Discussion: View Thread

It seems to me that it's perfectly sensible, rational, and intelligent
for students (and others) to pick the method that takes the least amount
of time, especially if we are doing something we have very little
interest in. If instructors/professors/scholars want students to REALLY
get interested in research, and REALLY learn to DO research, then we
should find a way to get them interested in SOMETHING THEY WANT TO KNOW
MORE ABOUT. Then we might be able to lead them through the process.

I teach a lower level introduction to statistics course. A research
paper is required, with emphasis on a survey the student must conduct.
They pick the subject. They are all adult students in responsible jobs,
not 18-22 year-olds, yet they frequently are absolutely stumped about
what to do. Some decided (in the class I have this quarter) not to do a
survey (couldn't seem to put one together), and are willing to take a
lower grade.

If I were a student today, I would certainly want to get everything from
web sites, until I learned the limitations of web sites. The reason they
use them is -- it's quick! You can do it in the middle of the night.
Sure, it means they can postpone the assignment even longer, but isn't
that what students DO? And the library has always been a mystery to many
students. Even on an organized tour of a library, if you watch students,
they aren't paying attention. They don't seem to see the point. (I have
been making this observation for over 30 years; I don't see a significant
change.) The library just doesn't fascinate most students. It takes too
long to find things; it doesn't make sense to them. That, I believe, is
why so many students are buying their papers. They don't see the
relevance of doing those papers...relevance to their lives, to their
plans, their goals.

I don't believe current students are any less interested in their
assignments than previous generations. They just have different kinds of
pressures. Students have always resisted what they were "required" to
do. Maybe we should take a look at that?

We need to remember what we were like as students. Much of what I was
required to take was boring to me, though I was a "good" student. So I
would not put any real effort into such courses. Sure, it was my loss.
So what? Life is made up of decisions, and students can make them, too.

Edryce Reynolds





___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Great reply by Edryce! How can we teach something like incentive driven
rational behavior in class and then decry the fact that it really works. How
too can we pat ourselves on the back for the rebelliousness of our own
youth, while lamenting that of our students. Why can we not look at these
issues as would a basic customer service course - if the desired behaviors
are not present, what are we doing wrong?
______________

Randall W. Kindley The Performance Group
5215 45th Ave. S. "Building High Performance
Minneapolis MN 55417-2334 Organizations by Developing
612-721-6752 People and Processes"

kindley@dialupnet.com www.topleaders.com

.

----- Original Message -----
From: Edryce Reynolds <edryce@JUNO.COM>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 11:24 AM
Subject: Why are students not interested in research?


>It seems to me that it's perfectly sensible, rational, and intelligent
>for students (and others) to pick the method that takes the least amount
>of time, especially if we are doing something we have very little
>interest in. If instructors/professors/scholars want students to REALLY
>get interested in research, and REALLY learn to DO research, then we
>should find a way to get them interested in SOMETHING THEY WANT TO KNOW
>MORE ABOUT. Then we might be able to lead them through the process.
>
>I teach a lower level introduction to statistics course. A research
>paper is required, with emphasis on a survey the student must conduct.
>They pick the subject. They are all adult students in responsible jobs,
>not 18-22 year-olds, yet they frequently are absolutely stumped about
>what to do. Some decided (in the class I have this quarter) not to do a
>survey (couldn't seem to put one together), and are willing to take a
>lower grade.
>
>If I were a student today, I would certainly want to get everything from
>web sites, until I learned the limitations of web sites. The reason they
>use them is -- it's quick! You can do it in the middle of the night.
>Sure, it means they can postpone the assignment even longer, but isn't
>that what students DO? And the library has always been a mystery to many
>students. Even on an organized tour of a library, if you watch students,
>they aren't paying attention. They don't seem to see the point. (I have
>been making this observation for over 30 years; I don't see a significant
>change.) The library just doesn't fascinate most students. It takes too
>long to find things; it doesn't make sense to them. That, I believe, is
>why so many students are buying their papers. They don't see the
>relevance of doing those papers...relevance to their lives, to their
>plans, their goals.
>
>I don't believe current students are any less interested in their
>assignments than previous generations. They just have different kinds of
>pressures. Students have always resisted what they were "required" to
>do. Maybe we should take a look at that?
>
>We need to remember what we were like as students. Much of what I was
>required to take was boring to me, though I was a "good" student. So I
>would not put any real effort into such courses. Sure, it was my loss.
>So what? Life is made up of decisions, and students can make them, too.
>
>Edryce Reynolds
>
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Watching higher education over the last 20 years and interviewing
candidates for professional positions, I have come to the conclusion
that more than 80% of the students attending are NOT college material
and should never have been graduated from a 4 yr college. I know this
sounds harsh, but, in my humble opinion, we never will have
well-educated students until we go back to the principle of flunking out
2/3rds of the students and graduating 1/3.

