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Harvard U. Will Make Professors Justify Their Approach to Grading
By PIPER FOGG
Chronicle of Higher Education Online
Oct 24, 01

As part of a new effort by Harvard University to monitor grade
inflation, professors will now have to justify their individual
approaches to grading. The move follows a Boston Globe report this month
that said 91 percent of Harvard's seniors graduated with honors last
spring, a much higher percentage than those at Yale and Princeton
Universities and other elite institutions.

Harvard's dean of undergraduate education, Susan G. Pedersen, said
during a faculty meeting on October 16 that she would ask faculty
members to submit written explanations of their grading policies and
practices -- a first at Harvard. According to the Globe, the university
will provide academic departments with their grading histories so
professors and teaching assistants can describe how they come up with
measures for student work. Faculty members must turn in their reports by
January.

The faculty's Education Policy Committee, consisting primarily of
administrators and faculty members, will examine the data in the spring
and consider further action, which could include recommendations to
alter grading policies.

Harvard's historical pattern of high grades, say some education
specialists, may suggest that some professors are not evaluating
students as rigorously as their peers at other top institutions are.
According to the Globe report, more than half of Harvard's grades last
year were A's and A-'s.

University officials declined to comment, but they pointed to an October
statement from Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences that said that
Harvard is "committed to providing the best possible educational
experience for its undergraduates." The policy committee began to
re-examine grading practices in the college in the spring of 2001 to
"ensure grading standards that both usefully distinguish between work of
differing quality and motivate students to work to their fullest
potential."

Disappointing, isn't it, that a person is more respected as a teacher and
grader if they fail people than they are if they pass everyone.

Surely the university should be celebrating if every/most students achieve a
HD? Rather than punish the people who teach and test the students they
should be rewarding them. After all, isn't it the aim of every teacher that
all students should learn (and demonstrate that they have learned) as much
as they can?

Talk about demotivation!

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:22 AM
Subject: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Harvard U. Will Make Professors Justify Their Approach to Grading
> By PIPER FOGG
> Chronicle of Higher Education Online
> Oct 24, 01
>
> As part of a new effort by Harvard University to monitor grade
> inflation, professors will now have to justify their

Phillip et al,

I agree with Phillip. At several colleges and
universities where I have taught there have been
strict rules about grading. At one university if a
given class average was above 3.5 (out of 4.0) we had
to have a talk with the person who was put in charge
of getting grades "under control."

This just reminds me once again of the "wrongness" of
grading in the first place.

Edryce

--- Phillip Rutherford <robnphil@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
> Disappointing, isn't it, that a person is more
> respected as a teacher and
> grader if they fail people than they are if they
> pass everyone.
>
> Surely the university should be celebrating if
> every/most students achieve a
> HD? Rather than punish the people who teach and test
> the students they
> should be rewarding them. After all, isn't it the
> aim of every teacher that
> all students should learn (and demonstrate that they
> have learned) as much
> as they can?
>
> Talk about demotivation!
>
> Phil Rutherford
>


__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Apologies for continuing this thread but I forgot to add that our university
has pretty strict rules about gradings. Each course/faculty must develop a
matrix of criteria against which the grading is carried out. For example
depth of research, clarity of expression and so on. Admittedly some of these
things can be quite subjective but they do at least give others guidelines
on how the marks were awarded thereby allowing moderators or verifiers to
track how the award was made.

The first step in the marking is for the person to be assessed against the
matrix (formative or summative) and secondly, where a grading is required,
against other students (normative assessment). The latter has fallen right
out of favour lately except in cases where a special award is being given,
eg Dr Watson's doctoral dissertation award in Criminology Studies, Lady
Chatterley's Award for undergraduate Horticultural studies etc.

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Edryce Reynolds" <edryce@yahoo.com>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Phillip et al,
>
> I agree with Phillip. At several colleges and
> universities where I have taught there have been
> strict rules about grading. At one university if a
> given class average was above 3.5 (out of 4.0) we had
> to have a talk with the person who was put in charge
> of getting grades "under control."
>
> This just reminds me once again of the "wrongness" of
> grading in the first place.
>
> Edryce
>
> --- Phillip Rutherford <robnphil@ozemail.com.au>
> wrote:
> > Disappointing, isn't it, that a person is more
> > respected as a teacher and
> > grader if they fail people than they are if they
> > pass everyone.
> >
> > Surely the university should be celebrating if
> > every/most students achieve a
> > HD? Rather than punish the people who teach and test
> > the students they
> > should be rewarding them. After all, isn't it the
> > aim of every teacher that
> > all students should learn (and demonstrate that they
> > have learned) as much
> > as they can?
> >
> > Talk about demotivation!
> >
> > Phil Rutherford
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
>

From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]

I suspect we'll get a flurry of replies expressing concerns about this
action, but quite honestly, I'm strongly in favor.

> Harvard's dean of undergraduate education, Susan G. Pedersen, said
> during a faculty meeting on October 16 that she would ask faculty
> members to submit written explanations of their grading policies and
> practices -- a first at Harvard. According to the Globe, the
> university will provide academic departments with their grading
> histories so professors and teaching assistants can describe how they
> come up with measures for student work. Faculty members must turn in
> their reports by January.

I look at Education as a process that should encourage
accountability from all parties, and set the bar for success at a
high level. I guess I missed out on being convinced of the "do your
own thing, doesn't matter what you learn" philosophy" or the notion
that higher education is just a way to get a job.

Call me a fool but, when I was teaching undergrad, I considered it
MY job to teach people that there IS a bar, and that you don't get
over it unless you achieve. Effort is great but it just isn't enough
unless we are encouraging children.

Beyond that responsibility, which I fear some professors find
distasteful, I think it's absolutely essential for elite universities to

maintain the highest perceptions of quality.

..or sink into mediocrity.

...and one way to do that is to look at professor accountability for
making students accountable.


Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com

Rober Bacal wrote:
>
> Call me a fool but, when I was teaching undergrad, I considered it
> MY job to teach people that there IS a bar, and that you don't get
> over it unless you achieve. Effort is great but it just isn't enough
> unless we are encouraging children.
>

I can't disagree with any of that, but I do find it distasteful for people
to be accused of cheating when they do what is required to get over the bar.

Phil Rutherford

I fully agree with Phil

I am disappointed that an institution that is as respected as Harvard is regressing to clearly outmoded models instead of using its prominence and intelligence to help movement to a more enlightened approach.

I believe that today's societal norms clearly indicate is time to move away from models base upon winnowing and forced distributions to models that focus upon clearly delineated and articulated standards or competencies. The former means only a limited few can reach the top rungs so are potentially excluded from certain opportunities. The latter opens the possibility of those opportunities to any student who can demonstrate needed levels of competence or proficiency.

Further, my experience with processes that generate grades is that all too often they represent less a certain level of knowledge and more the student's level of obedience, i.e. some of my colleagues tend to overly weight form over function (knowledge).

What concerns me most about the forced distribution mentality is that it causes students who are overly obsessed about grades to the detriment of interest in learning. I am sure many have observed that high achievers all too often judge value of knowledge on its relevance to a grade rather than learning and growing.

Kind wishes.

Ed
Drive On!

>>> robnphil@ozemail.com.au 10/24/01 05:47PM >>>
Disappointing, isn't it, that a person is more respected as a teacher and
grader if they fail people than they are if they pass everyone.

Surely the university should be celebrating if every/most students achieve a
HD? Rather than punish the people who teach and test the students they
should be rewarding them. After all, isn't it the aim of every teacher that
all students should learn (and demonstrate that they have learned) as much
as they can?

Talk about demotivation!

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:22 AM
Subject: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Harvard U. Will Make Professors Justify Their Approach to Grading
> By PIPER FOGG
> Chronicle of Higher Education Online
> Oct 24, 01
>
> As part of a new effort by Harvard University to monitor grade
> inflation, professors will now have to justify their

And I fully agree with Ed! I have five degrees (the
psychological significance of which is an entirely
separate issue!) and I have watched myself evolve in
my attitude toward grades over the years. At first I
would sacrifice almost anything to get a good grade,
though I can remember, even in high school, thinking,
"Gee, I wish I had time to really look into this; it
seems interesting." I went on to memorize whatever I
had to memorize for whatever test I had the next day.
But I never forgot that feeling of wanting to learn
something.

As I moved through the educational system, especially
at the doctoral level, I began to assert myself. When
asked, "If we accept you into this doctoral program,
what assurance do we have that you will complete it?"
my response was, "As long as what I am required to do
fits with my sense of what I want to learn, I will
definitely stay with it." I was accepted, in spite of
this response. I was allowed to follow my interests
(of course I was older, with quite a bit of
experience, so professors were usually delighted that
I had my own ideas) and my dissertation was a subject
of intense interest to me.

I have read quite a bit about the education process
and how learning has become so secondary. I followed
John Holt's works until his untimely death. His ideas
about learning fit my experience perfectly. I
remember his comment about seventh grade
"freewriting." They sat immobile for a long time,
then he referred to what came out of them as "three
little cubes of ice." In other words, by the seventh
grade, they had been so conditioned that they could
not even get in touch with anything they WANTED to
say!

Homeschoolers understand; "unschooling" advocates also
understand. I don't want to go that far; I want
"higher" education to get on the ball and understand
what learning is all about.

I am presently teaching in China. Chinese college
students are even more highly conditioned than U.S.
students. I am teaching management; my approach is
relaxed. Because of the language challenge, I lecture
some and then have experiential exercises (role
playing, cases, etc.) to illustrate the concepts. I
was told today by a student (who said, "Maybe I
shouldn't tell you this...but...") that because I am
not "strict" with them, they tend not to do my
assignments. (Those assignments are to look up
specific management topics on the Internet before we
deal with those topics in class.) They figure since I
will talk about it anyway, why bother to look things
up?

I am not displeased with the situation. I believe
that human beings instinctively know how they learn,
they know what they want to learn, they know WHEN they
want to learn, and they will learn exactly what they
believe is important to THEM. They will go through
the motions to do whatever it takes to get whatever
"rewards" are available, but they know those rewards
have nothing to do with learning.

Our entire system needs a good, clear analysis. What,
after all, are we trying to accomplish? What kind of
graduates do we want out there in the world? My
Chinese students know they are making choices--look up
those topics on management, or do those assignments in
accounting that will be graded. They can then come to
whatever conclusions they like. I just want them to
have an experience of being free to learn or not to
learn, without being penalized with a "bad" grade.

Edryce


--- Edward Hampton <ehampton@mail.ucf.edu> wrote:
> I fully agree with Phil
>
> I am disappointed that an institution that is as
> respected as Harvard is regressing to clearly
> outmoded models instead of using its prominence and
> intelligence to help movement to a more enlightened
> approach.
>
> I believe that today's societal norms clearly
> indicate is time to move away from models base upon
> winnowing and forced distributions to models that
> focus upon clearly delineated and articulated
> standards or competencies. The former means only a
> limited few can reach the top rungs so are
> potentially excluded from certain opportunities. The
> latter opens the possibility of those opportunities
> to any student who can demonstrate needed levels of
> competence or proficiency.
>
> Further, my experience with processes that generate
> grades is that all too often they represent less a
> certain level of knowledge and more the student's
> level of obedience, i.e. some of my colleagues tend
> to overly weight form over function (knowledge).
>
> What concerns me most about the forced distribution
> mentality is that it causes students who are overly
> obsessed about grades to the detriment of interest
> in learning. I am sure many have observed that high
> achievers all too often judge value of knowledge on
> its relevance to a grade rather than learning and
> growing.
>
> Kind wishes.
>
> Ed
> Drive On!



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]

On 25 Oct 01, at 8:25, Phillip Rutherford wrote:

> Rober Bacal wrote:
> >
> > Call me a fool but, when I was teaching undergrad, I considered it
> > MY job to teach people that there IS a bar, and that you don't get
> > over it unless you achieve. Effort is great but it just isn't enough

> > unless we are encouraging children.
> >
>
> I can't disagree with any of that, but I do find it distasteful for
> people to be accused of cheating when they do what is required to get
> over the bar.

Phil, I'm sorry but I must have lost the topic of this thread
somehow. I'm certainly not understanding where your comment
about cheating is coming from.

Did I miss some piece of this discussion?




Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com

From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]

Edward Hampton wrote:

> I believe that today's societal norms clearly indicate is time to move
> away from models base upon winnowing and forced distributions to
> models that focus upon clearly delineated and articulated standards or

> competencies. The former means only a limited few can reach the top
> rungs so are potentially excluded from certain opportunities. The
> latter opens the possibility of those opportunities to any student who

> can demonstrate needed levels of competence or proficiency.

