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R.M.Crawley@BTON.AC.UK wrote:

>Currently the way the system works requires that the students take on a
>very passive role in their own education. Because teaching students
>more useful and active skills like interpretation, independent thought,
>logical reasoning and innovation are difficult to measure we often fall
>back on the same old methods of assessing the depth of a student's memory
>for course content.
>
>I feel certain that if we want more active students we should encourage
>activity not passivity. Anyone agree? Disagree?

Your observations about today's students are probably, but unfortunately,
largely correct. But it doesn't have to be that way. A different approach to
course design and curriculum design can make a significant difference.

It has been a while since my undergraduate days, but my classmates and I
definitely played an active role in our educational journey. Our courses were
typically 2 50 minute lectures a week, combined with a 50 minute preceptorial.
Preceptorials are discussion groups of 6 to 9 students and a faculty member.
Every one was expected to participate by forming, stating, and defending
positions on the subject of the moment. One cannot be passive in such an
environment.

We also had significant independent work that included a library-based research
paper junior year and a thesis senior year. At the time the thesis was quite a
challenge for most of us. But having travelled that road, almost all of us
say, avidly, that the trip was well worth the work required.


Don Kleist

Who graduated cum diploma many years ago, and is proud that he did.

Donald E Kleist wrote:
>
> R.M.Crawley@BTON.AC.UK wrote:
>
> >Currently the way the system works requires that the students take on a
> >very passive role in their own education. Because teaching students
> >more useful and active skills like interpretation, independent thought,
> >logical reasoning and innovation are difficult to measure we often fall
> >back on the same old methods of assessing the depth of a student's memory
> >for course content.
> >
> >I feel certain that if we want more active students we should encourage
> >activity not passivity. Anyone agree? Disagree?
>
> Your observations about today's students are probably, but unfortunately,
> largely correct. But it doesn't have to be that way. A different approach to
> course design and curriculum design can make a significant difference.
>
> It has been a while since my undergraduate days, but my classmates and I
> definitely played an active role in our educational journey. Our courses were
> typically 2 50 minute lectures a week, combined with a 50 minute preceptorial.
> Preceptorials are discussion groups of 6 to 9 students and a faculty member.
> Every one was expected to participate by forming, stating, and defending
> positions on the subject of the moment. One cannot be passive in such an
> environment.
>
> We also had significant independent work that included a library-based research
> paper junior year and a thesis senior year. At the time the thesis was quite a
> challenge for most of us. But having travelled that road, almost all of us
> say, avidly, that the trip was well worth the work required.
>
> Don Kleist
>
> Who graduated cum diploma many years ago, and is proud that he did.



I agree with Don's comments about passivity in the classroom but, after
25 years of active teaching and group facilitation I can't get away from
the thought that passivity starts from the front of the room - not the
back.

My brother-in-law is the concert master for one of our national symphony
orchestras. He commented the other day that there is no such thing as a
bad orchestra - it is the conductor who makes it so.

Every group has a hot button - even if it is the teacher refusing (is
that the right word?) to continue until some form of bond or contract
has been formed. I've seen facilitators sit for hours without saying a
word until the group itself took responsibility - or got up and left.
Those who left weren't meant to be there and those who stayed realised
that they were there for their own reasons not those of the teacher.

People are only passive because it is their experience that the teacher
will give them everything they need. Today none of us has either the
time or the right to do that.

Just a thought..

PHIL RUTHERFORD

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, robnphil wrote:

> People are only passive because it is their experience that the teacher
> will give them everything they need. Today none of us has either the
> time or the right to do that.

Yes! Couldn't agree more. What I find most frustrating though is that
most teachers are aware of this but feel pressured by the system to
continue using the same old teaching methods. This is the basic premise
of my first message in this thread where I referred to the accrediting
bodies on science and engineering courses who largely dictate what is
expected of the tutors.

Here at UBrighton we have a post-grad course which all new lecturers are
expected to take called 'Facilitating Teaching and Learning in HE'. In
the duscussions I've had with some of the lecturers who have done the
course, many revert back to their old teaching methods because by reducing
the amount of traditional lecturing they do to make time for more active
learning (on the students' part) they are getting into trouble with their
HoDs and peers who believe they are doing less work! Those who do put the
new teaching skills into practice are often forced to do so in a more
subversive way by, for example, being creative about defining what they do
as a 'lecture'.

Are there similar difficulties in other countries? Do science and
engineering courses need accreditation from governing bodies in the same
way that ours do?

Cheers,

Ruth.

Ruth <R.M.Crawley@BTON.AC.UK> quoted robnphil:

"People are only passive because it is their experience that the teacher
will give them everything they need. Today none of us has either the
time or the right to do that."

>>.. Yes! Couldn't agree more...<<

Could it be that some students are just more passive than their professors
want? I used to believe that employees who did not offer opinions were
constrained by fear of retribution (which may be true in some cases)
however I suspect that many passive employees are just less assertive than
others and they may assert themselves when they want to, not when others
expect or demand it.

Bob

On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Bob Gately wrote:

> Could it be that some students are just more passive than their professors
> want? I used to believe that employees who did not offer opinions were
> constrained by fear of retribution (which may be true in some cases)
> however I suspect that many passive employees are just less assertive than
> others and they may assert themselves when they want to, not when others
> expect or demand it.

Oh yes, as a personality trait some students are more/less assertive than
others and some choose to exercise their assertions as and when it serves
them best. In my previous messages, however, I am not using passive to
describe a personal characteristic but rather to describe their
involvement with their own studies. 'Passive students' in this instance
describes students who are not actively reading around their subject,
forming hypotheses and integrating the information they are being
presented with into their own understanding of the world but who are
attending lectures, tutorials etc. and generally performing the tasks they
are being set by the tutor with little autonomy of their own.

Cheers,

Ruth.