"Randall W. Kindley" wrote:
>
> Great reply by Edryce! How can we teach something like incentive driven
> rational behavior in class and then decry the fact that it really works. How
> too can we pat ourselves on the back for the rebelliousness of our own
> youth, while lamenting that of our students. Why can we not look at these
> issues as would a basic customer service course - if the desired behaviors
> are not present, what are we doing wrong?
> ______________
>
> Randall W. Kindley The Performance Group
> 5215 45th Ave. S. "Building High Performance
> Minneapolis MN 55417-2334 Organizations by Developing
> 612-721-6752 People and Processes"
>
> kindley@dialupnet.com www.topleaders.com
>
> .
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Edryce Reynolds <edryce@JUNO.COM>
> To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 11:24 AM
> Subject: Why are students not interested in research?
>
> >It seems to me that it's perfectly sensible, rational, and intelligent
> >for students (and others) to pick the method that takes the least amount
> >of time, especially if we are doing something we have very little
> >interest in. If instructors/professors/scholars want students to REALLY
> >get interested in research, and REALLY learn to DO research, then we
> >should find a way to get them interested in SOMETHING THEY WANT TO KNOW
> >MORE ABOUT. Then we might be able to lead them through the process.
> >
> >I teach a lower level introduction to statistics course. A research
> >paper is required, with emphasis on a survey the student must conduct.
> >They pick the subject. They are all adult students in responsible jobs,
> >not 18-22 year-olds, yet they frequently are absolutely stumped about
> >what to do. Some decided (in the class I have this quarter) not to do a
> >survey (couldn't seem to put one together), and are willing to take a
> >lower grade.
> >
> >If I were a student today, I would certainly want to get everything from
> >web sites, until I learned the limitations of web sites. The reason they
> >use them is -- it's quick! You can do it in the middle of the night.
> >Sure, it means they can postpone the assignment even longer, but isn't
> >that what students DO? And the library has always been a mystery to many
> >students. Even on an organized tour of a library, if you watch students,
> >they aren't paying attention. They don't seem to see the point. (I have
> >been making this observation for over 30 years; I don't see a significant
> >change.) The library just doesn't fascinate most students. It takes too
> >long to find things; it doesn't make sense to them. That, I believe, is
> >why so many students are buying their papers. They don't see the
> >relevance of doing those papers...relevance to their lives, to their
> >plans, their goals.
> >
> >I don't believe current students are any less interested in their
> >assignments than previous generations. They just have different kinds of
> >pressures. Students have always resisted what they were "required" to
> >do. Maybe we should take a look at that?
> >
> >We need to remember what we were like as students. Much of what I was
> >required to take was boring to me, though I was a "good" student. So I
> >would not put any real effort into such courses. Sure, it was my loss.
> >So what? Life is made up of decisions, and students can make them, too.
> >
> >Edryce Reynolds
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________
> >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

--
Dick Montgomery, General Manager
21st Century Co-operative
Our Mission - "Help You Increase Sales"
http://www.chemmgrs.com

Colleagues,
I could not disagree more with Randall. I feel 90%
of what we "teach" at a typical university will NEVER be
used in the "real" world. Most graduates are
overqualified.
My take on statistics is also contrary to
the recent traffic. I was a practicing civil and
environmental engineer for more than a decade. I NEVER
used the four years of the required university calculus. I
probabably used statistics every week!
I have been seemingly sucessful making stats more
intersting by bringing it into our student's life. We have
students hypothesis relationships between body piercing and
major, between frequency of sex and age, between pot
smoking and major, etc. We have them develop surveys,
collect the data and run ANOVAS. I reccomend Jessica Utts'
text book and her new self-taught web site material...

Bruce

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:49:34 -0500 Richard Montgomery
<rmonty@CHEMMGRS.COM> wrote:

