Discussion: View Thread

Nick--

I think you put your finger on a key problem. Student expectations are
one reason, I think, that it takes courage to teach in the discovery
mode. There are always some students (as much as 3/4 of the class) who
are very uncomfortable at first and, by the end of the course, one
student who absolutely hates it (which is reflected in the evaluations
that will be considered when I apply for my next job!) Most love the
freedom once they come to trust that I really mean it. All elements of
the syllabus, in-class behavior, and "hallway talk" about me need to be
aligned for that to happen.

> Is there a way to
> quantify what a student has learned? If not, how do we get away with
> giving grades.

I realize that in some fields you do need to make sure that the students
have learned specific things. For me (and again, I teach such things as
OB and leadership), grading is unabashedly subjective as were my
evaluations of people who worked for me. For some assignments, I tell
them that the grading is based simply on whether or not I think they
took the assignment seriously. That's where the rubber meets the road
as far as trust is concerned. I think that subjective assessment is the
only way to do grading under a social contract that allows students the
freedom to learn how, and to some extent what, works for them. Having
established that relationship and set of expectations, I think that it
would be hypocritical in the extreme to turn around and treat the
person's work, which is a very personal and subjective expression of who
he or she is, in an objective fashion.

Ruth

From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]

The whole issue of grades is a part of the problem.
This makes education an extrinsically driven endeavor.
Why not use pass-fail.
A part of the criteria for the pass fail is that the teacher must not
only give pass and fail but write an evaluation of a student's
performance.
Surely that would be more valuable than a simple letter grade.

rusty rae
thegraduate@centurytel.net

OR.....let the students grade themselves, with written
rationales. That was working for me once until the
administration came down on me and stopped it.

Edryce

--- Charles Wankel <cxx@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
>
> The whole issue of grades is a part of the problem.
> This makes education an extrinsically driven
> endeavor.
> Why not use pass-fail.
> A part of the criteria for the pass fail is that
> the teacher must not
> only give pass and fail but write an evaluation of a
> student's
> performance.
> Surely that would be more valuable than a simple
> letter grade.
>
> rusty rae
> thegraduate@centurytel.net


__________________________________________________
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Hi,

I was wondering how people are coping with the traffic on the list ?

Is it possible to have MG-ED inserted in the front of each topic line, so
you can sort and trasfer by grouping the emails into a directory. Its gets
difficult to transfer each one, and then to read them, where a grouping
option would be really helpful.

Regards
Tony Nolan

Tony,
Many subscribers are already getting tags in the subject field
saying [Mg-Ed-Dv] for each message they receive from the list. To have
this option send to:
LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
The message
SET MG-ED-DV SUBJ

Best regards,
Charles Wankel
Mg-Ed-Dv List Director

-----Original Message-----

Is it possible to have MG-ED inserted in the front of each topic line,
so you can sort and trasfer by grouping the emails into a directory. Its
gets difficult to transfer each one, and then to read them, where a
grouping option would be really helpful.
Tony Nolan

Evaluations are only valuable if someone reads them. "I passed" and "I Aced
it!" have different connotations that don't require any further reading to
understand the difference.

To me a grading scale is simply a form of a Likert scale. I happen to
teach at one university that only uses a 5 point scale ... No pluses or
minues. Your suggestion would decrease me to a 2 point scale (good enough
or not good enough aka pass/fail). I want to be able to acknowledge the
quality of my students performance. To praise them. To further
differentiate my praise, I would like to have more than 5 points, not less.

Finally, a lot of my students are on tuition reimbursement from their
company. A- vs B makes a financial difference to some of them.

Conna Condon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies


> From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
>
> The whole issue of grades is a part of the problem.
> This makes education an extrinsically driven endeavor.
> Why not use pass-fail.
> A part of the criteria for the pass fail is that the teacher must not
> only give pass and fail but write an evaluation of a student's
> performance.
> Surely that would be more valuable than a simple letter grade.
>
> rusty rae
> thegraduate@centurytel.net
>
>

This is why the use of grades is so embedded in our
systems - and why we are having such a difficult time
getting rid of them. As long as grading exists, there
will be a gulf between teacher and student.

