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On 16 Oct 97 at 19:18, Sandi L. Dinger wrote:

> I'm a doctoral student, wanting to eventually go into academia, but my recent
> experience as a TA for a large lecture-style class has really made me doubt
> many things about the educational system in general.

I started TA'ing during my B.A., and did my first college teaching
stint during my M.A. What I learned during the college teaching gig
(which was horrific for everyone (including my poor students), was
that it was simply up to me, not to complain about the students, the
craziness'es in the system, etc, but to work to become the best, most
inspiring teacher I could possibly be (still on the journey several
decades later).

>
> I look out at the majority of faces in my discussion sections and see such
> disinterested expressions --- no matter what types of exercises and
> discussion topics we cover, the only time they seem remotely interested is
> when we are reviewing for the exams.

Been there...a horrible sinking feeling for me, I remember, being
intimidated by the responsibility I chose to inspire and teach not
only the facts but a love of whatever I was teaching.

> And the grades!!! It's sad to see how grades and not the pursuit of
> knowledge for knowledge's sake is the driving factor for many (most?)
> students. How did we get the system into such a rut??? And what about how we
> test students (I'm talking mostly about large lectures that use multiple
> choice exams because they're easier to grade)?

If you build your own skills as a teacher, you don't have to worry,
because they will learn, regardless of how they treat the grades,
etc. Make them learn in spite of the system, as my graduate
supervisor used to say.

> I guess I'm just a bit depressed about the whole system. What can we do to
> catch student's attention and can we ever reach the ones that are so
> transactional that their grades are the ONLY thing that matter?

There are a number of sets of skills that are almost always
effective--one family called stimulus variation, another probing, the
use of different ranges of questions, linking the content to real
life issues for the students, etc. They are all learnable. None of
them depend on anything but your own ability to do it.

There you go, a little inspirational message by someone who has been
there, and stayed in the profession.


Robert Bacal, Inst.For Cooperative Communication, rbacal@escape.ca
Visit our Resource Centre for articles on mgmt.,training,communication, and defusing hostility
at http://www.escape.ca/~rbacal (204) 888-9290
*Site Last Updated On Sept.11, 1997*

Hello everyone,

I'm a doctoral student, wanting to eventually go into academia, but my recent
experience as a TA for a large lecture-style class has really made me doubt
many things about the educational system in general.

I look out at the majority of faces in my discussion sections and see such
disinterested expressions --- no matter what types of exercises and
discussion topics we cover, the only time they seem remotely interested is
when we are reviewing for the exams.

And the grades!!! It's sad to see how grades and not the pursuit of
knowledge for knowledge's sake is the driving factor for many (most?)
students. How did we get the system into such a rut??? And what about how we
test students (I'm talking mostly about large lectures that use multiple
choice exams because they're easier to grade)?

I guess I'm just a bit depressed about the whole system. What can we do to
catch student's attention and can we ever reach the ones that are so
transactional that their grades are the ONLY thing that matter?

I'd appreciate any comments you might have on the topic.

Sandi

I too am a long time teacher/learner. I won't offer you a sophisticated,
intellectual answer, just some simple things that help me. A note - I
teach accounting to non-accountants in about 1/2 of my classes. And I am
at times daunted by the ame issues you mention. However, I love
accounting as a discipline and as an intellectual pursuit.
1. I try to pass my enthusiasm and excitement on to my students.
2. I try to make understanding accounting relevant to the student's
goals.
3. I use mixed teaching methods to approach everyone at some level.
4. If a student is trying I try not to blame them for their lack of
understanding and instead try to take a new approach of try to discover
wht is getting in the way of understanding.
5. I allow students who do not try to take responsibility for
their own failure to learn. In fact I insist on it.
6. I make challenging assignments out of class and require students to
engage each other, me, other professors, and business professionals at
times to complete the work.
7. I remind myself, when I begin to lose faith, of the students for
which
I know what I said or did for them made a real difference.
8. Although I try to reach all my students I try not to focus on those
that may essentially be unreachable by me or my subject matter.
9. I adhere to a personal code that keeps me in balance. It goes
something like this - Although I cannot improve the whole
world I can, on a daily basis through concentrated effort, make
incremental improvements in the little corner of the world that is allotted to
me. And I am obligated to do so.

