Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  Evaluating management training

    Posted 10-17-1997 01:58
    In a message dated 10/13/97 11:39:35 AM, R. Clinton Young wrote:

    <<What advice might you have to help this type of learner appreciate (rather
    quickly) the use of newly learned management skills? What type of
    measurement process could help them and us to gauge the worth of
    implementation of these skills?>>

    Clint,

    One of the greatest tools to come along in this area is 360 feedback (or
    muti-rater assessment). In my experience, it has been one of the quickest
    ways to get the attention of managers as to the need for change and then how
    they are implementing the changes. Since the majority of management skills
    (read "behaviors") pertain to the relationship between the manager and the
    person being managed, what better way to measure change than by asking people
    who experience the change to provide feedback on what they see? Granted,
    they are providing feedback from their perception, but isn't that what
    managers have to manage? If I perceive you as a poor communicator in your
    relationship with me, that is how I will relate to you. If you do something
    to change that perception, you have just changed the relationship. If that
    something came from a training program, I would rate that program successful.

    Best wishes,

    Rick Stamm
    The TEAM Approach(R)
    Changing the Way America Works... Together(TM)
    TeamDoc@aol.com
    717/656-0788


  • 2.  Evaluating management training

    Posted 10-17-1997 18:51
    > In a message dated 10/13/97 11:39:35 AM, R. Clinton Young wrote:
    >
    > <<What advice might you have to help this type of learner appreciate (rather
    > quickly) the use of newly learned management skills? What type of
    > measurement process could help them and us to gauge the worth of
    > implementation of these skills?>>
    >
    I picked this message up from another reply and somehow missed the
    original therefore I'm not sure whether or not my reply is going to be
    of help. Nevertheless.....

    There has been a lot said about such assessment tools as 360 degree
    assessment etc where a group are asked evaluate and rate the worth of an
    individual's performance. In my experience, if those doing the
    assessment are not privy to the full range of skills and knowledge that
    person must implement, and the environment or context in which he/she is
    expected to implement them, then there is no way a fair, valid or
    reliable assessment can be made. Only personal opinion and often tainted
    with unfulfilled expectations and personal bias.

    The truth of the matter is that there is no way in which an individual's
    worth can be measured without looking at the worth of the function in
    which the individual fills. What is the worth of this function to the
    organisation (in dollar, productivity percentage [including the
    productivity of others], control of loss, or resource usage terms) and
    this is most often only a subjective guess.

    An organisation is the sum total of the individuals. Measurement of it
    is carried out at a number of levels - not just by those who work with
    or for this individual but buy the degree of influence that individual
    has on them, on the branch/section in which he/she works, on the output
    of that branch/section or the division/company as a whole, and on the
    way in which the organisation itself is viewed for it's utility and
    impact on the environment or community in which it is found.

    I have attached a model that I have found most useful when talking to
    management and staff about where and how individual skills and knowledge
    can be evaluated and assessed. If anyone wants more information please
    feel free to give me a yell on email.



    Regards

    PHIL RUTHERFORD


  • 3.  Evaluating management training

    Posted 10-17-1997 20:42
    As a strong supporter of 360 degree feedback, I would add the following
    proviso when it is used as part of work assessment. (The key word here is
    'part'.) You are right that this form of assessment can't tap the
    performance of the job itself, but it can - in my view better than any other
    means - assess the 'how' of the performance. In other words, how people
    perceive the visible interpersonal actions of this individual in the course
    of his or her work is valid data. A model that seemed to work well with one
    organisation I know is weighting 60% for 'soft skills' assessment (perceptin
    via 360 is used here) and 40% for hitting targets and other 'results'
    areas - factual information available to individual and manager used here.

    It's the 60% areas that will help the individual move on to other tasks and
    responsibilities and remain marketable and employable in the future.

    Maybe that rounds out the discussion a bit.

    Jess Levant
    The Pennybank Partnership, London

    -----Original Message-----
    From: robnphil <robnphil@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    Date: 18 October 1997 12.09
    Subject: Re: Evaluating management training