> Watching higher education over the last 20 years and interviewing
> candidates for professional positions, I have come to the conclusion
> that more than 80% of the students attending are NOT college material
> and should never have been graduated from a 4 yr college. I know this
> sounds harsh, but, in my humble opinion, we never will have
> well-educated students until we go back to the principle of flunking out
> 2/3rds of the students and graduating 1/3.
>
> "Randall W. Kindley" wrote:
> >
> > Great reply by Edryce! How can we teach something like incentive driven
> > rational behavior in class and then decry the fact that it really works. How
> > too can we pat ourselves on the back for the rebelliousness of our own
> > youth, while lamenting that of our students. Why can we not look at these
> > issues as would a basic customer service course - if the desired behaviors
> > are not present, what are we doing wrong?
> > ______________
> >
> > Randall W. Kindley The Performance Group
> > 5215 45th Ave. S. "Building High Performance
> > Minneapolis MN 55417-2334 Organizations by Developing
> > 612-721-6752 People and Processes"
> >
> > kindley@dialupnet.com www.topleaders.com
> >
> > .
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Edryce Reynolds <edryce@JUNO.COM>
> > To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 11:24 AM
> > Subject: Why are students not interested in research?
> >
> > >It seems to me that it's perfectly sensible, rational, and intelligent
> > >for students (and others) to pick the method that takes the least amount
> > >of time, especially if we are doing something we have very little
> > >interest in. If instructors/professors/scholars want students to REALLY
> > >get interested in research, and REALLY learn to DO research, then we
> > >should find a way to get them interested in SOMETHING THEY WANT TO KNOW
> > >MORE ABOUT. Then we might be able to lead them through the process.
> > >
> > >I teach a lower level introduction to statistics course. A research
> > >paper is required, with emphasis on a survey the student must conduct.
> > >They pick the subject. They are all adult students in responsible jobs,
> > >not 18-22 year-olds, yet they frequently are absolutely stumped about
> > >what to do. Some decided (in the class I have this quarter) not to do a
> > >survey (couldn't seem to put one together), and are willing to take a
> > >lower grade.
> > >
> > >If I were a student today, I would certainly want to get everything from
> > >web sites, until I learned the limitations of web sites. The reason they
> > >use them is -- it's quick! You can do it in the middle of the night.
> > >Sure, it means they can postpone the assignment even longer, but isn't
> > >that what students DO? And the library has always been a mystery to many
> > >students. Even on an organized tour of a library, if you watch students,
> > >they aren't paying attention. They don't seem to see the point. (I have
> > >been making this observation for over 30 years; I don't see a significant
> > >change.) The library just doesn't fascinate most students. It takes too
> > >long to find things; it doesn't make sense to them. That, I believe, is
> > >why so many students are buying their papers. They don't see the
> > >relevance of doing those papers...relevance to their lives, to their
> > >plans, their goals.
> > >
> > >I don't believe current students are any less interested in their
> > >assignments than previous generations. They just have different kinds of
> > >pressures. Students have always resisted what they were "required" to
> > >do. Maybe we should take a look at that?
> > >
> > >We need to remember what we were like as students. Much of what I was
> > >required to take was boring to me, though I was a "good" student. So I
> > >would not put any real effort into such courses. Sure, it was my loss.
> > >So what? Life is made up of decisions, and students can make them, too.
> > >
> > >Edryce Reynolds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >___________________________________________________________________
> > >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> > >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> > >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
> --
> Dick Montgomery, General Manager
> 21st Century Co-operative
> Our Mission - "Help You Increase Sales"
> http://www.chemmgrs.com

--
Bruce Clemens PhD PE
Room 360 CISAT Tower (A-1)
Mail Stop Code: 4102
College of Integrated Science and Technology
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
office: (540)568-8770
home: (540)289-7755
fax: (540)568-2768
internet: clemenbw@jmu.edu
http://www.isat.jmu.edu/faculty/clemens.htm

> I could not disagree more with Randall. I feel 90%
> of what we "teach" at a typical university will NEVER be
> used in the "real" world.

Here here!

Research... altho. it's my speciality... without
web quests it can be boring as mud.

Now students *do* like researching on the Web.

--
P.A. Gantt, Computer Science Technology Instructor
Electronic Media Design and Support Homepage
http://user.icx.net/~pgantt/
mailto:pagantt@technologist.com?Subject=etech
http://horizon.unc.edu/TS/vision/1998-11.asp
Common sense is not common, and conventional wisdom is not
wisdom. But at least you can have conventional sense. ~~ Daily Whale

Thanks for your ideas, and the text. I will look up her material. I
thoroughly agree that the best examples of statistics (or research) are
from something the students are familiar with/interested in.