By the way, I have been blessed with teachers that have been excellent
role models.

Don't give up the ship - if it were easy anyone could do it.

Sorry about the length. I guess you pushed my hot button.
*****************************************************************
Kanalis Ockree e-mail: zzockr@acc.wuacc.edu
School of Business fax: 913-231-1063
Washburn University phone: 913-231-1010 X1589
Topeka, KS 66621
*****************************************************************

Sandi L. Dinger wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm a doctoral student, wanting to eventually go into academia, but my recent
> experience as a TA for a large lecture-style class has really made me doubt
> many things about the educational system in general.
>
> I look out at the majority of faces in my discussion sections and see such
> disinterested expressions --- no matter what types of exercises and
> discussion topics we cover, the only time they seem remotely interested is
> when we are reviewing for the exams.
>
> And the grades!!! It's sad to see how grades and not the pursuit of
> knowledge for knowledge's sake is the driving factor for many (most?)
> students. How did we get the system into such a rut??? And what about how we
> test students (I'm talking mostly about large lectures that use multiple
> choice exams because they're easier to grade)?
>
> I guess I'm just a bit depressed about the whole system. What can we do to
> catch student's attention and can we ever reach the ones that are so
> transactional that their grades are the ONLY thing that matter?
>
> I'd appreciate any comments you might have on the topic.
>
> Sandi

Hi Sandi,
I'm sorry to hear that you are so despondent - but remember above all
else, if any one person in the lecture or training room has to be
motivated and positive about the processes it has to be you. Once you
start doubting the system so will those who look to you to lead them
through it. If the processes are wrong then change them, if parts of it
don't work then fix them. You have the right - no, you have the moral
obligation - to do so. But please, don't be like many academics I know
who spend most of their life slagging off (isn't that a quaint
Australian term) at the very system that is their life blood. A system
is only as good as the people who maintain it - no system runs itself.
So if there is something wrong with it the finger must point at the
individuals within it.

I won't even try to answer your questions because in my experience you
will only find the answers in life and a genuine belief in the ability
of education and learning to change people. Sure there will be those who
will only be there for the grades - so give them grades. There will be
those who are there only for learning - so give them learning. And there
will be those who are there because their parents sent them or because
it is raining outside or because there is nothing on TV - so be nice to
them. They will either respond in kind or will continue to ignore what
is going on.

I know it is hard to sit in a lecture theatre with 400 or so other
people and seem, to yourself at least, that you are the only one who
cares about what the lecturer is talking about. Imagine how hard it is
for him/her!

Think positive, think change and continuous growth, but most of all
think what you can do to make the processes better for those who want to
be there, who have the potential to want to be there, and/or for those
who don't want to be there but will have to live through whatever
strategies you put in place for the others. Don't alienate this last
group. Don't treat them like second class citizens because you may never
know what is going on in their hearts. Don't treat them as any less
because of it.

But, most of all, remember the majority of people with higher education
qualifications usually end up working for someone who doesn't. Be nice
to everyone because those whose minds aren't in the classroom may be
dreaming of the organisation they are going to one day run and to whom
you may have to turn for support or, at worst, a job.

Chin up, keep smiling and nil illegitimus desperandum (and please, dear
readers, don't send me a million emails to tell me I got that wrong. Let
my ignorance keep me safe).