    >> In a message dated 10/13/97 11:39:35 AM, R. Clinton Young wrote:
    >>
    >> <<What advice might you have to help this type of learner appreciate
    (rather
    >> quickly) the use of newly learned management skills? What type of
    >> measurement process could help them and us to gauge the worth of
    >> implementation of these skills?>>
    >>
    >I picked this message up from another reply and somehow missed the
    >original therefore I'm not sure whether or not my reply is going to be
    >of help. Nevertheless.....
    >
    >There has been a lot said about such assessment tools as 360 degree
    >assessment etc where a group are asked evaluate and rate the worth of an
    >individual's performance. In my experience, if those doing the
    >assessment are not privy to the full range of skills and knowledge that
    >person must implement, and the environment or context in which he/she is
    >expected to implement them, then there is no way a fair, valid or
    >reliable assessment can be made. Only personal opinion and often tainted
    >with unfulfilled expectations and personal bias.
    >
    >The truth of the matter is that there is no way in which an individual's
    >worth can be measured without looking at the worth of the function in
    >which the individual fills. What is the worth of this function to the
    >organisation (in dollar, productivity percentage [including the
    >productivity of others], control of loss, or resource usage terms) and
    >this is most often only a subjective guess.
    >
    >An organisation is the sum total of the individuals. Measurement of it
    >is carried out at a number of levels - not just by those who work with
    >or for this individual but buy the degree of influence that individual
    >has on them, on the branch/section in which he/she works, on the output
    >of that branch/section or the division/company as a whole, and on the
    >way in which the organisation itself is viewed for it's utility and
    >impact on the environment or community in which it is found.
    >
    >I have attached a model that I have found most useful when talking to
    >management and staff about where and how individual skills and knowledge
    >can be evaluated and assessed. If anyone wants more information please
    >feel free to give me a yell on email.
    >
    >
    >
    >Regards
    >
    >PHIL RUTHERFORD
    >


  • 4.  Evaluating management training

    Posted 10-18-1997 06:43
    When it comes to evaluating performance of individuals, I would
    hesitate to draw conclusions when one admits to using weighting
    factors which place a nominal 60% on "soft" skills, and 40% on
    "results", or in fact any such subjective/objective mix. Moreover,
    when the truth be told, all performance takes place in an
    environment which, if operating under statistical control, is a
    "random-based" environment; this means that while you may think
    you have the metrics to prove/disprove what it is you are
    evaluating, unless you have taken the "reported" evidence and
    applied proper statistical analysis to it, you have done nothing
    more than "tampered" with the evidence, and proven nothing.

    Let's say you are operating a retail establishment and you have
    been basing your evaluation on your employees' sales figures for
    the last month. What part does the system play in the figures?
    (The system meaning the facility, the stock on hand, the lighting,
    the time of year, the POS system, the day of the week, etc, etc.)
    And, what part does the individual play in the figures? And, what
    part does the relationship of the two play?

    In dealing with performance issues, it seems common to say that if
    one desires specificity, the utility of the metric becomes
    meaningless; all else is subjective and often innacurate due to
    many reasons - personalities, biases of one type or another, age,
    perceptions of roles, etc, etc. Often the most important aspects
    regarding performance are unknown and unknowable, since they are
    personal and inter-personal.

    It is perhaps falling back on the need to feel that one has
    "control" of what another is doing or has done, when we seek to
    evaluate performance of any kind, much less management training.
    When the purpose is clear, the roles understood, and the emphasis
    away from control and on to removing barriers, then such concepts
    as "evaluations" become increasingly meaningless and
    counter-productive.

    Jessica Levant wrote:
    >
    > As a strong supporter of 360 degree feedback, I would add the following
    > proviso when it is used as part of work assessment. (The key word here is
    > 'part'.) You are right that this form of assessment can't tap the
    > performance of the job itself, but it can - in my view better than any other
    > means - assess the 'how' of the performance. In other words, how people
    > perceive the visible interpersonal actions of this individual in the course
    > of his or her work is valid data. A model that seemed to work well with one
    > organisation I know is weighting 60% for 'soft skills' assessment (perceptin
    > via 360 is used here) and 40% for hitting targets and other 'results'
    > areas - factual information available to individual and manager used here.
    >
    > It's the 60% areas that will help the individual move on to other tasks and
    > responsibilities and remain marketable and employable in the future.
    >
    > Maybe that rounds out the discussion a bit.
    >
    > Jess Levant
    > The Pennybank Partnership, London
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: robnphil <robnphil@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    > Date: 18 October 1997 12.09
    > Subject: Re: Evaluating management training
    >
    > >> In a message dated 10/13/97 11:39:35 AM, R. Clinton Young wrote:
    > >>
    > >> <<What advice might you have to help this type of learner appreciate
    > (rather
    > >> quickly) the use of newly learned management skills? What type of
    > >> measurement process could help them and us to gauge the worth of
    > >> implementation of these skills?>>
    > >>
    > >I picked this message up from another reply and somehow missed the
    > >original therefore I'm not sure whether or not my reply is going to be
    > >of help. Nevertheless.....
    > >
    > >There has been a lot said about such assessment tools as 360 degree
    > >assessment etc where a group are asked evaluate and rate the worth of an
    > >individual's performance. In my experience, if those doing the
    > >assessment are not privy to the full range of skills and knowledge that
    > >person must implement, and the environment or context in which he/she is
    > >expected to implement them, then there is no way a fair, valid or
    > >reliable assessment can be made. Only personal opinion and often tainted
    > >with unfulfilled expectations and personal bias.
    > >
    > >The truth of the matter is that there is no way in which an individual's
    > >worth can be measured without looking at the worth of the function in
    > >which the individual fills. What is the worth of this function to the
    > >organisation (in dollar, productivity percentage [including the
    > >productivity of others], control of loss, or resource usage terms) and
    > >this is most often only a subjective guess.
    > >
    > >An organisation is the sum total of the individuals. Measurement of it
    > >is carried out at a number of levels - not just by those who work with
    > >or for this individual but buy the degree of influence that individual
    > >has on them, on the branch/section in which he/she works, on the output
    > >of that branch/section or the division/company as a whole, and on the
    > >way in which the organisation itself is viewed for it's utility and
    > >impact on the environment or community in which it is found.
    > >
    > >I have attached a model that I have found most useful when talking to
    > >management and staff about where and how individual skills and knowledge
    > >can be evaluated and assessed. If anyone wants more information please
    > >feel free to give me a yell on email.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Regards
    > >
    > >PHIL RUTHERFORD
    > >

