in following the "clients'"
    >lead on this?

    The question:

    We have been working with a management education program for dairy farmers
    for nine years. [This] is an area where we have constantly struggled.

    We have been able to measure the impact of our training to a fair degree.
    However, there are times when impact is very difficult to measure. This is
    particularly true in our situation, [that is] teaching hard working people
    who are more used to measuring the results of technical change, usually
    quickly
    and/or easily.

    What advice might you have to help this type of learner appreciate (rather
    quickly) the use of newly learned management skills? What type of
    measurement process could help them and us to gauge the worth of
    implementation of these skills?

    First of all, I just have to say that Cornell is my alma mater, from a way
    long time ago, so I can almost "see" you there. Sorry for the diversion,
    but couldn't resist.

    My answer to your question is very philosophical, and may not seem
    practical to many of you. Don't mean to diminish the significance of your
    question as you are living it, but I would need to reframe it for myself.

    I only believe in change efforts which are motivated from within. So, I
    would ask the participants from the start to explore and specify their
    motivations and what measurements they were interested in, whether
    subjective or objective or both.

    Now, having heard these and possible discussed them, it's up to me to
    consider how I can or cannot engage with the changees on their terms. Will
    I expect them to see change as they are looking for it? If so, we're off
    and running. If not, then maybe I should back out, or consider changing my
    approach to better suit the situation.

    Maybe they would surprise you, in your situation, if you were to proceed
    this way (maybe you already have?). Maybe they would actually show some
    interest in more subtle or longer term change? I only said maybe .....

    What do you think, Clint?

    Don Austin, Ph.D.
    _____________________________________
    Department of Organizational Behavior
    Case Western Reserve University
    Cleveland, OH 44106 (216) 932-8421
    _____________________________________

    Researching processes with which small
    groups create valued organization.

    Creating Appreciative Dialogue.


  • 11.  Training Effectiveness

    Posted 10-14-1997 01:32
    I have come in late to this discussion and would like to comment on some
    of the points raised by different people.

    > > >>..." There are plenty of areas that we can help people
    > with...which are
    > > not measurable, for example how much empathy they try to have for
    > someone
    > > else"...<<
    > >
    > >" Can't we solicit feedback from the person's colleagues,
    > subordinates and
    > > supervisors to determine if the person's behavior has improved? If
    > it
    > > hasn't improved, does it matter how much empathy he has? Aren't we
    > more
    > > concerned with behavior than feelings?"
    >

    > To my mind we can't be concerned with behaviour and neglect feelings
    > at the same time. Behavior follows feelings.Now we could say, that we
    > are not interested in how a person feels, as long s/he "functions" in
    > the way that is required. May be we could devise a measure/training
    > that would produce the desired behavior
    > despite the feelings that caused the original "wrong" behavior. But we
    > can be certain, that after a while that person's behavior will
    > "deteriorate" again to the original behaviour; because the feelings
    > are still the same.
    >
    > We mustn't be afraid to work with feelings. They are important
    > indicators, especially in an organization. If those feelings produce a
    > behaviour that is identified as being "problematic" then we as
    > consultants have something to work with (if we are not afraid of
    > working with feelings), as that behaviour will almost certainly also
    > point at a problem of the organization. And almost always will we find
    > that the organization benefits, if the behaviour of one person is seen
    > and
    > discussed in the context of the groupt/team s/he is in and is not only
    > taken as the sole problem of that particular person.
    >

    To my mind this discussion of "feelings" and "behavior" is missing some
    very important viewpoints. First, I think it is irrelevant whether
    feelings precede behavior or not. In fact, I could argue that in some
    situations some people consciously playacting "being successful" in a
    situation can feel successful. In fact, many people who are afraid (of
    something or other) playact not feeling afraid and use that method to
    overcome their inner barrier.

    Secondly, all feelings have behavioral components. We may not be able
    to perceive them outright, we may not have the necessary sensitivity,
    but their behavioral manifestations are there.

    Thirdly, "working with feelings" covers a vast realm of intervention
    tactics, many of which might be viewed as inappropriate, insensitive,
    ... in other words, apparent evidence of the consultant "being afraid of
    working with feelings", "avoiding dealing with feelings", and similar
    such professional failings. And, yet they may in fact be "the" best way
    of dealing with the situation.

    In pointing out these paradoxes, or, at least, in arguing that there are
    several sides to each of the stated points of view, I want to clear the
    road to look at what I consider has been overlooked in the discussion
    thus far: namely, what is the goal of the intended intervention? What do
    we want to accomplish? And, were we to achieve that goal, what will
    that do for the organization?

    It seems to me that once we are clear about this, what we should and can
    measure becomes clearer. I don't really know if you can measure
    "empathy", nor do I know whether collecting anonymous ratings of a
    person's "empathy" says much about that person's skill in that regard,
    but that is not the question I would even want to ask.

    For example, let's assume that a manager's direct reports complain that
    he doesn't understand them, that he lacks empathy. I would want to
    know, first of all, were that manager in fact "empathic", what
    difference would that make in team functioning, morale, etc., in very
    specific and concrete terms? Unless I have that information, how can I
    choose a useful intervention?

    A manager once complained to me about an employee who was negative and
    critical about everything and anything. "Morose" doesn't even begin to
    cover how he saw her. Despite this style, she was very productive. Her
    team mates simply avoided her. The real problem was the manager -- he
    couldn't stand her!! The purpose of my intervention had to be helping
    him do something. I suggested that every morning for the next two
    weeks, he come in to work before she does, sit down next to her desk and
    lay out a litany of complaints (either made up or true) he had about
    anything and everything. If she tried one-upping him, then he had to
    one-up her with an even more drastic a complaint. During the day,
    whenever she would begin complaining, he was to sit down by her desk and
    one-up her. Soon everyone caught on to the "act" and begain doing the
    same. The net result of this "unempathic, cruel, unfeeling"
    intervention was that the woman stopped complaining, became more of a
    team member, begain to socialize with the others, and would begin
    laughing whenever someone would over-complain in response to a complaint
    she raised.

    My point -- a good part of it all is either in the eyes of the beholder
    or in his/her glass.

    Bernie













    --
    Bernard Liebowitz, PhD
    Management Consultants to Business and Industry
    Chicago, Illinois
    website} www.liebowitzassoc.com
    e-mail} bernie@liebowitzassoc.com
    tel} 773/334-2003
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