PHIL RUTHERFORD

Sandi

Don't fret. A large class is a revenue generator, not a classroom.
When you get in a small class you can make a difference. The "grades only"
students have had it beat into them for years. It takes a few weeks to
change it. If you don't...who will


John
At 07:18 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>I'm a doctoral student, wanting to eventually go into academia, but my recent
>experience as a TA for a large lecture-style class has really made me doubt
>many things about the educational system in general.
>
>I look out at the majority of faces in my discussion sections and see such
>disinterested expressions --- no matter what types of exercises and
>discussion topics we cover, the only time they seem remotely interested is
>when we are reviewing for the exams.
>
>And the grades!!! It's sad to see how grades and not the pursuit of
>knowledge for knowledge's sake is the driving factor for many (most?)
>students. How did we get the system into such a rut??? And what about how we
>test students (I'm talking mostly about large lectures that use multiple
>choice exams because they're easier to grade)?
>
>I guess I'm just a bit depressed about the whole system. What can we do to
>catch student's attention and can we ever reach the ones that are so
>transactional that their grades are the ONLY thing that matter?
>
>I'd appreciate any comments you might have on the topic.
>
>Sandi
>
>



John Sullivan
San Francisco State University

Professor and HR Program Coordinator

On 20 Oct 97 at 11:59, crawley wrote:

> Currently the way the system works requires that the students take on a
> very passive role in their own education. Because teaching students
> more useful and active skills like interpretation, independent thought,
> logical reasoning and innovation are difficult to measure we often fall
> back on the same old methods of assessing the depth of a student's memory
> for course content.

I could buy that the system ACCEPTS students in a very passive role,
but I can't buy that it REQUIRES it. Isn't this a bit of an
over-generalization?

Robert Bacal, Inst.For Cooperative Communication, rbacal@escape.ca
Visit our Resource Centre for articles on mgmt.,training,communication, and defusing hostility
at http://www.escape.ca/~rbacal (204) 888-9290
*Site Last Updated On Sept.11, 1997*

Hi Sandi,

> I guess I'm just a bit depressed about the whole system. What can we do to
> catch student's attention and can we ever reach the ones that are so
> transactional that their grades are the ONLY thing that matter?

I'm having the same difficulties with some of my students here and I've
come to the conclusion that the problem does not lie with the students but
with the system. These students who are interested only in grades are the
ones which have learnt the lessons our institutions are teaching them the
best. Students are not rewarded for taking an active interest in their
chosen field of study, they are rewarded only for achieving good grades
and in the current climate students more often than not have to work
increasingly long hours to fund time at school/college. Many simply haven't
got time to spend on non-accredited aspects of the course. As educators
it is our job to help the students to work within the limitations of
their situations. Radical changes are required.

Currently the way the system works requires that the students take on a
very passive role in their own education. Because teaching students
more useful and active skills like interpretation, independent thought,
logical reasoning and innovation are difficult to measure we often fall
back on the same old methods of assessing the depth of a student's memory
for course content.

I feel certain that if we want more active students we should encourage
activity not passivity. Anyone agree? Disagree?

Regards,

Ruth.

On 20 Oct 97 at 17:09, crawley wrote:

> It is all too easy for a student to attend the lectures and tutorials
> scheduled for them, read the books on the reading lists they are given,
> perform the exercises which their tutors set for them and to get
> reasonable grades and as Sandi has observed this is what most students do.
> What is required of the students in their eyes, then, is that they do
> exactly what I've described above; a very passive approach to learning.

Perhaps I have a more optimistic view of students, then.
>
> I think that students often get the blame for the system's mistakes - we
> create the environment they enter, after all, and in doing so we are the
> ones who shape their perceptions and expectations of what a higher
> education means.

That's certainly true, but young adults are not empty vessels and
will choose their paths. They can choose to be passive or not. I do
not see one or the other as required...I think that view is
disempowering to students. We have an obligation to try to inspire,
lead, and show the excitement of learning, but we need to recognize
that students still may choose their path. They would do so
regardless of the "system".



Students do not come with an innate thirst for
> knowledge; this has to be inspired within them by the influences they
> meet. Sometimes we get lucky and someone (family, teachers, friends) has
> already instilled a healthy curiosity in a student but for those who
> haven't been given this gift it is up to us and the system to open their
> eyes.

Students come with what they come with. Some have a thirst for
knowledge, some want a job, some want to party...etc. That would be
the case regardless of "the system". One has to teach what one is
faced with, not imaginary students.