    --
    ========================================================

    Sincerely,

    John Constantine
    Rainbird Management Consulting
    PO Box 23554
    Santa Fe, NM 87502-3554
    Rainbird@Trail.Com
    http:\\www.trail.com\~rainbird


  • 5.  Evaluating management training

    Posted 10-18-1997 13:16
    I agree that the weighting of 60%/40% is arbitrary - but the numbers are not
    as important as the concept - that the 'soft skills', those that the
    individual takes with them wherever they go, are crucial to managing in the
    changing, complex organisations of tomorrow (and often today) and having
    employees who are ready for what the business is becoming, not just what it
    is currently. Measuring performance by achievement of 'results', whatever
    the measurement, is always looking backwards. Nothing wrong with it -
    paying for it may even push people further, but developing personal
    abilities is a forward approach and some organisations are beginning to pay
    for that too.

    I don't think control has anything to do with it.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Constantine <rainbird@TRAIL.COM>
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    Date: 18 October 1997 12.02
    Subject: Re: Evaluating management training


    >When it comes to evaluating performance of individuals, I would
    >hesitate to draw conclusions when one admits to using weighting
    >factors which place a nominal 60% on "soft" skills, and 40% on
    >"results", or in fact any such subjective/objective mix. Moreover,
    >when the truth be told, all performance takes place in an
    >environment which, if operating under statistical control, is a
    >"random-based" environment; this means that while you may think
    >you have the metrics to prove/disprove what it is you are
    >evaluating, unless you have taken the "reported" evidence and
    >applied proper statistical analysis to it, you have done nothing
    >more than "tampered" with the evidence, and proven nothing.
    >
    >Let's say you are operating a retail establishment and you have
    >been basing your evaluation on your employees' sales figures for
    >the last month. What part does the system play in the figures?
    >(The system meaning the facility, the stock on hand, the lighting,
    >the time of year, the POS system, the day of the week, etc, etc.)
    >And, what part does the individual play in the figures? And, what
    >part does the relationship of the two play?
    >
    >In dealing with performance issues, it seems common to say that if
    >one desires specificity, the utility of the metric becomes
    >meaningless; all else is subjective and often innacurate due to
    >many reasons - personalities, biases of one type or another, age,
    >perceptions of roles, etc, etc. Often the most important aspects
    >regarding performance are unknown and unknowable, since they are
    >personal and inter-personal.
    >
    >It is perhaps falling back on the need to feel that one has
    >"control" of what another is doing or has done, when we seek to
    >evaluate performance of any kind, much less management training.
    >When the purpose is clear, the roles understood, and the emphasis
    >away from control and on to removing barriers, then such concepts
    >as "evaluations" become increasingly meaningless and
    >counter-productive.
    >
    >Jessica Levant wrote:
    >>
    >> As a strong supporter of 360 degree feedback, I would add the following
    >> proviso when it is used as part of work assessment. (The key word here
    is
    >> 'part'.) You are right that this form of assessment can't tap the
    >> performance of the job itself, but it can - in my view better than any
    other
    >> means - assess the 'how' of the performance. In other words, how people
    >> perceive the visible interpersonal actions of this individual in the
    course
    >> of his or her work is valid data. A model that seemed to work well with
    one
    >> organisation I know is weighting 60% for 'soft skills' assessment
    (perceptin
    >> via 360 is used here) and 40% for hitting targets and other 'results'
    >> areas - factual information available to individual and manager used
    here.
    >>
    >> It's the 60% areas that will help the individual move on to other tasks
    and
    >> responsibilities and remain marketable and employable in the future.
    >>
    >> Maybe that rounds out the discussion a bit.
    >>
    >> Jess Levant
    >> The Pennybank Partnership, London
    >>
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: robnphil <robnphil@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
    >> To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    >> Date: 18 October 1997 12.09
    >> Subject: Re: Evaluating management training
    >>
    >> >> In a message dated 10/13/97 11:39:35 AM, R. Clinton Young wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> <<What advice might you have to help this type of learner appreciate