I must have missed references to forced distributions in the Harvard
story. And also any reference to penalizing students or being
exclusionary.

Perhaps someone could point out where that was suggested?
>
> Further, my experience with processes that generate grades is that all
> too often they represent less a certain level of knowledge and more
> the student's level of obedience, i.e. some of my colleagues tend to
> overly weight form over function (knowledge).

Probably some truth to that. A thought. Some suggest that, at
least at graduate education levels, part of the task is to socialize
people in the professional norms, traditions, and ethics. If one
accepts that, then obedience (or commitment to the profession)
might have some legitimacy.

> What concerns me most about the forced distribution mentality is that
> it causes students who are overly obsessed about grades to the
> detriment of interest in learning. I am sure many have observed that
> high achievers all too often judge value of knowledge on its relevance

> to a grade rather than learning and growing.

I agree there is no justification for forced distribution. Again, I ask
where any reference to that was indicated.


Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com

The original article intimated that because 91% of Harvard's seniors
graduated with honors, there was sufficient concern about the way they were
graded to warrant those awarding these grades to hand in written
explanations as to how they did so. This, according to the article, will
result in administrators and faculty members examining the data and
considering further action, including ". . . recommendations to alter
grading policies".

To me this is saying that someone believes that the grades were fraudulently
awarded - either because of incompetence on the part of the marker (doubtful
in this case) or in order for the student/s to gain some unfair advantage -
in other words, cheating.

I agree there must be a bar, and that bar must be set at a height sufficient
for students to have to stretch themselves to reach it and cross over. But,
if they happen to cross it (which, after all, should be the aim), let us not
penalise them or the people who helped them cross the bar by putting slurs
on what they've done. This scream loud and clear that achievement isn't
going to be rewarded, it is going to be treated with suspicion.

Phil Rutherford






----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]
>
> On 25 Oct 01, at 8:25, Phillip Rutherford wrote:
>
> > Rober Bacal wrote:
> > >
> > > Call me a fool but, when I was teaching undergrad, I considered it
> > > MY job to teach people that there IS a bar, and that you don't get
> > > over it unless you achieve. Effort is great but it just isn't enough
>
> > > unless we are encouraging children.
> > >
> >
> > I can't disagree with any of that, but I do find it distasteful for
> > people to be accused of cheating when they do what is required to get
> > over the bar.
>
> Phil, I'm sorry but I must have lost the topic of this thread
> somehow. I'm certainly not understanding where your comment
> about cheating is coming from.
>
> Did I miss some piece of this discussion?
>
>
>
>
> Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com
>

From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]

And the real questions, is what everyone in the class gets over the bar.
That is the job of the teacher -- to get everyone over the bar at the
highest possible level. For example, if you have an exceptional class,
that is highly motivated, dopes the work and that high level, does that
mean that someone working at 96 percent gets a b- and the person working
at 98 percent gets an a-, and the only people getting am A are those who
earn a 100 percent. That does not make sense to me. -rr

Dear Phil,
What you say makes an immense amount of sense. It all depends, I believe, on
one's fundamental assumptions.

If I assume that my responsibility as a professor is to facilitate the
learning of all my students, then I rate myself on how well I taught by how
much they learned. So, if I work my proverbial buns off so that every
student understands as much as possible extending myself to the limit, so
that everyone does excellent and gets an A, then I rate myself as an
excellent professor.

On the other hand, if most of the students receive C's and D's, even F's,
then I assume, not that they are dumb, but that I am a poor teacher. "If the
student hasn't learned, then the teacher hasn't taught."

Under this assumption, the Harvard professors are excellent. Those who
question this, maybe need to figure out some other criteria for determining
the knowledge of the students. Until that happens, I find immense
satisfaction when, at the end of a course, the students are able to respond
appropriately to all the questions I ask, which, in my opinion, represent
excellent knowledge of the material and that I also did an excellent job. If
the students fail, then I fail as a professor.

Peace and Love,
Harry

******************************************************
Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
Baldwin-Wallace College
275 Eastland Road
Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
Office Phone: (440)826-2395
***********************************************************



-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Rutherford [mailto:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:44 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


The original article intimated that because 91% of Harvard's seniors
graduated with honors, there was sufficient concern about the way they were
graded to warrant those awarding these grades to hand in written
explanations as to how they did so. This, according to the article, will
result in administrators and faculty members examining the data and
considering further action, including ". . . recommendations to alter
grading policies".

To me this is saying that someone believes that the grades were fraudulently
awarded - either because of incompetence on the part of the marker (doubtful
in this case) or in order for the student/s to gain some unfair advantage -
in other words, cheating.

I agree there must be a bar, and that bar must be set at a height sufficient
for students to have to stretch themselves to reach it and cross over. But,
if they happen to cross it (which, after all, should be the aim), let us not
penalise them or the people who helped them cross the bar by putting slurs
on what they've done. This scream loud and clear that achievement isn't
going to be rewarded, it is going to be treated with suspicion.

Phil Rutherford






----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]
>
> On 25 Oct 01, at 8:25, Phillip Rutherford wrote:
>
> > Rober Bacal wrote:
> > >
> > > Call me a fool but, when I was teaching undergrad, I considered it
> > > MY job to teach people that there IS a bar, and that you don't get
> > > over it unless you achieve. Effort is great but it just isn't enough
>
> > > unless we are encouraging children.
> > >
> >
> > I can't disagree with any of that, but I do find it distasteful for
> > people to be accused of cheating when they do what is required to get
> > over the bar.
>
> Phil, I'm sorry but I must have lost the topic of this thread
> somehow. I'm certainly not understanding where your comment
> about cheating is coming from.
>
> Did I miss some piece of this discussion?
>
>
>
>
> Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com
>

Dear Colleagues, As usual the onging discussion about grades is interesting
because it has so many ramifications for organizational practice and to
outcomes that affect not only individuals but society. Clearly this issue
is complex and reasonable people will disagree. To frame the debate, let
me tell you about my daughter.

When Katie was a competitive swimmer, we kept extensive records on her at
meets. two types of data were recorded, but three different judgements
about her success were evaluated in terms of whether or not she had a good
meet. The two data points were her placement, eg., 1st, 2nd, 3rd; and her
time. From these two data points we made three judgements: Did she meet a
particular goal, e.g., winning the race; did she meet a particular
standard, e.g., did she achieve a "junior national time." Did she improve
on her own best personal time.

Now imbedded in these evaluations are three different reference points: A
goal, a criterion, a norm ahistorical/historical (in Katie's case an
historical self referenced, but it could be comparative historical, e.g.,
amount of improvement vis a vis others, or non historical, A>B.)

Note that much of the previous discussion implicity focuses on what the
"criteria" for accessing performance/success ought to be. When you use
criterion based and self referenced norm based, it can result in multiple
"winners." However, often, when you use comparative based criterion or
goals, some win and some lose. This, however is a function of how the goal
is stated, eg., climbing Mount Everest versus being the first to climb
Mount Everest.

Now depending upon whether the purpose of evaluation is to make some
administrative decision about a person, (e.g., who goes to the State
swimming finals), or to provide developmental feedback, different standards
might be choosen.

Added to the above, one must keep in mind, that their is always the
question of "who" sets the standard, and "when" is it set
(prospectively/retrospectively).

To a certain degree, many, if not most of us probably would choose the
standard that either protects our self image (if we are rating ourself) or
reduces potential conflict (if we have to rate others).

As a Professor, I know that in practice I use a variety of criteria for
accessing performance. None is perfect, and sometimes I wish I did not
havve to do it. However, society has given me the responsbility of
providing feedback, not only to those assessed, but to those who need and
will use that information. I think it is important that society have some
"trust" in these evaluations, thus no matter how complex the task, we need
to take it seriously, and if asked be willing to articulate the "bases" on
which we have made these evaluations. Thus, I do not find it "wrong" of
Harvard to ask their faculty to defend or articulate the bases on which
they are awarding grades. Less one think, that since they are all bright
(e.g., high GMAT scores), they all deserve As, I would compare them with my
Ph.D. students. Their GMATs are as high or higher than the typical Harvard
MBA, however, not all of them perform equally well as doctoral students nor
would I predict they will do equally well as Professors. My colleagues at
other schools seek my evaluation on these matters for hiring purposes. I
owe it to them, and to my students, to find the best "fit" for them
professionally. This requires therefore, some assessment.

I hope my long rambling on this subject, if not enlightening, at least
makes it clear why this is so important and why we are so passionate in our
points of view.

Best, As Always

Kim Boal



At 09:34 AM 10/25/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Phil,
>What you say makes an immense amount of sense. It all depends, I believe, on
>one's fundamental assumptions.
>
>If I assume that my responsibility as a professor is to facilitate the
>learning of all my students, then I rate myself on how well I taught by how
>much they learned. So, if I work my proverbial buns off so that every
>student understands as much as possible extending myself to the limit, so
>that everyone does excellent and gets an A, then I rate myself as an
>excellent professor.
>
>On the other hand, if most of the students receive C's and D's, even F's,
>then I assume, not that they are dumb, but that I am a poor teacher. "If the
>student hasn't learned, then the teacher hasn't taught."
>
>Under this assumption, the Harvard professors are excellent. Those who
>question this, maybe need to figure out some other criteria for determining
>the knowledge of the students. Until that happens, I find immense
>satisfaction when, at the end of a course, the students are able to respond
>appropriately to all the questions I ask, which, in my opinion, represent
>excellent knowledge of the material and that I also did an excellent job. If
>the students fail, then I fail as a professor.
>
>Peace and Love,
>Harry
>
>******************************************************
>Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
>Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
>Baldwin-Wallace College
>275 Eastland Road
>Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
>Office Phone: (440)826-2395
>***********************************************************
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phillip Rutherford [mailto:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:44 AM
>To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
>Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
>The original article intimated that because 91% of Harvard's seniors
>graduated with honors, there was sufficient concern about the way they were
>graded to warrant those awarding these grades to hand in written
>explanations as to how they did so. This, according to the article, will
>result in administrators and faculty members examining the data and
>considering further action, including ". . . recommendations to alter
>grading policies".
>
>To me this is saying that someone believes that the grades were fraudulently
>awarded - either because of incompetence on the part of the marker (doubtful
>in this case) or in order for the student/s to gain some unfair advantage -
>in other words, cheating.
>
>I agree there must be a bar, and that bar must be set at a height sufficient
>for students to have to stretch themselves to reach it and cross over. But,
>if they happen to cross it (which, after all, should be the aim), let us not
>penalise them or the people who helped them cross the bar by putting slurs
>on what they've done. This scream loud and clear that achievement isn't
>going to be rewarded, it is going to be treated with suspicion.
>
>Phil Rutherford
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
>To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
>> From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]
>>
>> On 25 Oct 01, at 8:25, Phillip Rutherford wrote:
>>
>> > Rober Bacal wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Call me a fool but, when I was teaching undergrad, I considered it
>> > > MY job to teach people that there IS a bar, and that you don't get
>> > > over it unless you achieve. Effort is great but it just isn't enough
>>
>> > > unless we are encouraging children.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I can't disagree with any of that, but I do find it distasteful for
>> > people to be accused of cheating when they do what is required to get
>> > over the bar.
>>
>> Phil, I'm sorry but I must have lost the topic of this thread
>> somehow. I'm certainly not understanding where your comment
>> about cheating is coming from.
>>
>> Did I miss some piece of this discussion?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com
>>
>
--------------------------------
Kim Boal
College of Business Administration
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409
(806) 742-2150
KimBoal@ttu.edu

Hmmmm....Harry makes a good, emotive point. If you are fortunate enough to
work at an exclusive university, where the highest quality students apply
and are enrolled then Harry's point is pertinent. But Harry does not take
into account the quality and number of students that most universities
admit in the pursuit of funding to support those "exceptional
teachers". Now, you could be the greatest teacher on earth, but if you
have a packed room, with a mixture of high school graduates, international
students, limited work experience students, mature age students, and so on,
you can hardly expect quality teaching to be reflected in grades. Teachers
do not have an endless reservoir of resources at their disposal to ensure
every students get over the line. We know from the Pygmalion effect that
some teachers will expend their efforts on those students most likely to
succeed. However, those teachers who believe in equity and hold the
admirable values expressed by Harry are at a distinct disadvantage, because
the hours, and commitment to their work and their students impinges upon
all aspects of their lives as they try to bring less able students to the
level of the more able ones. So in principle, the notion that a teacher is
only as good as his/her worst student, is appealing but not realistic.