Robert Bacal, Inst.For Cooperative Communication, rbacal@escape.ca
Visit our Resource Centre for articles on mgmt.,training,communication, and defusing hostility
at http://www.escape.ca/~rbacal (204) 888-9290
*Site Last Updated On Sept.11, 1997*

Ruth writes:

>Currently the way the system works requires that the students take on a
very passive role in their own education....I feel certain that if we want
more active students we should encourage activity not passivity. Anyone
agree? Disagree?

Agreed, from experience. Almost 25 years I enrolled in a school of journalism,
which, like many such schools, had extremely liberal degreee requirements.
This freed me to take electives all over the map, with no rhyme or reason
("The Structure of Scientific Revolutions," "The Thriller in Film and
Literature," "Novels of Bellow and Mailer," "Highlights of Astronomy").
Picking my schedule was a thrill every quarter, with such an array of
possibilities, as opposed to filling out the 200 series of classes before
going on to the 300, or whatever. I had never been industrious as a
student--in fact I hated high school, and was a real malcontent and
troublemaker there--but I was thrilled taking taking college classes in
subjects that interested, tantalized or intrigued me. I studied diligently and
graduated with honors.

Every now and then I feel the pang of regret at never seriously studying a
foreign language, math, or Shakespeare, and my acquaintance with history has
some yawning gaps. But these regrets are trifling compared with the lifelong
love of study and learning I'm convinced I acquired through a largely
self-directed college education.

Cheers,
Tom Petzinger

*------*------*------*-------*-------*-------*
Thomas Petzinger Jr.
tompetz@msn.com
"The Front Lines"--Every Friday in The Wall Street Journal
*------*------*------*-------*-------*-------*
"The arms of consciousness reach out and grope, and the longer they are, the
better. Tentacles, not wings, are Apollo's natural members." --Vladimir
Nabokov

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Robert Bacal wrote:

> I could buy that the system ACCEPTS students in a very passive role,
> but I can't buy that it REQUIRES it. Isn't this a bit of an
> over-generalization?

No, I don't think so. In the UK students only really learn how to become
good students toward their final year when they are required to conduct
a major study of their own choosing. Although daunting, the prospect of
self-guided, autonomous study is very liberating and (whilst it proves too
much for the minor few) most become absorbed by their work and learn about
literature searches, experimental design, project management, statistical
analysis......transferable skills which will help them in later life but
which could also have helped them as students had they been given the
means to acquire such skills at the begininng of their course of study.

It is all too easy for a student to attend the lectures and tutorials
scheduled for them, read the books on the reading lists they are given,
perform the exercises which their tutors set for them and to get
reasonable grades and as Sandi has observed this is what most students do.
What is required of the students in their eyes, then, is that they do
exactly what I've described above; a very passive approach to learning.

I think that students often get the blame for the system's mistakes - we
create the environment they enter, after all, and in doing so we are the
ones who shape their perceptions and expectations of what a higher
education means. Students do not come with an innate thirst for
knowledge; this has to be inspired within them by the influences they
meet. Sometimes we get lucky and someone (family, teachers, friends) has
already instilled a healthy curiosity in a student but for those who
haven't been given this gift it is up to us and the system to open their
eyes.

Apologies for such a lengthy response but...you know.

Ruth.

Hi all,
I agree with Ruth. If we are in the game of assessing only our own
productivity (as opposed to that of the student) then we will naturally
take the shortest and most easily accessible path. This is often the
implementation of a singular examination (and when there are in excess
of 50 or so students this exam isn't going to be too onerous to mark).

Our experience is that one must first determine what the desired outcome
of the application of the skills and knowledge must be, derive the
curriculum from this and then assess against the outcome - not against
the curriculum.

This way we can assess both the application of the skill and the
underlying or underpinning knowledge used to support that application.
But, most importantly of all, the assessment is carried out against the
background of the context or environment in which the student is going
to apply the skills and knowledge. For example, students learning
management are assessed in the professional field in which they will be
applying the management competencies - this may be medical, industrial,
educational, multi-national, small business, or whatever. This not only
guarantees their attention, it also guarantees that they are provided
with a usable set of skills and underpinning knowledge on their entry or
return to the workplace.