Edryce

--- Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote:
> Evaluations are only valuable if someone reads them.
> "I passed" and "I Aced
> it!" have different connotations that don't require
> any further reading to
> understand the difference.
>
> To me a grading scale is simply a form of a Likert
> scale. I happen to
> teach at one university that only uses a 5 point
> scale ... No pluses or
> minues. Your suggestion would decrease me to a 2
> point scale (good enough
> or not good enough aka pass/fail). I want to be
> able to acknowledge the
> quality of my students performance. To praise them.
> To further
> differentiate my praise, I would like to have more
> than 5 points, not less.
>
> Finally, a lot of my students are on tuition
> reimbursement from their
> company. A- vs B makes a financial difference to
> some of them.
>
> Conna Condon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
> To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies
>
>
> > From: rusty rae
> [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
> >
> > The whole issue of grades is a part of the
> problem.
> > This makes education an extrinsically driven
> endeavor.
> > Why not use pass-fail.
> > A part of the criteria for the pass fail is
> that the teacher must not
> > only give pass and fail but write an evaluation of
> a student's
> > performance.
> > Surely that would be more valuable than a
> simple letter grade.
> >
> > rusty rae
> > thegraduate@centurytel.net
> >
> >


__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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I don't have a gulf between me and my students and I do grade. I am known
to be a tough grader, too. So, in my experience likert scale grading
doesn't create a gulf.

Why do you think they create a gulf?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Edryce Reynolds" <edryce@yahoo.com>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies


> This is why the use of grades is so embedded in our
> systems - and why we are having such a difficult time
> getting rid of them. As long as grading exists, there
> will be a gulf between teacher and student.
>
> Edryce
>
> --- Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote:
> > Evaluations are only valuable if someone reads them.
> > "I passed" and "I Aced
> > it!" have different connotations that don't require
> > any further reading to
> > understand the difference.
> >
> > To me a grading scale is simply a form of a Likert
> > scale. I happen to
> > teach at one university that only uses a 5 point
> > scale ... No pluses or
> > minues. Your suggestion would decrease me to a 2
> > point scale (good enough
> > or not good enough aka pass/fail). I want to be
> > able to acknowledge the
> > quality of my students performance. To praise them.
> > To further
> > differentiate my praise, I would like to have more
> > than 5 points, not less.
> >
> > Finally, a lot of my students are on tuition
> > reimbursement from their
> > company. A- vs B makes a financial difference to
> > some of them.
> >
> > Conna Condon
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
> > To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 1:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies
> >
> >
> > > From: rusty rae
> > [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
> > >
> > > The whole issue of grades is a part of the
> > problem.
> > > This makes education an extrinsically driven
> > endeavor.
> > > Why not use pass-fail.
> > > A part of the criteria for the pass fail is
> > that the teacher must not
> > > only give pass and fail but write an evaluation of
> > a student's
> > > performance.
> > > Surely that would be more valuable than a
> > simple letter grade.
> > >
> > > rusty rae
> > > thegraduate@centurytel.net
> > >
> > >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
>
>

I do not see a valid assumption or correlation between "Grades" and a gulf
between teacher and student. I think the gulf is created due to a lack
detailed, specific and timely feedback, and due to a lack of organizational
support. The more comments we make that enables the student to improve
his/her work the better the relationship between student and teacher.
Especially if the student gains a clear understanding about what s/he did
"right" and "wrong". If a student perceives a sense of procedural fairness
s/he will typically respond to negative feedback in a more open and
reflexive way.

However, providing feedback with depth and breadth requires time so
teachers who choose to provide such feedback are displaying a form of
"organizational citizenship' behavior that is rarely recognized but
expected - except by the better teaching universities. Combine this lack
of organizational support with the current commercialization of education
and we have a problem - a gulf emerges between student and teacher, the
grades system has nothing to do with it.

Tyrone S. Pitsis

Well, this will take some explaining! I call it a
"gulf" because I like for the "facilitating" aspect of
learning to be in effect when I teach. I believe, and
I have read studies that support my belief, that as
long as I retain the power to give a grade, I cannot
get the kind of involvement from students that I want.
In spite of themselves, they will (probably) do what
they think will get the best grade. To me, that is a
"gulf."

I realize that we can develop good relationships with
our students, even with what I call a gulf. I just
would prefer not to have it. I feel it, no matter how
much they seem to enjoy the course.

Edryce

--- Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote:
> I don't have a gulf between me and my students and I
> do grade. I am known
> to be a tough grader, too. So, in my experience
> likert scale grading
> doesn't create a gulf.
>
> Why do you think they create a gulf?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edryce Reynolds" <edryce@yahoo.com>
> To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 3:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies
>
>
> > This is why the use of grades is so embedded in
> our
> > systems - and why we are having such a difficult
> time
> > getting rid of them. As long as grading exists,
> there
> > will be a gulf between teacher and student.
> >
> > Edryce
> >
> > --- Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote:
> > > Evaluations are only valuable if someone reads
> them.
> > > "I passed" and "I Aced
> > > it!" have different connotations that don't
> require
> > > any further reading to
> > > understand the difference.
> > >
> > > To me a grading scale is simply a form of a
> Likert
> > > scale. I happen to
> > > teach at one university that only uses a 5 point
> > > scale ... No pluses or
> > > minues. Your suggestion would decrease me to
> a 2
> > > point scale (good enough
> > > or not good enough aka pass/fail). I want to be
> > > able to acknowledge the
> > > quality of my students performance. To praise
> them.
> > > To further
> > > differentiate my praise, I would like to have
> more
> > > than 5 points, not less.
> > >
> > > Finally, a lot of my students are on tuition
> > > reimbursement from their
> > > company. A- vs B makes a financial difference
> to
> > > some of them.
> > >
> > > Conna Condon
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
> > > To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 1:35 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: rusty rae
> > > [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
> > > >
> > > > The whole issue of grades is a part of the
> > > problem.
> > > > This makes education an extrinsically driven
> > > endeavor.
> > > > Why not use pass-fail.
> > > > A part of the criteria for the pass fail is
> > > that the teacher must not
> > > > only give pass and fail but write an
> evaluation of
> > > a student's
> > > > performance.
> > > > Surely that would be more valuable than a
> > > simple letter grade.
> > > >
> > > > rusty rae
> > > > thegraduate@centurytel.net
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> > http://personals.yahoo.com
> >
> >