Tyrone S. Pitsis
Teacher & Student

Sounds like the way managers have been doing performance appraisals.
There has been a tendency
for managers to skew their appraisals so their subordinates can receive
the "appropriate" compensation. Do others see this parallel?
Barry

Edryce Reynolds wrote:

>Phillip et al,
>
>I agree with Phillip. At several colleges and
>universities where I have taught there have been
>strict rules about grading. At one university if a
>given class average was above 3.5 (out of 4.0) we had
>to have a talk with the person who was put in charge
>of getting grades "under control."
>
>This just reminds me once again of the "wrongness" of
>grading in the first place.
>
>Edryce
>
>--- Phillip Rutherford <robnphil@ozemail.com.au>
>wrote:
>
>>Disappointing, isn't it, that a person is more
>>respected as a teacher and
>>grader if they fail people than they are if they
>>pass everyone.
>>
>>Surely the university should be celebrating if
>>every/most students achieve a
>>HD? Rather than punish the people who teach and test
>>the students they
>>should be rewarding them. After all, isn't it the
>>aim of every teacher that
>>all students should learn (and demonstrate that they
>>have learned) as much
>>as they can?
>>
>>Talk about demotivation!
>>
>>Phil Rutherford
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
>http://personals.yahoo.com
>

From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]

Barry Armandi wrote:

> Sounds like the way managers have been doing performance appraisals.
> There has been a tendency for managers to skew their appraisals so
> their subordinates can receive the "appropriate" compensation. Do
> others see this parallel? Barry

Yes. I work a lot in performance appraisal issues. Many of the
issues are exactly the same, and some companies insist on using
forced rankings for decision making. In both contexts, users
corrupt the system, for a number of similar reasons. The one you
suggest is one of them, but a few others involve not understanding
the larger goals and purposes of the process, and not being held
accountable for undertaking the process properly.

The importance of organizations making clear why these things are
done is strong.

Robert Bacal, ceo@work911.com



Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com

Harry,

Good argument to which I'd throw my whole support behind, except for one
irrefutable point: There is always going to be some students who do not have
the capacity to get a high grade or perhaps even pass. No matter how hard we
work they will just not 'get' it and with the time limitations that we all
suffer under we are just going to have to give up and say "Sorry. You just
don't make the grade."

But I'm not talking about these people. I'm talking about those who do get
good grades based on the work they and their tutors/teachers put in - but
are suspected of getting the grades because either 'the system' is wrong or
the people doing the marking made mistakes. Why can't we just accept that
people can rate highly, and just because there are more this year than last
year that doesn't take away this fact.

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Bury" <HBury@bw.edu>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Dear Phil,
> What you say makes an immense amount of sense. It all depends, I believe,
on
> one's fundamental assumptions.
>

Hi - if I may also add.

Everyone has potential in any occupational areas within the job as the
psychometric skills and metacompetences are inherent with every individual
-but self actualisation and acumen is not apparent until the individual gets
the prospect of achieving this personal effectiveness in competence.

Institutions are historically programmed in recruiting this way and can
cause barriers in employment by a hint of snobbery in the recruitment
process by not looking at the real quality behind the individual for
example;

Here in Scotland we have had various economic changes to the world of work
in that our coal mining in different geographical areas had closures
together with the Shipbuilding Industry.

Those skilled individuals were more or less made redundant overnight.
Employers overlooked the real quality aspects of those metacompetences and
instead looked at other qualities which were the wrong qualities
unfortunately of those individuals and they became totally unemployable
skilled labour.

The same applies with those individuals who live in the socio inclusion
groups.
Geographical addresses made them unemployable in the recruitment process as
employers sift through applications and ignore those who have addresses in
bad areas - therefore the quality of the individual's were not properly
assessed or given a chance if there social backgrounds had barriers to
progression in their years at school and inhibited them from the chance of
higher education.

We deliver vocational qualifications to those individuals and those who have
made it into the Business with sheer hard work and utilising their
metacompetences but some still unfortunatley don't have the qualifications
to back it up and also employers are hard to convince in developing
employees .

As we recognise that the world is ever changing in commerce and that degrees
are only valid for approximately three years (same with vocational
qualifications as the standards change to meet the current needs of the
industry ).
Graduates find it hard to find work in the ever decreasing job market and
have to work at lower paid jobs in order to have a quality of life.

The vocational qualifications are competence lead there is no grading as
equal opportunities are inherent throughout.

But we need to educate employers and become innovative in our approaches of
the new economic changes of e-commerce
and form /involve all of those partnership's within both public and private
organisations to do so to enable to meet the needs of everyone.

Regards Iris


-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds
[SMTP:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:15 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: ARTICLE EXCERPT:
FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION

Though I cannot cite the specifics, I believe
several
researchers have found no significant connection
between grades in college and "success" on the job.
If that has been accepted, then why do employers
care
about such specific grades? It seems to me that
what
employers are concerned about is the fact that a
particular student had the self-discipline to make
it
through college, showing that (s)he might be a good
employee.

Edryce

--- Ancheri Sreekumar <sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> For few years, we had our grade point average
> requirement for an overall
> pass in MBA reduced from 4 to 2 in a 10 point
scale.
>
> We then realised that the teachers started using
the
> full spectrum from 10
> to 2 when the passing grade was reduced to 2.
> Earlier, most of the teachers
> were using only the 10 to 4 range. In other words,
a
> student failing was
> considered as too costly by the teachers, while
they
> did not mind finer
> gradations as long as the student passes. (I do
not
> know whether such an
> orientation on the part of teachers is a product
of
> the culture of my
> country.)
>
> In a course, over years, if most of the students
get
> A grade, then the world
> of employers may require finer gradations within
the
> A grade for meaningful
> use of grades for selection decisions.
>
>
>
> With warm regards,
>
>
> A. Sreekumar.
> (Fellow of IIM Ahmedabad)
>
> Dean, Faculty of Management Studies and
> Coordinator, Tourism Studies Group, Goa
University,
> Goa, INDIA 403206
>
> Phone 91-832-454350/454327 (or dial 451347 and on
> hearing beep press * and
> dial 350 or 327) Res. 452769 Fax 451184
> Email sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk


__________________________________________________
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immediately of any error in transmission.

Edryce comments:

> Though I cannot cite the specifics, I believe several
> researchers have found no significant connection
> between grades in college and "success" on the job.
> If that has been accepted, then why do employers care
> about such specific grades? It seems to me that what
> employers are concerned about is the fact that a
> particular student had the self-discipline to make it
> through college, showing that (s)he might be a good
> employee.

I've always rather wondered whether this practice is essentially predicated
upon 1) a normative sense of status ("all our MBA recruits have top GPAs"),
and 2) conformity (the student jumped through the required hoops at school,
hence we think it's likely she'll do same here).

"Poor" grades tend to raise flags about the student's willingness to conform
to an established system (usually the dominant culture's values).
Capitalism depends upon a high level of willingness to conform. Whether we
approve of this thinking or not, is entirely another matter, of course.

Vik Gill

Dear Tyrone,
Thanks. Good points. But, of course, we cannot spend our tax money on
smaller classes and teachers that put their students first in their lives.
I agree Tyrone, that what you describe is the present situation, but in my
idealism, I don't think it needs to be that way.
One of the best teachers I ever had asked us to tell him what grade we
wanted for the course. We then had a very difficult paper to write that
demonstrated that we really understood the major material of the course. We
then wrote and submitted the paper. The professor read and graded the paper.
If it did not meet his expectations, he explained what we needed to do to
meet those criteria to receive the grade we said we wanted. We took his
feedback and went back to work. This process continued until we met the
criteria and his expectations, no matter how many rewrites it took. Of
course, it takes a dedicated teacher to carefully read every word every time
until the student truly understands what he needs to understand to get the
grade he wants. But, I think those results are worth every penny of our tax
dollars and I would gladly pay more taxes, if we could have small enough
classes and those kind of professors. If so, maybe students would not see
school as simply a hoop to jump through on their way to somewhere else, but
rather information, knowledge, even wisdom that is life changing. Then,
students would be studying because they find it a meaningful experience.
They would look forward to going to class.

And I think work could be that way as well. I love my work. I look forward
to meeting students and sharing my knowledge. Monday is no different from
Friday. Everyday is a joy. I can't believe that people actually pay me for
telling them what I think!

If management manages in a way that really puts the customer and the
employee first instead of the COMMAND AND CONTROL methodology we copied from
the military who treat every foot soldier as an unthinking grunt, everyone
could find meaning and fulfillment in their work (Dee Hock, the inspiration
behind VISA card, explains this very well). If we moved away from management
doing all the thinking and employees doing all the doing, to developing our
employees so that we utilize their heads and their hearts, as well as their
backs, our products and services would be of higher quality and less
cost, making us truly competitive. Most of all, since the employees would be
putting their minds and hearts into producing these quality products and
services, they would find joy and fulfillment in their work.

Call me idealistic, if you will, but this vision gives me a genuine passion
and excitement that I bring to my teaching. It makes life worth living. As
you can see, it also provides a spirit of optimism. Without this vision
towards teaching and management, I see mostly cynicism and, if not contempt,
mostly indifference towards students. If much joy is found at all, it is
found in one's individual research. I feel bad when I perceive this attitude
among my colleagues, as you expressed, dear Tyrone, because I don't believe
it has to be this way, even in State Universities and Community Colleges. To
me it's a question of our values. If we really value higher education, we
would perceive it as an honor to pay taxes to support it. Obviously, this is
my personal passionate opinion, which I appreciate having the opportunity to
share with you.

Peace and Love,
Harry

******************************************************
Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
Baldwin-Wallace College
275 Eastland Road
Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
Office Phone: (440)826-2395
***********************************************************



-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone S. Pitsis [mailto:tyrone.pitsis@uts.edu.au]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:08 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


Hmmmm....Harry makes a good, emotive point. If you are fortunate enough to
work at an exclusive university, where the highest quality students apply
and are enrolled then Harry's point is pertinent. But Harry does not take
into account the quality and number of students that most universities
admit in the pursuit of funding to support those "exceptional
teachers". Now, you could be the greatest teacher on earth, but if you
have a packed room, with a mixture of high school graduates, international
students, limited work experience students, mature age students, and so on,
you can hardly expect quality teaching to be reflected in grades. Teachers
do not have an endless reservoir of resources at their disposal to ensure
every students get over the line. We know from the Pygmalion effect that
some teachers will expend their efforts on those students most likely to
succeed. However, those teachers who believe in equity and hold the
admirable values expressed by Harry are at a distinct disadvantage, because
the hours, and commitment to their work and their students impinges upon
all aspects of their lives as they try to bring less able students to the
level of the more able ones. So in principle, the notion that a teacher is
only as good as his/her worst student, is appealing but not realistic.

Tyrone S. Pitsis
Teacher & Student

Dear Phil,
I agree with you, but in such cases I assume an effective manager would do
career counseling with an individual rather than firing him, he would work
with the employee to find the area where he can excel. Maybe he can't
understand programming, but because of his personality, he might very well
make an excellent sales person.

Similarly, if I take personal interest in my students, maybe the person that
just doesn't "get" it, doesn't "get" it because math is not his subject.
Maybe, he was born to be a writer. My guess is God created lots of Mozarts
and Van Goghs in Africa over the centuries, but not having a piano or the
tradition of other impressionists they never developed. In other words, if
we teachers could just provide the environment, I think many seeds would
grow into, if not gorgeous orchids, then beautiful dandelions.

Peace and Love,
Harry

******************************************************
Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
Baldwin-Wallace College
275 Eastland Road
Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
Office Phone: (440)826-2395
***********************************************************



-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Rutherford [mailto:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:44 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


Harry,

Good argument to which I'd throw my whole support behind, except for one
irrefutable point: There is always going to be some students who do not have
the capacity to get a high grade or perhaps even pass. No matter how hard we
work they will just not 'get' it and with the time limitations that we all
suffer under we are just going to have to give up and say "Sorry. You just
don't make the grade."

But I'm not talking about these people. I'm talking about those who do get
good grades based on the work they and their tutors/teachers put in - but
are suspected of getting the grades because either 'the system' is wrong or
the people doing the marking made mistakes. Why can't we just accept that
people can rate highly, and just because there are more this year than last
year that doesn't take away this fact.

