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  • 1.  Missing Element

    Posted 12-19-1997 04:24
    Dear List,

    I read the message from Fred Nickols regarding Katzenbach and
    Smith's Team Elements. Although K&S have mapped out 6 aspects, I
    am wondering what are the more particulars behind those aspects
    and how do you measure them?

    One that I am really interested in is MANAGEABLE SIZE. The average
    size team at our facility is 25 people. I have worked at other
    facilities within our company with 75 people (3 shift assembly
    lines). We also have some special project teams of 5 people.

    Way back in my early training, I had read that team size should
    never be more than 8 - 12 people. I used to have a major paradigm
    about this and it was predetermined in my mind that more would
    never work.

    After Facilitation training and times where economic factors
    prevented me from changing team size...I lost that opinion. I can
    say that I see little difference in team size....granted we aren't
    talking multitudes...but the definition above says
    manageable...what is that?

    Thanks,RC


  • 2.  Missing Element

    Posted 12-20-1997 11:53
    At 09:24 AM 12/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
    >Dear List,
    >
    >I read the message from Fred Nickols regarding Katzenbach and
    >Smith's Team Elements. Although K&S have mapped out 6 aspects, I
    >am wondering what are the more particulars behind those aspects
    >and how do you measure them?
    Good question. K&S I believe offer sufficient definition and example to
    generate measures for each. They wrote an entire book, so providing some
    idea in a short message may prove counterproductive. Anyway, a common
    approach, for example, for them includes the ground rules by which the
    people will work together. Our approach to measure this element is to take
    the organization's (this is the environment in which we apply these
    concepts) values and develop an exercise or two to determine to what extent
    the people believe in the values, are committed to the values, are willing
    to express their strengths, weaknesses, and beliefs about the values to the
    others, and publicly define how they will abide by them.


    >
    >One that I am really interested in is MANAGEABLE SIZE. The average
    >size team at our facility is 25 people. I have worked at other
    >facilities within our company with 75 people (3 shift assembly
    >lines). We also have some special project teams of 5 people.
    >
    >Way back in my early training, I had read that team size should
    >never be more than 8 - 12 people. I used to have a major paradigm
    >about this and it was predetermined in my mind that more would
    >never work.
    >
    >After Facilitation training and times where economic factors
    >prevented me from changing team size...I lost that opinion. I can
    >say that I see little difference in team size....granted we aren't
    >talking multitudes...but the definition above says
    >manageable...what is that?
    >
    >Thanks,RC
    >
    Another good question. K&S do not define any specific number or range of
    numbers either. However, by manageable they imply (or am I inferring from
    their writings) that a team can accomplish its tasks while maintaining the
    other elements. For example, an unmanageable team (no specific numbers)
    would be one where they could not hold each other accountable. This could
    be a small number (say 4 or 5) when the environment in which they are to
    work as a team makes it impossible or difficult for them to help each other
    not fail.

    I'll end with these short examples and await your comments.

    *********************************************************
    Kicab Castaneda-Mendez
    aejes, LLC
    84 Old South Salem Road
    Ridgefield, CT 06877-4841
    Tel 800-291-2974
    Fax 203-894-9020
    E-mail kicab@aejes.com
    Web Site http://www.aejes.com

    Author of:
    1. _Value-Based Cost Management for Healthcare: Linking Costs to Quality
    Delivery_
    2. _The Baldrige Assessor's Workbook: How to Perform the Examiner's Role
    for Internal and External Assessment_ (Both books available from Quality
    Resource, New York, 800-247-8519: http://www.qualityresources.com)

    aejes, LLC offers services in three areas:
    - Strategic Planning, using the balanced scorecard
    - Improving Performance, using value-based cost
    management
    - Self-Assessment, using the Baldrige Criteria.

    *********************************************************


  • 3.  Missing Element

    Posted 12-25-1997 14:49
    Richard

    My experience is that 6-12 is still a manageable size for a team - but
    it depends on what you are defining as a team? Are you talking about the
    entire workgroup (your 75 assembly line workers for example) or are you
    talking about the number that make up the sub-teams (both official and
    unofficial sub-teams)?