I've been active in this for about 5-6 years now and a day has never
gone by when someone hasn't rung up to thank us for this approach. One
student rang up to say that she had had an extra $3million injected into
her project because of the way she applied the skills and knowledge she
was studying.

Almost makes the skin tingle doesn't it?

Regards
PHIL RUTHERFORD
robnphil@ozemail.com.au





crawley wrote:
>
> Hi Sandi,
>
> > I guess I'm just a bit depressed about the whole system. What can we do to
> > catch student's attention and can we ever reach the ones that are so
> > transactional that their grades are the ONLY thing that matter?
>
> I'm having the same difficulties with some of my students here and I've
> come to the conclusion that the problem does not lie with the students but
> with the system. These students who are interested only in grades are the
> ones which have learnt the lessons our institutions are teaching them the
> best. Students are not rewarded for taking an active interest in their
> chosen field of study, they are rewarded only for achieving good grades
> and in the current climate students more often than not have to work
> increasingly long hours to fund time at school/college. Many simply haven't
> got time to spend on non-accredited aspects of the course. As educators
> it is our job to help the students to work within the limitations of
> their situations. Radical changes are required.
>
> Currently the way the system works requires that the students take on a
> very passive role in their own education. Because teaching students
> more useful and active skills like interpretation, independent thought,
> logical reasoning and innovation are difficult to measure we often fall
> back on the same old methods of assessing the depth of a student's memory
> for course content.
>
> I feel certain that if we want more active students we should encourage
> activity not passivity. Anyone agree? Disagree?
>
> Regards,
>
> Ruth.

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Robert Bacal wrote:

> Perhaps I have a more optimistic view of students, then.

This isn't a matter of optimism or pessimism its a matter of pragmatics
and realism. Students, as a rule, do what they need to do to get the
results they think they deserve. Its a very simple equation which casts
no aspersions either good or bad upon the students themselves.

> young adults are not empty vessels and will choose their paths.

Precisely my point, and I'm not just talking about young adults either;
In the UK almost 40% of our student intake are mature learners. Whatever
their background and whatever their experience its unlikely that these
students have ever been to university before. Without being set an
example and taught how to become autonomous in their learning only a very
exceptional few will be aware that they should be doing anything more than
attending classes and doing the assignments set them (much like their
entire schooling before reaching university). My point is that in order
for the students to make a choice as to their level of involvement and
responsibility for their educations, they first need to be aware of what
their options are.


> ...I think that view is disempowering to students.

Not at all. What I'm saying is that the students are extremely capable
and that the system as it currently stands discourages students from
maximising upon their potential. I am very much a believer in the
Nuffield school of thought which was used for a number of years in schools
and colleges here in the UK but which fell into decline because the
standard required of tutors is extremely high and is difficult to
maintain.

> we need to recognize that students still may choose their path. They
> would do so regardless of the "system".

'Aint necessarily so. As a management trainer you must be aware of the
effects of the environment and organisational culture upon the individual.
The evidence of this in past studies is overwhelming and undeniable.

> Students come with what they come with. Some have a thirst for
> knowledge, some want a job, some want to party...etc. That would be
> the case regardless of "the system". One has to teach what one is
> faced with, not imaginary students.

Gosh, that's a rather fatalistic statement isnt it? Do you really believe
that the system has no influence on the decisions made by the individuals
within it? Are not people living in Communist countries affected by the
system in which they live? Are we in Britain not affected by the
government under which we currently live? Does not company policy
influence the actions and behaviours of its staff? How can you possibly
separate the individuals from the system? People can choose to reject the
system but unless they have experienced a variety of other systems as well
they can't help but be influenced by the system with which they are most
familiar and in the case of our students the system they are most familiar
with is usually high school where the culture is one of passive learning.

Regards,

Ruth.