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Bury" <HBury@bw.edu>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Dear Phil,
> What you say makes an immense amount of sense. It all depends, I believe,
on
> one's fundamental assumptions.
>

Good Morning,

I have been working on a new taxomony for knowledge management and
knowledge usage in decision making. I have been exploring how to do a
transdiscipline approach on theories from the biological, information
science, educational, decision sciences and supporting it with some
mathematical modeling and computational databases.

Im now at the stage where I can even survey groups or individuals and plot
there knowledge usage in decision making, and classify it by the taxomony
and other descriptive variables. So i can now compare an individual
knowledge maps against another individual or group.

But where I am lost is how to apply this to the teaching world. DO i need
to case study, publish, test, or what other options are there ?

Warm Regards
Tony Nolan OAM
Uni of Tech - Sydney

Dear colleagues,

For few years, we had our grade point average requirement for an overall
pass in MBA reduced from 4 to 2 in a 10 point scale.

We then realised that the teachers started using the full spectrum from 10
to 2 when the passing grade was reduced to 2. Earlier, most of the teachers
were using only the 10 to 4 range. In other words, a student failing was
considered as too costly by the teachers, while they did not mind finer
gradations as long as the student passes. (I do not know whether such an
orientation on the part of teachers is a product of the culture of my
country.)

In a course, over years, if most of the students get A grade, then the world
of employers may require finer gradations within the A grade for meaningful
use of grades for selection decisions.



With warm regards,


A. Sreekumar.
(Fellow of IIM Ahmedabad)

Dean, Faculty of Management Studies and
Coordinator, Tourism Studies Group, Goa University, Goa, INDIA 403206

Phone 91-832-454350/454327 (or dial 451347 and on hearing beep press * and
dial 350 or 327) Res. 452769 Fax 451184
Email sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Bury <HBury@bw.edu>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:34 AM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Dear Phil,
> What you say makes an immense amount of sense. It all depends, I believe,
on
> one's fundamental assumptions.
>
> If I assume that my responsibility as a professor is to facilitate the
> learning of all my students, then I rate myself on how well I taught by
how
> much they learned. So, if I work my proverbial buns off so that every
> student understands as much as possible extending myself to the limit, so
> that everyone does excellent and gets an A, then I rate myself as an
> excellent professor.
>
> On the other hand, if most of the students receive C's and D's, even F's,
> then I assume, not that they are dumb, but that I am a poor teacher. "If
the
> student hasn't learned, then the teacher hasn't taught."
>
> Under this assumption, the Harvard professors are excellent. Those who
> question this, maybe need to figure out some other criteria for
determining
> the knowledge of the students. Until that happens, I find immense
> satisfaction when, at the end of a course, the students are able to
respond
> appropriately to all the questions I ask, which, in my opinion, represent
> excellent knowledge of the material and that I also did an excellent job.
If
> the students fail, then I fail as a professor.
>
> Peace and Love,
> Harry
>
> ******************************************************
> Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
> Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
> Baldwin-Wallace College
> 275 Eastland Road
> Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
> Office Phone: (440)826-2395
> ***********************************************************
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillip Rutherford [mailto:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:44 AM
> To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
> Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
> The original article intimated that because 91% of Harvard's seniors
> graduated with honors, there was sufficient concern about the way they
were
> graded to warrant those awarding these grades to hand in written
> explanations as to how they did so. This, according to the article, will
> result in administrators and faculty members examining the data and
> considering further action, including ". . . recommendations to alter
> grading policies".
>
> To me this is saying that someone believes that the grades were
fraudulently
> awarded - either because of incompetence on the part of the marker
(doubtful
> in this case) or in order for the student/s to gain some unfair
advantage -
> in other words, cheating.
>
> I agree there must be a bar, and that bar must be set at a height
sufficient
> for students to have to stretch themselves to reach it and cross over.
But,
> if they happen to cross it (which, after all, should be the aim), let us
not
> penalise them or the people who helped them cross the bar by putting slurs
> on what they've done. This scream loud and clear that achievement isn't
> going to be rewarded, it is going to be treated with suspicion.
>
> Phil Rutherford
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
> To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
> > From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]
> >
> > On 25 Oct 01, at 8:25, Phillip Rutherford wrote:
> >
> > > Rober Bacal wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Call me a fool but, when I was teaching undergrad, I considered it
> > > > MY job to teach people that there IS a bar, and that you don't get
> > > > over it unless you achieve. Effort is great but it just isn't enough
> >
> > > > unless we are encouraging children.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I can't disagree with any of that, but I do find it distasteful for
> > > people to be accused of cheating when they do what is required to get
> > > over the bar.
> >
> > Phil, I'm sorry but I must have lost the topic of this thread
> > somehow. I'm certainly not understanding where your comment
> > about cheating is coming from.
> >
> > Did I miss some piece of this discussion?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com
> >


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Though I cannot cite the specifics, I believe several
researchers have found no significant connection
between grades in college and "success" on the job.
If that has been accepted, then why do employers care
about such specific grades? It seems to me that what
employers are concerned about is the fact that a
particular student had the self-discipline to make it
through college, showing that (s)he might be a good
employee.

Edryce

--- Ancheri Sreekumar <sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> For few years, we had our grade point average
> requirement for an overall
> pass in MBA reduced from 4 to 2 in a 10 point scale.
>
> We then realised that the teachers started using the
> full spectrum from 10
> to 2 when the passing grade was reduced to 2.
> Earlier, most of the teachers
> were using only the 10 to 4 range. In other words, a
> student failing was
> considered as too costly by the teachers, while they
> did not mind finer
> gradations as long as the student passes. (I do not
> know whether such an
> orientation on the part of teachers is a product of
> the culture of my
> country.)
>
> In a course, over years, if most of the students get
> A grade, then the world
> of employers may require finer gradations within the
> A grade for meaningful
> use of grades for selection decisions.
>
>
>
> With warm regards,
>
>
> A. Sreekumar.
> (Fellow of IIM Ahmedabad)
>
> Dean, Faculty of Management Studies and
> Coordinator, Tourism Studies Group, Goa University,
> Goa, INDIA 403206
>
> Phone 91-832-454350/454327 (or dial 451347 and on
> hearing beep press * and
> dial 350 or 327) Res. 452769 Fax 451184
> Email sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Dear Colleagues, I think Edryce is partially correct. Grades and where you
went to school clearly influence a person's first job placement and salary.
However, after 5 years on the job, grades account for approximately 2% of
the varaince in salaries.

I always tell my students, that ultimately, job performance swamps
credentials.

Kim Boal


At 01:14 AM 10/26/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Though I cannot cite the specifics, I believe several
>researchers have found no significant connection
>between grades in college and "success" on the job.
>If that has been accepted, then why do employers care
>about such specific grades? It seems to me that what
>employers are concerned about is the fact that a
>particular student had the self-discipline to make it
>through college, showing that (s)he might be a good
>employee.
>
>Edryce
>
>--- Ancheri Sreekumar <sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> For few years, we had our grade point average
>> requirement for an overall
>> pass in MBA reduced from 4 to 2 in a 10 point scale.
>>
>> We then realised that the teachers started using the
>> full spectrum from 10
>> to 2 when the passing grade was reduced to 2.
>> Earlier, most of the teachers
>> were using only the 10 to 4 range. In other words, a
>> student failing was
>> considered as too costly by the teachers, while they
>> did not mind finer
>> gradations as long as the student passes. (I do not
>> know whether such an
>> orientation on the part of teachers is a product of
>> the culture of my
>> country.)
>>
>> In a course, over years, if most of the students get
>> A grade, then the world
>> of employers may require finer gradations within the
>> A grade for meaningful
>> use of grades for selection decisions.
>>
>>
>>
>> With warm regards,
>>
>>
>> A. Sreekumar.
>> (Fellow of IIM Ahmedabad)
>>
>> Dean, Faculty of Management Studies and
>> Coordinator, Tourism Studies Group, Goa University,
>> Goa, INDIA 403206
>>
>> Phone 91-832-454350/454327 (or dial 451347 and on
>> hearing beep press * and
>> dial 350 or 327) Res. 452769 Fax 451184
>> Email sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
>http://personals.yahoo.com
>
--------------------------------
Kim Boal
College of Business Administration
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409
(806) 742-2150
KimBoal@ttu.edu

From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]

On 26 Oct 01, at 1:14, Edryce Reynolds wrote:

> Though I cannot cite the specifics, I believe several researchers have

> found no significant connection between grades in college and
> "success" on the job. If that has been accepted, then why do employers

> care about such specific grades? It seems to me that what
> employers are concerned about is the fact that a
> particular student had the self-discipline to make it
> through college, showing that (s)he might be a good
> employee.

If there is such research, it would have to be almost longitudinal to
be of any use. Given the range of factors involved in success, I
wouldn't expect grades to be good predictors unless you looked at
success over and 5-15 year period.

Robert Bacal, ceo@work911.com


Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com

Harry,

Wonderful response, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly. Context,
environment, support, and a whole bunch of other things can help to bring
out the swan from the ugly duckling. Unfortunately, we weren't talking about
the job context but the education context - one in which we as teachers have
only got finite resources (including time and patience) to be used within a
very strict context.

I agree with your points and am myself very active in this area. But, it is
a shame that not everyone can be.

Phil


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Bury" <HBury@bw.edu>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Dear Phil,
> I agree with you, but in such cases I assume an effective manager would do
> career counseling with an individual rather than firing him, he would work
> with the employee to find the area where he can excel. Maybe he can't
> understand programming, but because of his personality, he might very well
> make an excellent sales person.
>
> Similarly, if I take personal interest in my students, maybe the person
that
> just doesn't "get" it, doesn't "get" it because math is not his subject.
> Maybe, he was born to be a writer. My guess is God created lots of Mozarts
> and Van Goghs in Africa over the centuries, but not having a piano or the
> tradition of other impressionists they never developed. In other words, if
> we teachers could just provide the environment, I think many seeds would
> grow into, if not gorgeous orchids, then beautiful dandelions.
>
> Peace and Love,
> Harry
>
> ******************************************************
> Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
> Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
> Baldwin-Wallace College
> 275 Eastland Road
> Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
> Office Phone: (440)826-2395
> ***********************************************************
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillip Rutherford [mailto:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:44 PM
> To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
> Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
> Harry,
>
> Good argument to which I'd throw my whole support behind, except for one
> irrefutable point: There is always going to be some students who do not
have
> the capacity to get a high grade or perhaps even pass. No matter how hard
we
> work they will just not 'get' it and with the time limitations that we all
> suffer under we are just going to have to give up and say "Sorry. You just
> don't make the grade."
>
> But I'm not talking about these people. I'm talking about those who do get
> good grades based on the work they and their tutors/teachers put in - but
> are suspected of getting the grades because either 'the system' is wrong
or
> the people doing the marking made mistakes. Why can't we just accept that
> people can rate highly, and just because there are more this year than
last
> year that doesn't take away this fact.
>
> Phil Rutherford
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harry Bury" <HBury@bw.edu>
> To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
> > Dear Phil,
> > What you say makes an immense amount of sense. It all depends, I
believe,
> on
> > one's fundamental assumptions.
> >

I started following this debate pretty late so if I say anything out of line
or repeating stuff, apologies. But it seems to me the grade inflation has to
do with our own crisis inside the institutions. Many institutions such as
Harvard have resorted to investigation of grade inflation (as reports say).
Incidentally, there was a study three or four years ago in JAP on grades
and success but I think it pertained more to the academic profession.
Turning to grade inflation, We do have a very serious problem. Here is my
two cents worth.
At least from the macro perspective, it has to do with what I call
"insitutitonal proliferation" and the "struggle for survival." Restricting
ourselves to Business Schools at this point, all of us promise to make
managers of these students ( we may not explicitly say so but our program
campaigns and the fact that we admit them) and that we think they are
capable of becoming managers. That is hypocrisy point number 1. In the first
instance, we do not make managers. We only signal to companies to that this
person is ready to take some responsibility and may be trained to be a
"real" manager. So the gap between what we implicitly promise and what we
deliver. To bridge that gap, we design hands-on courses which in turn create
measurement problems (may not be true in all cases, but does happen
frequently), and so grade inflation.

Second, We refuse to recognize that much of the time it is the student who
makes the institution glow in the future. Take the Indian Institutes of
Technology or Indian Institutes of Management which have received a bit of
publicity in the US in recent years. Nothing earth shattering by way of
scholarship goes on there. It is just that the inputs are so strong that
they are capable of transforming themselves into useful outputs, inspite of
an average or just-above-average transformation process. My point: Too many
business schools, too many admitted to business schools, and we need to put
them through the pipeline for our own survival.