Edryce

On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:34:51 -0500 "Clemens, Bruce W" <clemenbw@JMU.EDU>
writes:
>Colleagues,
> I could not disagree more with Randall. I feel 90%
>of what we "teach" at a typical university will NEVER be
>used in the "real" world. Most graduates are
>overqualified.
> My take on statistics is also contrary to
>the recent traffic. I was a practicing civil and
>environmental engineer for more than a decade. I NEVER
>used the four years of the required university calculus. I
>probabably used statistics every week!
> I have been seemingly sucessful making stats more
>intersting by bringing it into our student's life. We have
>students hypothesis relationships between body piercing and
>major, between frequency of sex and age, between pot
>smoking and major, etc. We have them develop surveys,
>collect the data and run ANOVAS. I reccomend Jessica Utts'
>text book and her new self-taught web site material...
>
>Bruce
>
>On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:49:34 -0500 Richard Montgomery
><rmonty@CHEMMGRS.COM> wrote:
>
>> Watching higher education over the last 20 years and interviewing
>> candidates for professional positions, I have come to the conclusion
>> that more than 80% of the students attending are NOT college
>material
>> and should never have been graduated from a 4 yr college. I know
>this
>> sounds harsh, but, in my humble opinion, we never will have
>> well-educated students until we go back to the principle of flunking
>out
>> 2/3rds of the students and graduating 1/3.
>>
>> "Randall W. Kindley" wrote:
>> >
>> > Great reply by Edryce! How can we teach something like incentive
>driven
>> > rational behavior in class and then decry the fact that it really
>works. How
>> > too can we pat ourselves on the back for the rebelliousness of our
>own
>> > youth, while lamenting that of our students. Why can we not look
>at these
>> > issues as would a basic customer service course - if the desired
>behaviors
>> > are not present, what are we doing wrong?
>> > ______________
>> >
>> > Randall W. Kindley The Performance Group
>> > 5215 45th Ave. S. "Building High Performance
>> > Minneapolis MN 55417-2334 Organizations by Developing
>> > 612-721-6752 People and Processes"
>> >
>> > kindley@dialupnet.com www.topleaders.com
>> >
>> > .
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Edryce Reynolds <edryce@JUNO.COM>
>> > To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
>> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 1999 11:24 AM
>> > Subject: Why are students not interested in research?
>> >
>> > >It seems to me that it's perfectly sensible, rational, and
>intelligent
>> > >for students (and others) to pick the method that takes the least
>amount
>> > >of time, especially if we are doing something we have very little
>> > >interest in. If instructors/professors/scholars want students to
>REALLY
>> > >get interested in research, and REALLY learn to DO research, then
>we
>> > >should find a way to get them interested in SOMETHING THEY WANT
>TO KNOW
>> > >MORE ABOUT. Then we might be able to lead them through the
>process.
>> > >
>> > >I teach a lower level introduction to statistics course. A
>research
>> > >paper is required, with emphasis on a survey the student must
>conduct.
>> > >They pick the subject. They are all adult students in
>responsible jobs,
>> > >not 18-22 year-olds, yet they frequently are absolutely stumped
>about
>> > >what to do. Some decided (in the class I have this quarter) not
>to do a
>> > >survey (couldn't seem to put one together), and are willing to
>take a
>> > >lower grade.
>> > >
>> > >If I were a student today, I would certainly want to get
>everything from
>> > >web sites, until I learned the limitations of web sites. The
>reason they
>> > >use them is -- it's quick! You can do it in the middle of the
>night.
>> > >Sure, it means they can postpone the assignment even longer, but
>isn't
>> > >that what students DO? And the library has always been a mystery
>to many
>> > >students. Even on an organized tour of a library, if you watch
>students,
>> > >they aren't paying attention. They don't seem to see the point.
>(I have
>> > >been making this observation for over 30 years; I don't see a
>significant
>> > >change.) The library just doesn't fascinate most students. It
>takes too
>> > >long to find things; it doesn't make sense to them. That, I
>believe, is
>> > >why so many students are buying their papers. They don't see the
>> > >relevance of doing those papers...relevance to their lives, to
>their
>> > >plans, their goals.
>> > >
>> > >I don't believe current students are any less interested in their
>> > >assignments than previous generations. They just have different
>kinds of
>> > >pressures. Students have always resisted what they were
>"required" to
>> > >do. Maybe we should take a look at that?
>> > >
>> > >We need to remember what we were like as students. Much of what
>I was
>> > >required to take was boring to me, though I was a "good" student.
> So I
>> > >would not put any real effort into such courses. Sure, it was my
>loss.
>> > >So what? Life is made up of decisions, and students can make
>them, too.
>> > >
>> > >Edryce Reynolds
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>___________________________________________________________________
>> > >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet
>e-mail.
>> > >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>> > >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>> --
>> Dick Montgomery, General Manager
>> 21st Century Co-operative
>> Our Mission - "Help You Increase Sales"
>> http://www.chemmgrs.com
>
>--
>Bruce Clemens PhD PE
>Room 360 CISAT Tower (A-1)
>Mail Stop Code: 4102
>College of Integrated Science and Technology
>James Madison University
>Harrisonburg, VA 22807
>office: (540)568-8770
>home: (540)289-7755
>fax: (540)568-2768
>internet: clemenbw@jmu.edu
>http://www.isat.jmu.edu/faculty/clemens.htm

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

I received a mechanical engineering B.S. in 1952. After two years in the
army, I went immediately to a chemical manufacturer and had to learn
both marketing and organic chemistry.