    If we look at, say, a sports team as an example. While no-one could
    argue that they are probably the most successful in terms of teamwork
    and achievement of unity in purpose, the team can be made up of many
    hundreds of people (thousands if one includes the fans as being part of
    the team - and no smart coach would deny that they are just as customers
    are part of an organisational team). But, these numbers are generally
    broken down into smaller teams until we get down to those who are
    actually on the field - and even then we have the 'defensive team' and
    the 'offensive team', the 'forwards' and the 'backs', all led by a
    sub-team leader (if only another team member in a better position to
    take the lead at the time).

    The military, probably one of the greatest proponents of team work and
    leadership, maintain that a 'manageable size' is no more than 10. In
    fact, in the army the person who has the greatest direct control over
    the largest number of soldiers is a section or squad leader. He/she will
    have up to 10 people under direct control (and usually with the
    assistance of a 2/IC) which is more than the Chief of Staff who has only
    about 4-5 under direct command. In business this is exactly the same -
    the further the manager is up the tree the fewer people he/she has under
    direct control - the workshop supervisor will usually have many more
    people he/she has responsibility to and for.

    While I have had up to 300 people for whom I was directly responsible I
    would never, in a million years, try to be the direct leader for them
    all. Sub-groups appear under the (sometimes very informal) leadership of
    their elected (or natural) representative, while other groups have to be
    nominated. Sub-leaders are appointed either for the duration or for
    specific tasks. All the while the magical number of 6-10 team members
    proved to be the most efficient, the most cooperative, and the most
    self-disciplined when it came to achieving team goals and objectives.
    Me? Well, I seek to motivate people at all levels while leading only
    those directly below me - and these never numbered more than 4-5. Their
    role is to support the overall motivation while leading only those below
    them and so on.

    I think much of this debate (especially that regarding the peer team
    development and review) has come about in order to seek an ideal team
    model based on an educative rather than an experiential platform. Hence
    we have such ideals as the 'flatter organisation' or self-directed
    workteams. However, in my opinion, and despite all their rhetoric, the
    proponents of a 'flatter hierarchical world' haven't yet figured out how
    to lead and motivate the enormous number of people left over once middle
    management has been destroyed. This is why (official and unofficial)
    project teams have sprung up to fill the gap left by the wiping out of
    whole layers of management.

    Like others I've noticed throughout this debate a number of references
    used to support various arguments and must say that there has been no
    talk at all about where this team and peer review/evaluation has not
    worked. For a closer look at where such processes have gone wrong one
    only needs to look at Red China and North Korea where peer selection and
    critique have been in vogue for nearly 50 years. Culturally it may work
    in these countries but can we transplant such an ideal onto our own
    culture and expect it to be as effective? Somehow I think that to try is
    to court disaster.

    Merry Xmas and peace in the New Year

    PHIL RUTHERFORD
    robnphil@ozemail.com.au


    RICHARD CORCORAN wrote:
    >
    > Dear List,
    >
    > I read the message from Fred Nickols regarding Katzenbach and
    > Smith's Team Elements. Although K&S have mapped out 6 aspects, I
    > am wondering what are the more particulars behind those aspects
    > and how do you measure them?
    >
    > One that I am really interested in is MANAGEABLE SIZE. The average
    > size team at our facility is 25 people. I have worked at other
    > facilities within our company with 75 people (3 shift assembly
    > lines). We also have some special project teams of 5 people.
    >
    > Way back in my early training, I had read that team size should
    > never be more than 8 - 12 people. I used to have a major paradigm
    > about this and it was predetermined in my mind that more would
    > never work.
    >
    > After Facilitation training and times where economic factors
    > prevented me from changing team size...I lost that opinion. I can
    > say that I see little difference in team size....granted we aren't
    > talking multitudes...but the definition above says
    > manageable...what is that?
    >
    > Thanks,RC