A thousand institutions competing for a few thousand applicants and
desperate to launch a few thousand potential managers. Combine this with the
pressure educational institutions have experienced to operate more
efficiently. Of course, some administrators have taken that to heart, and
running the place like profit centres. So, we go against our better
judgement and go for the false egalitarian ethos that anyone can be a
manager (knowing fully well that certain qualities are cultivated and well
developed by the time one reaches the age of 25), and run our programs. Of
course, grade inflation will result. If we have a group of average and
below-average students, some average students will come out with excellent
grades. Of course, institutional reputation acts as an index to judge that
grade's worth. But institutions might be better off by making sure that no
average student ever gets an A even if this means no one comes out of the
program with flying colors. But will that happen? Not likely. Because, under
this policy, neither the average nor the above-average/ brilliant student
will apply to the school and the school faces bankruptcy. And we fight these
selection pressures by continued admissions to one and all.

Third, we are collectively involved in this enterprise. If we talk about it
honestly, we are all (or most of us) dead. If we do not talk about it, we
bitch about grade inflation and related problems but go back to what we are
doing anyway.
Cynical? I do not know. May be someone can provide a counter-point to
reduce this cynicism.
Like I said, my two cents (or less). Rgds, Rao Kowtha

Dear Phil,
I agree. Keep up your good work. Discouragement is our greatest enemy.

Peace and Love,
Harry

******************************************************
Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
Baldwin-Wallace College
275 Eastland Road
Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
Office Phone: (440)826-2395
***********************************************************



-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Rutherford [mailto:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:22 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


Harry,

Wonderful response, and one that I agree with wholeheartedly. Context,
environment, support, and a whole bunch of other things can help to bring
out the swan from the ugly duckling. Unfortunately, we weren't talking about
the job context but the education context - one in which we as teachers have
only got finite resources (including time and patience) to be used within a
very strict context.

I agree with your points and am myself very active in this area. But, it is
a shame that not everyone can be.

Phil


----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Bury" <HBury@bw.edu>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Dear Phil,
> I agree with you, but in such cases I assume an effective manager would do
> career counseling with an individual rather than firing him, he would work
> with the employee to find the area where he can excel. Maybe he can't
> understand programming, but because of his personality, he might very well
> make an excellent sales person.
>
> Similarly, if I take personal interest in my students, maybe the person
that
> just doesn't "get" it, doesn't "get" it because math is not his subject.
> Maybe, he was born to be a writer. My guess is God created lots of Mozarts
> and Van Goghs in Africa over the centuries, but not having a piano or the
> tradition of other impressionists they never developed. In other words, if
> we teachers could just provide the environment, I think many seeds would
> grow into, if not gorgeous orchids, then beautiful dandelions.
>
> Peace and Love,
> Harry
>
> ******************************************************
> Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
> Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
> Baldwin-Wallace College
> 275 Eastland Road
> Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
> Office Phone: (440)826-2395
> ***********************************************************
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillip Rutherford [mailto:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:44 PM
> To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
> Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
> Harry,
>
> Good argument to which I'd throw my whole support behind, except for one
> irrefutable point: There is always going to be some students who do not
have
> the capacity to get a high grade or perhaps even pass. No matter how hard
we
> work they will just not 'get' it and with the time limitations that we all
> suffer under we are just going to have to give up and say "Sorry. You just
> don't make the grade."
>
> But I'm not talking about these people. I'm talking about those who do get
> good grades based on the work they and their tutors/teachers put in - but
> are suspected of getting the grades because either 'the system' is wrong
or
> the people doing the marking made mistakes. Why can't we just accept that
> people can rate highly, and just because there are more this year than
last
> year that doesn't take away this fact.
>
> Phil Rutherford
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harry Bury" <HBury@bw.edu>
> To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
>
>
> > Dear Phil,
> > What you say makes an immense amount of sense. It all depends, I
believe,
> on
> > one's fundamental assumptions.
> >

Rao Kowtha makes a lot of sense with what he says and rather than give him
his counter-argument I'd like to make a suggestion as to why his points come
crashing so loudly home.

Having only been involved at the under- and post-graduate level for five
years with twenty odd years at vocational level before that, I'm not privvy
to what goes on in every higher education institution. But, from my
experience having working with universities and business colleges here and
overseas for the past 10-12 years I can state that many of them are
responsible for their own difficulties because of the incessant belief that
what employers want out of graduates is a qualification. This belief is
reinforced by the fact that most HE/FE institutions spend a great deal of
their time advertising the quality of their faculties and qualifications and
nothing else.

We have a very dumb car add out here. It pushes the 'Zoom Zoom' appeal but
says nothing about the car itself. I can't even remember what kind of car it
is beyond that fact that it 'Zoom Zooms'. Many universities and institutes
of further education do the same thing. The advertising would have us
believe that all business students should strive for an MBA, and an MBA
from, say Harvard or Kellog, is better than one from the University of
Vanuatu. Well, I'm sorry to say this isn't true for the people of Vanuatu
where while their university is the best one for them, an MBA isn't in
particular high demand. In fact a report not long ago stated that the
majority of MBAs in Australia go to the public service on graduation, and a
similar one not long ago in the US stated that most MBAs go to high paying
consultancy firms. Why aren't they being paid top dollar in private
enterprise? Because most employers don't want qualifications - they want
people who can do the job.

Sure, some employers will say that they want qualified people, but there are
so many qualified people out there that a qualification is usually used to
short-list applicants, not give any one the job. When two hundred
applications come in the person sorting them (not usually anyone involved in
the final interview or deliberation either) needs something to sort out who
goes on to the next stage and who doesn't. And it doesn't matter how highly
qualified the final group are, if they don't relate to the interviewer/s or
don't appear to be able to grasp the company dream then they're out the
door.

The only way we, the educators, can hope to put our institution ahead of the
pack is to stop telling the world what we are going to give (except, of
course, in the areas of high research and architecture), and start listening
to what employers want.

A few years ago I was asked to facilitate the solution to a problem a small
town in the centre of England was facing. The problem was one of high
unemployment amongst school leavers, despite the plethora of jobs available.
My solution? I brought the local townspeople into the school and had them
work with the teachers to develop a curriculum that integrated the last two
years (I preferred three but two was all I could get) of school with the
first few years of work life. This wasn't based on any fancy education
program (such as in England, the GNVQs, or in Australia the Key
Competencies), it was based on common sense and mutual understandings. And
while I didn't see any more of this program beyond its first year it
appeared to be on track for solving one of the worst problems most
communities have in the world today.

I am continuing to run a similar program at higher education level in one
particular profession and after four years have had a 100% success rate with
job placement - at times even higher (ie, people have gone in for one job
and ended up getting a better one).

Why can't we, with all our collective common sense and perceived education,
do the same within our communities? Get rid of this outdated notion that
communities, employers and the nation as a whole are going to be satisfied
with what we are prepared to give them ("They can have any colour as long as
it is black!") and start looking more closely at what they want. Then, and
only then, will we find out how much regard is given to the courses we run
and the students we turn out, and no more will we need to worry about
inflating or deflating our grades - grades won't matter a toss.

Phil Rutherford

Well said, Phil! Maybe we should devote some time to
answering your question - why don't we do something to
solve this problem?

Edryce

--- Phillip Rutherford <robnphil@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
> Rao Kowtha makes a lot of sense with what he says
> and rather than give him
> his counter-argument I'd like to make a suggestion
> as to why his points come
> crashing so loudly home.
>
> Having only been involved at the under- and
> post-graduate level for five
> years with twenty odd years at vocational level
> before that, I'm not privvy
> to what goes on in every higher education
> institution. But, from my
> experience having working with universities and
> business colleges here and
> overseas for the past 10-12 years I can state that
> many of them are
> responsible for their own difficulties because of
> the incessant belief that
> what employers want out of graduates is a
> qualification. This belief is
> reinforced by the fact that most HE/FE institutions
> spend a great deal of
> their time advertising the quality of their
> faculties and qualifications and
> nothing else.
>
> We have a very dumb car add out here. It pushes the
> 'Zoom Zoom' appeal but
> says nothing about the car itself. I can't even
> remember what kind of car it
> is beyond that fact that it 'Zoom Zooms'. Many
> universities and institutes
> of further education do the same thing. The
> advertising would have us
> believe that all business students should strive for
> an MBA, and an MBA
> from, say Harvard or Kellog, is better than one from
> the University of
> Vanuatu. Well, I'm sorry to say this isn't true for
> the people of Vanuatu
> where while their university is the best one for
> them, an MBA isn't in
> particular high demand. In fact a report not long
> ago stated that the
> majority of MBAs in Australia go to the public
> service on graduation, and a
> similar one not long ago in the US stated that most
> MBAs go to high paying
> consultancy firms. Why aren't they being paid top
> dollar in private
> enterprise? Because most employers don't want
> qualifications - they want
> people who can do the job.
>
> Sure, some employers will say that they want
> qualified people, but there are
> so many qualified people out there that a
> qualification is usually used to
> short-list applicants, not give any one the job.
> When two hundred
> applications come in the person sorting them (not
> usually anyone involved in
> the final interview or deliberation either) needs
> something to sort out who
> goes on to the next stage and who doesn't. And it
> doesn't matter how highly
> qualified the final group are, if they don't relate
> to the interviewer/s or
> don't appear to be able to grasp the company dream
> then they're out the
> door.
>
> The only way we, the educators, can hope to put our
> institution ahead of the
> pack is to stop telling the world what we are going
> to give (except, of
> course, in the areas of high research and
> architecture), and start listening
> to what employers want.
>
> A few years ago I was asked to facilitate the
> solution to a problem a small
> town in the centre of England was facing. The
> problem was one of high
> unemployment amongst school leavers, despite the
> plethora of jobs available.
> My solution? I brought the local townspeople into
> the school and had them
> work with the teachers to develop a curriculum that
> integrated the last two
> years (I preferred three but two was all I could
> get) of school with the
> first few years of work life. This wasn't based on
> any fancy education
> program (such as in England, the GNVQs, or in
> Australia the Key
> Competencies), it was based on common sense and
> mutual understandings. And
> while I didn't see any more of this program beyond
> its first year it
> appeared to be on track for solving one of the worst
> problems most
> communities have in the world today.
>
> I am continuing to run a similar program at higher
> education level in one
> particular profession and after four years have had
> a 100% success rate with
> job placement - at times even higher (ie, people
> have gone in for one job
> and ended up getting a better one).
>
> Why can't we, with all our collective common sense
> and perceived education,
> do the same within our communities? Get rid of this
> outdated notion that
> communities, employers and the nation as a whole are
> going to be satisfied
> with what we are prepared to give them ("They can
> have any colour as long as
> it is black!") and start looking more closely at
> what they want. Then, and
> only then, will we find out how much regard is given
> to the courses we run
> and the students we turn out, and no more will we
> need to worry about
> inflating or deflating our grades - grades won't
> matter a toss.
>
> Phil Rutherford


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Colleagues:

Phil Rutherford stated:

"The only way we, the educators, can hope to put our institution ahead of the
pack is to stop telling the world what we are going to give (except, of
course, in the areas of high research and architecture), and start listening
to what employers want."

Phil is, of course, correct. And if you are interested in meeting the wants
and needs of your customers in your curriculums, you might find the following
references useful:


Bier, Ian, and Robert Cornesky (2000). Using QualityFunction Deployment to
Construct an Oriental Medicine Curriculum that Meets theNeeds of Our
Customers. Quality Progress, April 2001.

and

Cornesky, Robert. "Using Quality Function Deployment to Build Curriculums
that Meet the Needs of Your Customers."; Paper to presented at the Annual
International Meeting of the American Society for Quality, Scottsdale,
Arizona, September 11-13, 2000.