I had absolutely no problems learning and implementing these
technologies from textbooks without any formal classes. There is no
question in my mind; I got a life-long learning structure while I was in
college that made all future learning easy.

Its not WHAT you teach. You are teaching students the ability to
continue learning throughout their lives. If you are lucky, you will
succeed with 15 to 20%
Dick

"P.A. Gantt" wrote:
>
> > I could not disagree more with Randall. I feel 90%
> > of what we "teach" at a typical university will NEVER be
> > used in the "real" world.
>
> Here here!
>
> Research... altho. it's my speciality... without
> web quests it can be boring as mud.
>
> Now students *do* like researching on the Web.
>
> --
> P.A. Gantt, Computer Science Technology Instructor
> Electronic Media Design and Support Homepage
> http://user.icx.net/~pgantt/
> mailto:pagantt@technologist.com?Subject=etech
> http://horizon.unc.edu/TS/vision/1998-11.asp
> Common sense is not common, and conventional wisdom is not
> wisdom. But at least you can have conventional sense. ~~ Daily Whale

--
Dick Montgomery, General Manager
21st Century Co-operative
Our Mission - "Help You Increase Sales"
http://www.chemmgrs.com

Bruce,

>Colleagues,
> I could not disagree more with Randall. I feel 90%

I am not sure what it is you disagree with. I think your post is right on
the mark!
______________

Randall W. Kindley The Performance Group
5215 45th Ave. S. "Building High Performance
Minneapolis MN 55417-2334 Organizations by Developing
612-721-6752 People and Processes"

kindley@dialupnet.com www.topleaders.com

.

In a message dated 2/28/99 5:57:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, clemenbw@JMU.EDU
writes:

> I have been seemingly sucessful making stats more
> intersting by bringing it into our student's life. We have
> students hypothesis relationships between body piercing and
> major, between frequency of sex and age, between pot
> smoking and major, etc. We have them develop surveys,

My wife recently completed her BSN after having been an RN for 15 years.
Statistics was one of her favorite classes, though she never anticipates using
the skill, precisely because the instructor used creative topics, such as
gambling, for investigating correllations and probabilities.


Frank Bell
Technical Trainer--EAC
Checkpoint Systems, Inc.
(http://www.checkpointacpg.com)
101 Wolf Drive
Thorofare, N. J. 08086

email: frankwbell@aol.com
http://hometown.aol.com/frankwbell

Cool,
WOuld your wife consider asking her instructors to
share the neatest stuff?

THank you..

Bruce

On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:13:53 EST Frank Bell
<FRANKWBELL@AOL.COM> wrote:

> In a message dated 2/28/99 5:57:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, clemenbw@JMU.EDU
> writes:
>
> > I have been seemingly sucessful making stats more
> > intersting by bringing it into our student's life. We have
> > students hypothesis relationships between body piercing and
> > major, between frequency of sex and age, between pot
> > smoking and major, etc. We have them develop surveys,
>
> My wife recently completed her BSN after having been an RN for 15 years.
> Statistics was one of her favorite classes, though she never anticipates using
> the skill, precisely because the instructor used creative topics, such as
> gambling, for investigating correllations and probabilities.
>
>
> Frank Bell
> Technical Trainer--EAC
> Checkpoint Systems, Inc.
> (http://www.checkpointacpg.com)
> 101 Wolf Drive
> Thorofare, N. J. 08086
>
> email: frankwbell@aol.com
> http://hometown.aol.com/frankwbell

--
Bruce Clemens PhD PE
Room 360 CISAT Tower (A-1)
Mail Stop Code: 4102
College of Integrated Science and Technology
James Madison University
Harrisonburg, VA 22807
office: (540)568-8770
home: (540)289-7755
fax: (540)568-2768
internet: clemenbw@jmu.edu
http://www.isat.jmu.edu/faculty/clemens.htm

In a message dated 3/2/99 1:55:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, clemenbw@JMU.EDU
writes:

> WOuld your wife consider asking her instructors to
> share the neatest stuff?
>

It's been several years, and she's lost touch with them at this point.
However, if anyone wishes to contact Wilmington College in New Castle, Del.,
I'm sure they'd be happy to help you connect with the instructors.

Good luck!