    >> (rather
    >> >> quickly) the use of newly learned management skills? What type of
    >> >> measurement process could help them and us to gauge the worth of
    >> >> implementation of these skills?>>
    >> >>
    >> >I picked this message up from another reply and somehow missed the
    >> >original therefore I'm not sure whether or not my reply is going to be
    >> >of help. Nevertheless.....
    >> >
    >> >There has been a lot said about such assessment tools as 360 degree
    >> >assessment etc where a group are asked evaluate and rate the worth of an
    >> >individual's performance. In my experience, if those doing the
    >> >assessment are not privy to the full range of skills and knowledge that
    >> >person must implement, and the environment or context in which he/she is
    >> >expected to implement them, then there is no way a fair, valid or
    >> >reliable assessment can be made. Only personal opinion and often tainted
    >> >with unfulfilled expectations and personal bias.
    >> >
    >> >The truth of the matter is that there is no way in which an individual's
    >> >worth can be measured without looking at the worth of the function in
    >> >which the individual fills. What is the worth of this function to the
    >> >organisation (in dollar, productivity percentage [including the
    >> >productivity of others], control of loss, or resource usage terms) and
    >> >this is most often only a subjective guess.
    >> >
    >> >An organisation is the sum total of the individuals. Measurement of it
    >> >is carried out at a number of levels - not just by those who work with
    >> >or for this individual but buy the degree of influence that individual
    >> >has on them, on the branch/section in which he/she works, on the output
    >> >of that branch/section or the division/company as a whole, and on the
    >> >way in which the organisation itself is viewed for it's utility and
    >> >impact on the environment or community in which it is found.
    >> >
    >> >I have attached a model that I have found most useful when talking to
    >> >management and staff about where and how individual skills and knowledge
    >> >can be evaluated and assessed. If anyone wants more information please
    >> >feel free to give me a yell on email.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >Regards
    >> >
    >> >PHIL RUTHERFORD
    >> >
    >
    >--
    >========================================================
    >
    >Sincerely,
    >
    >John Constantine
    >Rainbird Management Consulting
    >PO Box 23554
    >Santa Fe, NM 87502-3554
    >Rainbird@Trail.Com
    >http:\\www.trail.com\~rainbird


  • 6.  Evaluating management training

    Posted 10-20-1997 06:50
    On 20 Oct 97 at 11:22, Rick Stamm wrote:

    > You point out one of the cautions in using 360 feedback. The assessment
    > should be designed around observable behaviors and given to raters who are in
    > a position to adequately observe that behavior. If 360 feedback is not used
    > properly it can be devistating, or at least a waste of precious resources.
    > But, if used correctly, it can be a significant event in the development of
    > any employee.

    I agree, but from what I gather much of it is of the "rating scale"
    approach, which isn't behavioural but judgmental. Does anyone know
    how configurable the software and instruments are for 360? I am
    wondering how off the shelf approaches can provide anything but the
    kindergarten report card format?

    Robert Bacal, Inst.For Cooperative Communication, rbacal@escape.ca
    Visit our Resource Centre for articles on mgmt.,training,communication, and defusing hostility
    at http://www.escape.ca/~rbacal (204) 888-9290
    *Site Last Updated On Sept.11, 1997*


  • 7.  Evaluating management training

    Posted 10-20-1997 11:22
    In a message dated 97-10-17 18:58:03 EDT, Phil Rutherford wrote:

    << There has been a lot said about such assessment tools as 360 degree
    assessment etc where a group are asked evaluate and rate the worth of an
    individual's performance. In my experience, if those doing the
    assessment are not privy to the full range of skills and knowledge that
    person must implement, and the environment or context in which he/she is
    expected to implement them, then there is no way a fair, valid or
    reliable assessment can be made >>

    Phil,

    You point out one of the cautions in using 360 feedback. The assessment
    should be designed around observable behaviors and given to raters who are in
    a position to adequately observe that behavior. If 360 feedback is not used
    properly it can be devistating, or at least a waste of precious resources.
    But, if used correctly, it can be a significant event in the development of
    any employee.

    Best wishes,
    Rick Stamm