Employers -
When recruiting have in the criterion of the
person specification and at the selection processes go into the area in an
aggressive way - as to cream of the best which they think - enables them to
produce their services and products and be profitable in running the parts
of the organisation.
Grading can not be assessed on entry to
employment.
Individuals learn by R.O.T.E ( repetition
/good memory) Individuals have experimental learning (by looking at the past
in case studies but not the present where economics are chaining in a daily
basis).
After a while all individuals including
those who don't have grades - once settled into the organisation can run
with analytical skills which we all have inherited in our brains - and is
awakened in the problem solving on a daily basis. Or trained or educated
from a very early age if given the opportunities to do so.
How often have you heard of different groups in all
occupational sectors
who have become entrepreneurs - who have had no
education at all but
make it in the world of business and become
successful in their own
right but no one questions their grades
Regards Iris



-----Original Message-----
From:
Charles Wankel
[SMTP:cxx@bellatlantic.net]
<mailto:[SMTP:cxx@bellatlantic.net]>
Sent:
Friday, October 26, 2001 6:44 PM
To:
MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU <mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Subject:
Re: ARTICLE EXCERPT:
FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION
From: Robert Bacal
[mailto:ceo@work911.com] <mailto:[mailto:ceo@work911.com]>

On 26 Oct 01, at 1:14, Edryce Reynolds
wrote:
> Though I cannot cite the
specifics, I believe
several researchers have
> found no significant
connection between grades
in
college and
> "success" on the job. If
that has been
accepted,
then why do employers

> care about such specific
grades? It seems to
me
that what
> employers are concerned
about is the fact that
a
> particular student had the
self-discipline to
make
it
> through college, showing
that (s)he might be a
good
> employee.

If there is such research, it would have to
be
almost longitudinal to
be of any use. Given the range of factors
involved
in success, I
wouldn't expect grades to be good predictors
unless
you looked at
success over and 5-15 year period.
Robert Bacal, ceo@work911.com
<mailto:ceo@work911.com>

Over 1200 work-related articles online at
http://www.articles911.com
<http://www.articles911.com>


________________________________________________________________________
Scottish Enterprise Network
http://www.scottish-enterprise.com
<http://www.scottish-enterprise.com>

Headquarters Address & Contact Numbers
150 Broomielaw
5 Atlantic Quay
Glasgow
G2 8LU.
Tel: +44 (0) 141 248 2700.
Fax: +44 (0)141 221 3217

This message is sent in confidence for the
addressee only. It may contain legally privileged information. The contents
are not to be disclosed to anyone other than the addressee. Unauthorised
recipients are requested to preserve this confidentiality and to advise the
sender immediately of any error in transmission.


________________________________________________________________________
Scottish Enterprise Network
http://www.scottish-enterprise.com

Headquarters Address & Contact Numbers

150 Broomielaw
5 Atlantic Quay
Glasgow
G2 8LU.
Tel: +44 (0) 141 248 2700.
Fax: +44 (0)141 221 3217

This message is sent in confidence for the addressee only.
It may contain legally privileged information. The contents are not to
be disclosed to anyone other than the addressee. Unauthorised recipients
are requested to preserve this confidentiality and to advise the sender
immediately of any error in transmission.

Iris - The sound you hear is my thunderous applause!
YES! When people get to the workplace, they show what
they can do, and often they are more motivated than
they were in school. This is a "duh" as far as I am
concerned. All the hooplah about grades is just
blowing in the wind, because when people work for
grades they are not "themselves."

Of course, when they begin work they may be motivated
by money, and that can take the place of grades in
their lives. Only if they experience what it's like
to really WANT to work do they show what they are
really made of.

Edryce

Edryce

--- "Iris Robertson, E, SE Glasgow"
<Iris.Robertson@scotent.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Employers -
> When recruiting have in the criterion of the
> person specification and at the selection processes
> go into the area in an
> aggressive way - as to cream of the best which they
> think - enables them to
> produce their services and products and be
> profitable in running the parts
> of the organisation.
> Grading can not be assessed on entry to
> employment.
> Individuals learn by R.O.T.E ( repetition
> /good memory) Individuals have experimental learning
> (by looking at the past
> in case studies but not the present where economics
> are chaining in a daily
> basis).
> After a while all individuals including
> those who don't have grades - once settled into the
> organisation can run
> with analytical skills which we all have inherited
> in our brains - and is
> awakened in the problem solving on a daily basis. Or
> trained or educated
> from a very early age if given the opportunities to
> do so.
> How often have you heard of different groups in
> all
> occupational sectors
> who have become entrepreneurs - who have had no
> education at all but
> make it in the world of business and become
> successful in their own
> right but no one questions their grades
> Regards Iris
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Charles Wankel
>


__________________________________________________
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: How do we handle students who don't want to march at all.

In Training and development of individuals be it in Higher Education or in a
Vocational Qualification environment.

All of these behaviours and attitudes are inherent in all humans this
cognitive thinking and practical behaviour unfortunatley makes us
individuals in our own right in order to change we must be made aware of
this lack of skill

Why do we wait to the summative assessment using a goal free humanistic
approach where the individual thinks he /she is right in doing
Without continuous feedback on the whole progression of all activities and
outputs.

Why not utilise the following;

In the full programme - that will take into account those behaviours and
attitudes and recorded and signed by both parties on a continuous review
together with guidance and support on a individual basis utilising the
qualitative humanistic model and the quantitative humanistic model on a
formative basis set against a criterion referenced assessment

On exit Summative on
achievement of modular
Approaches or full
programme activities
Pre entry
Action Planning all with time scales of achievement of all the standards

On entry

Induction

Guidance and support thoughout the cycle
Continual Formative feedback
Review
Review










Review

This will aid the behaviour and attitude changes on review of progress and
help the process and progression of achievement of certification and have a
historical evidence of progression and track the time constraints
etc.riginal Message-----
From: John Orr [SMTP:johno@cameron.edu]
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 11:18 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: ARTICLE EXCERPT:
FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION

Date sent: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:24:09
-0400
From: Vik Gill <vik@genxlegal.com
<mailto:vik@genxlegal.com> >
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: FIGHTING GRADE
INFLATION, or Grades?

Vik's comments raise some good discussion points
about the broader issues of grading. I'm having trouble, however, tying
them back to Grade Inflation.

Vik's remarks below, about students who lack the
"willingness to
conform to an established system (usually the
dominant culture's values)" raise an interesting point. How do we handle
those who "march to a different drum"?

The discussion does not, however, address the one of
the the basic debates in grade inflationSome students think they can "pay a
fee and get a B" with little regard to whether or not they have mastered the
course content.

As a teacher at a public university, I am a
custodian of public goods: namely my expertise - which goes into course
content - and the surrounding facilities which students can use to gain an
education in preparation for the future.

If I give everyone a B just for showing up, it is
unfair to the students who work to apply themselves and learn the course
material. It cheapens their degree, abd degrades their hard work. It is
unfair for them to be associated in the market with slackers whom I have
allowed to slide through my classes without any real effort. Giving slackers
easy grades is a failure to protect the public goods entrusted to me - one
part of them being the reputation of our university as a serious and
valuable educational institution.

I'm not a cruel teacher. In fact, I receive
occasional pings on teaching evaluations from students who thought I was
"too kind" to their marginal classmates.

Students who apply themselves and work to grasp the
material should be able to secure an A or a B. Some are content, however, to
slide by with a C -- unfortunately, such students often fail to work hard
enough even to get a C, and get a D or an F.

Students can hand in early versions of major
projects for review and advice. A few submit full drafts for consultation,
many ask a question or two about the project, and a few on assignment
turn-in day say, "Oh, was there a project due in this class?"

As for transcripts and grades and jobs, Kim Boal's
remark on school pedigree and first jobs says it all.

I sense employers - many of whom went to college
also - take a broad view of grades. For the most part, firms are looking
for the fast trackers (A-B students) and the slackers (a 2.1 GPA on a 4-
point scale, with several retakes of basis courses). The remainder fall
into that mass of humanity who receive further consideration based on
non-academic factors.

JPO

John P. Orr, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Management
Cameron University
Lawton, OK

============================

Edryce comments:

> Though I cannot cite the specifics, I believe
several
> researchers have found no significant connection
> between grades in college and "success" on the
job.
> If that has been accepted, then why do employers
care
> about such specific grades? It seems to me that
what
> employers are concerned about is the fact that a
> particular student had the self-discipline to make
it
> through college, showing that (s)he might be a
good
> employee.

I've always rather wondered whether this practice is
essentially
predicated upon 1) a normative sense of status ("all
our MBA recruits
have top GPAs"), and 2) conformity (the student
jumped through the
required hoops at school, hence we think it's likely
she'll do same
here).

"Poor" grades tend to raise flags about the
student's willingness to
conform to an established system (usually the
dominant culture's
values). Capitalism depends upon a high level of
willingness to
conform. Whether we approve of this thinking or
not, is entirely
another matter, of course.

Vik Gill


John P. Orr, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Management
School of Business, Rm. 314
Cameron University
2800 West Gore Blvd.
Lawton, OK 73505
Phone: 580-581-2367

________________________________________________________________________
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Glasgow
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Tel: +44 (0) 141 248 2700.
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It may contain legally privileged information. The contents are not to
be disclosed to anyone other than the addressee. Unauthorised recipients
are requested to preserve this confidentiality and to advise the sender
immediately of any error in transmission.

Putting the issue of grades on the back burner for a moment, I would
like a clarification in the argument.

Implicit in your remarks (and many others), seems to be the assertion
that the purpose of Higher Education is to train workers for the
workplace. For the purpose of this thread, are we to accept, as fact,
that the purpose of the University (Higher Education) is to cater to the
needs of the workplace?

Whatever happened to the notion that the University was to educate
people for life? Didn't we develop the community college system and
technical schools to train workers for the workplace? Have we blurred
the distinction? Have we given up on the noble task of educating for
life? Have we sold out to the commercial interests?

Now, on the issue of grades. It seems to me that the initial discontent
over grades came from the other Institutions of Higher Learning. Was
this professional (or commercial) jealousy? Are there some criteria
that all these institutions abide by? Are we using the same standards
to measure performance/outcomes? Or has the grade itself become the
standard--i.e., because the student got a B, he/she ought to be able to
do level B work. This last point seems rather backwards, but
unfortunately, that's how the argument seems to be progressing.

Phillip Rutherford wrote:
>
> Rao Kowtha makes a lot of sense with what he says and rather than give him
> his counter-argument I'd like to make a suggestion as to why his points come
> crashing so loudly home.
>
> Having only been involved at the under- and post-graduate level for five
> years with twenty odd years at vocational level before that, I'm not privvy
> to what goes on in every higher education institution. But, from my
> experience having working with universities and business colleges here and
> overseas for the past 10-12 years I can state that many of them are
> responsible for their own difficulties because of the incessant belief that
> what employers want out of graduates is a qualification. This belief is
> reinforced by the fact that most HE/FE institutions spend a great deal of
> their time advertising the quality of their faculties and qualifications and
> nothing else.
>
> We have a very dumb car add out here. It pushes the 'Zoom Zoom' appeal but
> says nothing about the car itself. I can't even remember what kind of car it
> is beyond that fact that it 'Zoom Zooms'. Many universities and institutes
> of further education do the same thing. The advertising would have us
> believe that all business students should strive for an MBA, and an MBA
> from, say Harvard or Kellog, is better than one from the University of
> Vanuatu. Well, I'm sorry to say this isn't true for the people of Vanuatu
> where while their university is the best one for them, an MBA isn't in
> particular high demand. In fact a report not long ago stated that the
> majority of MBAs in Australia go to the public service on graduation, and a
> similar one not long ago in the US stated that most MBAs go to high paying
> consultancy firms. Why aren't they being paid top dollar in private
> enterprise? Because most employers don't want qualifications - they want
> people who can do the job.
>
> Sure, some employers will say that they want qualified people, but there are
> so many qualified people out there that a qualification is usually used to
> short-list applicants, not give any one the job. When two hundred
> applications come in the person sorting them (not usually anyone involved in
> the final interview or deliberation either) needs something to sort out who
> goes on to the next stage and who doesn't. And it doesn't matter how highly
> qualified the final group are, if they don't relate to the interviewer/s or
> don't appear to be able to grasp the company dream then they're out the
> door.
>
> The only way we, the educators, can hope to put our institution ahead of the
> pack is to stop telling the world what we are going to give (except, of
> course, in the areas of high research and architecture), and start listening
> to what employers want.
>
> A few years ago I was asked to facilitate the solution to a problem a small
> town in the centre of England was facing. The problem was one of high
> unemployment amongst school leavers, despite the plethora of jobs available.
> My solution? I brought the local townspeople into the school and had them
> work with the teachers to develop a curriculum that integrated the last two
> years (I preferred three but two was all I could get) of school with the
> first few years of work life. This wasn't based on any fancy education
> program (such as in England, the GNVQs, or in Australia the Key
> Competencies), it was based on common sense and mutual understandings. And
> while I didn't see any more of this program beyond its first year it
> appeared to be on track for solving one of the worst problems most
> communities have in the world today.
>
> I am continuing to run a similar program at higher education level in one
> particular profession and after four years have had a 100% success rate with
> job placement - at times even higher (ie, people have gone in for one job
> and ended up getting a better one).
>
> Why can't we, with all our collective common sense and perceived education,
> do the same within our communities? Get rid of this outdated notion that
> communities, employers and the nation as a whole are going to be satisfied
> with what we are prepared to give them ("They can have any colour as long as
> it is black!") and start looking more closely at what they want. Then, and
> only then, will we find out how much regard is given to the courses we run
> and the students we turn out, and no more will we need to worry about
> inflating or deflating our grades - grades won't matter a toss.
>
> Phil Rutherford

Dear Bob,
I agree with you. I believe the business of education is not business, but
in the words of John Henry Newman in his book The Idea of a University,
"Education for education sake" which is the basis of a liberal education, or
as you say, Bob, "education for life." This is what I am seeking to do in
facilitating knowledge at Baldwin-Wallace which is a Liberal Arts college.

Peace and Love
Harry

******************************************************
Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
Baldwin-Wallace College
275 Eastland Road
Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
Office Phone: (440)826-2395
***********************************************************



-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Carr [mailto:bcarr@wfubmc.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:09 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


Putting the issue of grades on the back burner for a moment, I would
like a clarification in the argument.

Implicit in your remarks (and many others), seems to be the assertion
that the purpose of Higher Education is to train workers for the
workplace. For the purpose of this thread, are we to accept, as fact,
that the purpose of the University (Higher Education) is to cater to the
needs of the workplace?

Whatever happened to the notion that the University was to educate
people for life? Didn't we develop the community college system and
technical schools to train workers for the workplace? Have we blurred
the distinction? Have we given up on the noble task of educating for
life? Have we sold out to the commercial interests?

Now, on the issue of grades. It seems to me that the initial discontent
over grades came from the other Institutions of Higher Learning. Was
this professional (or commercial) jealousy? Are there some criteria
that all these institutions abide by? Are we using the same standards
to measure performance/outcomes? Or has the grade itself become the
standard--i.e., because the student got a B, he/she ought to be able to
do level B work. This last point seems rather backwards, but
unfortunately, that's how the argument seems to be progressing.

Phillip Rutherford wrote:
>
> Rao Kowtha makes a lot of sense with what he says and rather than give him
> his counter-argument I'd like to make a suggestion as to why his points
come
> crashing so loudly home.
>
> Having only been involved at the under- and post-graduate level for five
> years with twenty odd years at vocational level before that, I'm not
privvy
> to what goes on in every higher education institution. But, from my
> experience having working with universities and business colleges here and
> overseas for the past 10-12 years I can state that many of them are
> responsible for their own difficulties because of the incessant belief
that
> what employers want out of graduates is a qualification. This belief is
> reinforced by the fact that most HE/FE institutions spend a great deal of
> their time advertising the quality of their faculties and qualifications
and
> nothing else.
>
> We have a very dumb car add out here. It pushes the 'Zoom Zoom' appeal but
> says nothing about the car itself. I can't even remember what kind of car
it
> is beyond that fact that it 'Zoom Zooms'. Many universities and institutes
> of further education do the same thing. The advertising would have us
> believe that all business students should strive for an MBA, and an MBA
> from, say Harvard or Kellog, is better than one from the University of
> Vanuatu. Well, I'm sorry to say this isn't true for the people of Vanuatu
> where while their university is the best one for them, an MBA isn't in
> particular high demand. In fact a report not long ago stated that the
> majority of MBAs in Australia go to the public service on graduation, and
a
> similar one not long ago in the US stated that most MBAs go to high paying
> consultancy firms. Why aren't they being paid top dollar in private
> enterprise? Because most employers don't want qualifications - they want
> people who can do the job.
>
> Sure, some employers will say that they want qualified people, but there
are
> so many qualified people out there that a qualification is usually used to
> short-list applicants, not give any one the job. When two hundred
> applications come in the person sorting them (not usually anyone involved
in
> the final interview or deliberation either) needs something to sort out
who
> goes on to the next stage and who doesn't. And it doesn't matter how
highly
> qualified the final group are, if they don't relate to the interviewer/s
or
> don't appear to be able to grasp the company dream then they're out the
> door.
>
> The only way we, the educators, can hope to put our institution ahead of
the
> pack is to stop telling the world what we are going to give (except, of
> course, in the areas of high research and architecture), and start
listening
> to what employers want.
>
> A few years ago I was asked to facilitate the solution to a problem a
small
> town in the centre of England was facing. The problem was one of high
> unemployment amongst school leavers, despite the plethora of jobs
available.
> My solution? I brought the local townspeople into the school and had them
> work with the teachers to develop a curriculum that integrated the last
two
> years (I preferred three but two was all I could get) of school with the
> first few years of work life. This wasn't based on any fancy education
> program (such as in England, the GNVQs, or in Australia the Key
> Competencies), it was based on common sense and mutual understandings. And
> while I didn't see any more of this program beyond its first year it
> appeared to be on track for solving one of the worst problems most
> communities have in the world today.
>
> I am continuing to run a similar program at higher education level in one
> particular profession and after four years have had a 100% success rate
with
> job placement - at times even higher (ie, people have gone in for one job
> and ended up getting a better one).
>
> Why can't we, with all our collective common sense and perceived
education,
> do the same within our communities? Get rid of this outdated notion that
> communities, employers and the nation as a whole are going to be satisfied
> with what we are prepared to give them ("They can have any colour as long
as
> it is black!") and start looking more closely at what they want. Then, and
> only then, will we find out how much regard is given to the courses we run
> and the students we turn out, and no more will we need to worry about
> inflating or deflating our grades - grades won't matter a toss.
>
> Phil Rutherford

I think the "business of education" is multifaceted.
I will always be glad that my first college experience
was in a liberal arts institution, because it gave me
that solid base for future learning (and living). I
sometimes remind business students that education
itself was originally ONLY for life, not work. They
think that's kind of silly (everything must have a
definite, measurable, purpose?) but I say it anyway.

Some people go to higher education because their
parents want them to; others go so they will make
"connections;" others go to get better jobs; and a
small few, I think, go because they want to learn.

"Education for life" wouldn't get very much financial
support for a college or university these days, but it
would be good for all of us if that were the focus.

Edryce

--- Harry Bury <HBury@bw.edu> wrote:
> Dear Bob,
> I agree with you. I believe the business of
> education is not business, but
> in the words of John Henry Newman in his book The
> Idea of a University,
> "Education for education sake" which is the basis of
> a liberal education, or
> as you say, Bob, "education for life." This is what
> I am seeking to do in
> facilitating knowledge at Baldwin-Wallace which is a
> Liberal Arts college.
>
> Peace and Love
> Harry
>
>
******************************************************
> Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
> Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems
> Management
> Baldwin-Wallace College
> 275 Eastland Road
> Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
> Office Phone: (440)826-2395


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Bob,

You have reiterated a point I've been coming across over the past ten years,
and that is there are going to be higher (ie vocational) and, more
especially, further education (ie, academic) institutions whose strength and
reputation lays in the achievement of their qualification. These
institutions are, as one senior academic in the UK once told me, proud of
the fact that they turn out high quality priests, politicians, public
servants and another word that starts with 'P'. That is their strength - the
old school tie, a shared hardship of masters and tuck shops, right Steven
Fry sort of lifestyle.

And I say good luck to them. This is their market niche and within it they
should excel. But, the instituions I am talking about are those who purport
to be 'turning out people ready for work' but who, in reality, are not.
Harvard, for example, is one institution whose students would rebel at the
thought that they were being prepared for anything but the world of work.
However, it appears that those running the organisation are more interested
in the quality of 'the old school tie' than they are in the quality of those
who pass through their doors.

That is my argument.

Regards

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Carr" <bcarr@wfubmc.edu>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Putting the issue of grades on the back burner for a moment, I would
> like a clarification in the argument.
>
> Implicit in your remarks (and many others), seems to be the assertion
> that the purpose of Higher Education is to train workers for the
> workplace. For the purpose of this thread, are we to accept, as fact,
> that the purpose of the University (Higher Education) is to cater to the
> needs of the workplace?
>
> Whatever happened to the notion that the University was to educate
> people for life? Didn't we develop the community college system and
> technical schools to train workers for the workplace? Have we blurred
> the distinction? Have we given up on the noble task of educating for
> life? Have we sold out to the commercial interests?
>
> Now, on the issue of grades. It seems to me that the initial discontent
> over grades came from the other Institutions of Higher Learning. Was
> this professional (or commercial) jealousy? Are there some criteria
> that all these institutions abide by? Are we using the same standards
> to measure performance/outcomes? Or has the grade itself become the
> standard--i.e., because the student got a B, he/she ought to be able to
> do level B work. This last point seems rather backwards, but
> unfortunately, that's how the argument seems to be progressing.

<<SNIP>>

I have been following the discussion with interest, as I am an employer. So
here's my 2 cents worth. I look for high grades where there is a
challenging position requiring someone to think logically and problem solve.
Let's take the example of HR. To me, a university education says that
someone has had the discipline and commitment to pursue a course of study
for three years. Not only that, but in order to get high grades, they've
had to be able to manage their time effectively regarding assignment due
dates and managing their time. They have also been able to construct a
logical argument and write a written report. They can string sentences
together and know the meaning of "flow," "conciseness," and "implications."
These are important in the business world, especially the bottom-line
implications for the business. These are not necessarily financial, but
interpersonal as well, particularly in the service organisation in which I
work. So it is not the grades per se that are important, but what they
represent. It is the interpersonal qualities I am looking for, the way
someone has applied themselves to their studies. There are people who can
get an A (85%) by cramming the night before and barely doing a scrap of
work. It is these people who perhaps may not be the success stories despite
high grades, because they lack the discipline and commitment to what
education is all about. So I don't rely on grades as the be-all and end-all
selection process. I test how they have applied themselves. I look for
evidence through behavioural interviewing (presenting scenarios and seeing
how they handle them), I do structured reference checking based around the
requirements of the job, to see whether previous employers have noted the
skills and abilities I need from that person. If they all match up, then
great, I'm more likely to have an intelligent, disciplined and committed
individual on my books who is more likely to stay with the organisation.
There is so much more than just grades, grades are an indicator for me to
begin the selection process. The catchphrase is still probably Emotional
Intelligence - how we use our intelligence and, in particular, Daniel
Goleman's book "Working with Emotional Intelligence" gives some great
examples of what we employers look for/should be looking for.


Charlotte Stephens
HUMAN RESOURCES MANAGER




----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Cornesky" <TQM1BOB@aol.com>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


Colleagues:

Phil Rutherford stated:

"The only way we, the educators, can hope to put our institution ahead of
the
pack is to stop telling the world what we are going to give (except, of
course, in the areas of high research and architecture), and start listening
to what employers want."

Phil is, of course, correct. And if you are interested in meeting the wants
and needs of your customers in your curriculums, you might find the
following
references useful:


Bier, Ian, and Robert Cornesky (2000). Using QualityFunction Deployment to
Construct an Oriental Medicine Curriculum that Meets theNeeds of Our
Customers. Quality Progress, April 2001.

and

Cornesky, Robert. "Using Quality Function Deployment to Build Curriculums
that Meet the Needs of Your Customers."; Paper to presented at the Annual
International Meeting of the American Society for Quality, Scottsdale,
Arizona, September 11-13, 2000.

Dear Edryce,
I agree with you. I wish it were different and that we made a greater
distinction between vocational schools and Liberal Arts Colleges. But, since
we don't, I find it a delightful challenge to mix the skills that come from
training and without which we would not get any Executives in the Executive
MBA with philosophy. That way I get my cake and eat it too. They get the
skills they crave and I get the ahaas I crave.
Peace and Love,
Harry

******************************************************
Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems Management
Baldwin-Wallace College
275 Eastland Road
Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
Office Phone: (440)826-2395
***********************************************************



-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 7:45 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


I think the "business of education" is multifaceted.
I will always be glad that my first college experience
was in a liberal arts institution, because it gave me
that solid base for future learning (and living). I
sometimes remind business students that education
itself was originally ONLY for life, not work. They
think that's kind of silly (everything must have a
definite, measurable, purpose?) but I say it anyway.

Some people go to higher education because their
parents want them to; others go so they will make
"connections;" others go to get better jobs; and a
small few, I think, go because they want to learn.

"Education for life" wouldn't get very much financial
support for a college or university these days, but it
would be good for all of us if that were the focus.

Edryce

--- Harry Bury <HBury@bw.edu> wrote:
> Dear Bob,
> I agree with you. I believe the business of
> education is not business, but
> in the words of John Henry Newman in his book The
> Idea of a University,
> "Education for education sake" which is the basis of
> a liberal education, or
> as you say, Bob, "education for life." This is what
> I am seeking to do in
> facilitating knowledge at Baldwin-Wallace which is a
> Liberal Arts college.
>
> Peace and Love
> Harry
>
>
******************************************************
> Prof. Harry J. Bury, Ph.D.
> Professor of Organizational Behavior and Systems
> Management
> Baldwin-Wallace College
> 275 Eastland Road
> Berea, Ohio 44017-2088
> Office Phone: (440)826-2395


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Oh, thank you so much for bringing up this term. I have always wanted an
explanation of what it is supposed to mean.

My daughter just finished her degree with top honors and recognition at one
of the oldest and most presitiguous of the American Universities ... a
hallowed place, indeed. Her degree is in Anthropology, specializing in
folklore, an area her University has an excellent reputation.

Upon graduation her newly acquired college skillset resulted in her being
less prepared for the realities of life than she was when she began ... and
many thousands of dollars in debt. So, exactly what life she being prepared
for in her ivy league style program? What was supposed to be the return on
investment for her college expenses and years of hard work? What is any
education that does not lead to an improved ability to support ones self and
family supposed to be returning on the investment?

I was very glad when our high school system started asking the really
salient questions. If a student said a degree in English the question was
further asked: In order to go do what ... the required courses would be
different for English leading to Journalism vs English leading to teaching
English.

I am a self-confessed business educator. My goal is to educate people to
become strategic business leaders from whatever their role within an
organization. The community college or trade tech schools don't serve this
market or achieve this objective. Solid business programs within good
universities do. Faculty who understand that theory is nice, but reality is
where business happens are essential to a good program.

I believe in performance measures because business leaders have to live with
them in their future careers ...personal, team, and organizational. If
all other measures are stripped away, they will still be measured by the
viablity of their company. As Drucker said .. serve the customer or die.
(well, not in those exact words).


"Whatever happened to the notion that the University was to educate people
for life? "
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Carr" <bcarr@wfubmc.edu>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Putting the issue of grades on the back burner for a moment, I would
> like a clarification in the argument.
>
> Implicit in your remarks (and many others), seems to be the assertion
> that the purpose of Higher Education is to train workers for the
> workplace. For the purpose of this thread, are we to accept, as fact,
> that the purpose of the University (Higher Education) is to cater to the
> needs of the workplace?
>
> Whatever happened to the notion that the University was to educate
> people for life? Didn't we develop the community college system and
> technical schools to train workers for the workplace? Have we blurred
> the distinction? Have we given up on the noble task of educating for
> life? Have we sold out to the commercial interests?
>
> Now, on the issue of grades. It seems to me that the initial discontent
> over grades came from the other Institutions of Higher Learning. Was
> this professional (or commercial) jealousy? Are there some criteria
> that all these institutions abide by? Are we using the same standards
> to measure performance/outcomes? Or has the grade itself become the
> standard--i.e., because the student got a B, he/she ought to be able to
> do level B work. This last point seems rather backwards, but
> unfortunately, that's how the argument seems to be progressing.
>
> Phillip Rutherford wrote:
> >
> > Rao Kowtha makes a lot of sense with what he says and rather than give
him
> > his counter-argument I'd like to make a suggestion as to why his points
come
> > crashing so loudly home.
> >
> > Having only been involved at the under- and post-graduate level for five
> > years with twenty odd years at vocational level before that, I'm not
privvy
> > to what goes on in every higher education institution. But, from my
> > experience having working with universities and business colleges here
and
> > overseas for the past 10-12 years I can state that many of them are
> > responsible for their own difficulties because of the incessant belief
that
> > what employers want out of graduates is a qualification. This belief is
> > reinforced by the fact that most HE/FE institutions spend a great deal
of
> > their time advertising the quality of their faculties and qualifications
and
> > nothing else.
> >
> > We have a very dumb car add out here. It pushes the 'Zoom Zoom' appeal
but
> > says nothing about the car itself. I can't even remember what kind of
car it
> > is beyond that fact that it 'Zoom Zooms'. Many universities and
institutes
> > of further education do the same thing. The advertising would have us
> > believe that all business students should strive for an MBA, and an MBA
> > from, say Harvard or Kellog, is better than one from the University of
> > Vanuatu. Well, I'm sorry to say this isn't true for the people of
Vanuatu
> > where while their university is the best one for them, an MBA isn't in
> > particular high demand. In fact a report not long ago stated that the
> > majority of MBAs in Australia go to the public service on graduation,
and a
> > similar one not long ago in the US stated that most MBAs go to high
paying
> > consultancy firms. Why aren't they being paid top dollar in private
> > enterprise? Because most employers don't want qualifications - they want
> > people who can do the job.
> >
> > Sure, some employers will say that they want qualified people, but there
are
> > so many qualified people out there that a qualification is usually used
to
> > short-list applicants, not give any one the job. When two hundred
> > applications come in the person sorting them (not usually anyone
involved in
> > the final interview or deliberation either) needs something to sort out
who
> > goes on to the next stage and who doesn't. And it doesn't matter how
highly
> > qualified the final group are, if they don't relate to the interviewer/s
or
> > don't appear to be able to grasp the company dream then they're out the
> > door.
> >
> > The only way we, the educators, can hope to put our institution ahead of
the
> > pack is to stop telling the world what we are going to give (except, of
> > course, in the areas of high research and architecture), and start
listening
> > to what employers want.
> >
> > A few years ago I was asked to facilitate the solution to a problem a
small
> > town in the centre of England was facing. The problem was one of high
> > unemployment amongst school leavers, despite the plethora of jobs
available.
> > My solution? I brought the local townspeople into the school and had
them
> > work with the teachers to develop a curriculum that integrated the last
two
> > years (I preferred three but two was all I could get) of school with the
> > first few years of work life. This wasn't based on any fancy education
> > program (such as in England, the GNVQs, or in Australia the Key
> > Competencies), it was based on common sense and mutual understandings.
And
> > while I didn't see any more of this program beyond its first year it
> > appeared to be on track for solving one of the worst problems most
> > communities have in the world today.
> >
> > I am continuing to run a similar program at higher education level in
one
> > particular profession and after four years have had a 100% success rate
with
> > job placement - at times even higher (ie, people have gone in for one
job
> > and ended up getting a better one).
> >
> > Why can't we, with all our collective common sense and perceived
education,
> > do the same within our communities? Get rid of this outdated notion that
> > communities, employers and the nation as a whole are going to be
satisfied
> > with what we are prepared to give them ("They can have any colour as
long as
> > it is black!") and start looking more closely at what they want. Then,
and
> > only then, will we find out how much regard is given to the courses we
run
> > and the students we turn out, and no more will we need to worry about
> > inflating or deflating our grades - grades won't matter a toss.
> >
> > Phil Rutherford
>
>

It seems that high grades don't get you everything .... at least not at
some places. The BBC ran the following earlier today

"A Cambridge college has defended its decision
not to offer a place to a student who gained
some of the best Higher results in Scotland.

Gary Sinclair who attended Fortrose Academy
on the Black Isle, failed to get a place at
Cambridge despite securing straight A-grades
in his Higher, Sixth Year Studies and Advanced
Higher exams in five subjects.

Mr Sinclair, 18, accused
Magdalene College of
elitism, saying his state
school background had
played a part in the
decision."

For the rest of the story go to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1627000/1627804.stm

From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]

On 26 Oct 01, at 8:44, Phillip Rutherford wrote:

> But I'm not talking about these people. I'm talking about those who do

> get good grades based on the work they and their tutors/teachers put
> in - but are suspected of getting the grades because either 'the
> system' is wrong or the people doing the marking made mistakes. Why
> can't we just accept that people can rate highly, and just because
> there are more this year than last year that doesn't take away this
> fact.

I'm a bit lost again, because I don't see people making those
accusations in a destructive sense. I doubt anyone with any
measurement background (and clearly there are people on this list
would same), would take for granted that ANY measurement
system is valid and useful without some demonstrable evidence
that it is fair, and serves the purpose it is supposed to achieve.

Measurement systems are often "wrong" in one way or another. It
seems exceedingly sensible to take a systems approach and
examine where things go wrong.

On another note, it's quite different to apply penalties after the fact
upon students (because of the grade distribution) compared to what
Harvard seems to be doing, which is examining the system so it
works to everyone's benefit.

Robert Bacal, ceo@work911.com


Over 1200 work-related articles online at http://www.articles911.com

Dear all,

In countries like ours, where large number of candidates compete for few
jobs, grades get used by employers to simplify the selection process. If
there is grade inflation (which can also be an outcome of the rat race for
employment), then the employers are left with no choice but to either ask
for finer grades or use their own testing mechanisms to eliminate the large
majority. Economies of scale would then lead to the emergence of testing
agencies that simplify the selection process for the employers.

While absolute grades communicate the student's worth in our eyes to the
student her/himself or act as a good feedback mechanism for her/his
improvement, relative grades or finer grades are required by employers of
countries like ours.

With warm regards,


A. Sreekumar.
(Fellow of IIM Ahmedabad)

Dean, Faculty of Management Studies and
Coordinator, Tourism Studies Group, Goa University, Goa, INDIA 403206

Phone 91-832-454350/454327 (or dial 451347 and on hearing beep press * and
dial 350 or 327) Res. 452769 Fax 451184
Email sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: Kim Boal <KimBoal@TTU.EDU>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE EXCERPT: FIGHTING GRADE INFLATION


> Dear Colleagues, I think Edryce is partially correct. Grades and where
you
> went to school clearly influence a person's first job placement and
salary.
> However, after 5 years on the job, grades account for approximately 2% of
> the varaince in salaries.
>
> I always tell my students, that ultimately, job performance swamps
> credentials.
>
> Kim Boal
>
>
> At 01:14 AM 10/26/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >Though I cannot cite the specifics, I believe several
> >researchers have found no significant connection
> >between grades in college and "success" on the job.
> >If that has been accepted, then why do employers care
> >about such specific grades? It seems to me that what
> >employers are concerned about is the fact that a
> >particular student had the self-discipline to make it
> >through college, showing that (s)he might be a good
> >employee.
> >
> >Edryce
> >
> >--- Ancheri Sreekumar <sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Dear colleagues,
> >>
> >> For few years, we had our grade point average
> >> requirement for an overall
> >> pass in MBA reduced from 4 to 2 in a 10 point scale.
> >>
> >> We then realised that the teachers started using the
> >> full spectrum from 10
> >> to 2 when the passing grade was reduced to 2.
> >> Earlier, most of the teachers
> >> were using only the 10 to 4 range. In other words, a
> >> student failing was
> >> considered as too costly by the teachers, while they
> >> did not mind finer
> >> gradations as long as the student passes. (I do not
> >> know whether such an
> >> orientation on the part of teachers is a product of
> >> the culture of my
> >> country.)
> >>
> >> In a course, over years, if most of the students get
> >> A grade, then the world
> >> of employers may require finer gradations within the
> >> A grade for meaningful
> >> use of grades for selection decisions.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> With warm regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> A. Sreekumar.
> >> (Fellow of IIM Ahmedabad)
> >>
> >> Dean, Faculty of Management Studies and
> >> Coordinator, Tourism Studies Group, Goa University,
> >> Goa, INDIA 403206
> >>
> >> Phone 91-832-454350/454327 (or dial 451347 and on
> >> hearing beep press * and
> >> dial 350 or 327) Res. 452769 Fax 451184
> >> Email sreeancheri@yahoo.co.uk
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> >http://personals.yahoo.com
> >
> --------------------------------
> Kim Boal
> College of Business Administration
> Texas Tech University
> Lubbock, TX 79409
> (806) 742-2150
> KimBoal@ttu.edu


_________________________________________________________
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From: Tony Nolan [mailto:Tony.Nolan@uts.edu.au]

Hey,

I think its an very interesting topic also. As a stats person, I am
always interested in having a base line measure for comparision between
groups.

Another topic close to my heart, for another discussion is about how
people get accepted into programs, especially post grad programs, and
what if these people dont have an undergrad, yet are brillant in many
fields. Many self made people, dont get the educational back ground for
some time later, they have a natural ability to perform. Yet, they get
excluded in many ways, as fo transdisicplinists.

So when we get a quiet time, thats my contrubution :)

Regards
tony Nolan OAM