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]

Like Peter Drucker wrote, lets start with the end in mind. What
we really want is for students to learn the material and be able to
apply it to the real world. Additionally, it would be nice if they were
involved in the learning process to a certain extent -- that is that
they were accountable for their own learning, not because they have to
be, but because they like to learn. A good teacher brings that out of
students. However, if they are more focused on getting a grade and what
they have to do to get a grade than on performing in class then there is
a disconnect. If students are more interested in what they have to do to
earn the grade than in the actual learning then the is taking them away
from what the end result, learning, should be. For another perspective
on this see the book "Punished by rewards". Pass/Fail takes that
pressure off the student and puts the focus back on learning where it
should be. -rr

From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]

Are you saying that a written evaluation of a student's performance is
less valuable than a letter or numerical grade? It seems to me that the
written evaluation of a student's performance is much more valuable than
just a single letter or numerical grade. If you really want to praise
your students and differentiate performance, there is no better way than
a written evaluation that allows you to be rather specific about areas
for praise. As for students that are receiving tuition reimbursement
from their organizations, again, the issue regarding the level of
reimbursement is based on performance, and again, while it may take a
little education of the corporate community, a personal evaluation would
be well suited to this task. -rusty rae

-----Original Message-----

Evaluations are only valuable if someone reads them. "I passed" and "I
Aced it!" have different connotations that don't require any further
reading to understand the difference.

To me a grading scale is simply a form of a Likert scale. I happen to
teach at one university that only uses a 5 point scale ... No pluses or
minuses. Your suggestion would decrease me to a 2 point scale (good
enough
or not good enough aka pass/fail). I want to be able to acknowledge the
quality of my students performance. To praise them. To further
differentiate my praise, I would like to have more than 5 points, not
less.

Finally, a lot of my students are on tuition reimbursement from their
company. A- vs. B makes a financial difference to some of them.

Conna Condon

Edryce--

I would support that position by citing the emerging research on
cognitive evaluation theory. Specifically, there is evidence that, when
we provide extrinsic rewards for behaviors that had previously been
intrinsically motivated, intrinsic motivation decreases and overall
performance suffers. For a discussion of the theory, see almost any
current OB text or the following:

Deci, Edward L. (1975). Intrinsic Motivation. New York: Plenum Press.
Deci, Edward L., & Ryan, R.M. (1985). Intrinsic Motivation and
Self-Determination in Human Behavior. New York: Plenum Press.

Deci's work has been attacked on the basis of methodological
considerations but so has virtually all other work that does not conform
with current paradigms. And, brother, if he's right, we are going to
have to completely rethink how we manage our organizations!

Furthermore, I believe that the same phenomenon has been observed by
researchers in the field of adult learning, though I am not so familiar
with that literature.

Ruth

Edryce Reynolds wrote:
>
> Well, this will take some explaining! I call it a
> "gulf" because I like for the "facilitating" aspect of
> learning to be in effect when I teach. I believe, and
> I have read studies that support my belief, that as
> long as I retain the power to give a grade, I cannot
> get the kind of involvement from students that I want.
> In spite of themselves, they will (probably) do what
> they think will get the best grade. To me, that is a
> "gulf."
>
> I realize that we can develop good relationships with
> our students, even with what I call a gulf. I just
> would prefer not to have it. I feel it, no matter how
> much they seem to enjoy the course.
>
> Edryce
>
> --- Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote:
> > I don't have a gulf between me and my students and I
> > do grade. I am known
> > to be a tough grader, too. So, in my experience
> > likert scale grading
> > doesn't create a gulf.
> >
> > Why do you think they create a gulf?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Edryce Reynolds" <edryce@yahoo.com>
> > To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 3:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies
> >
> >
> > > This is why the use of grades is so embedded in
> > our
> > > systems - and why we are having such a difficult
> > time
> > > getting rid of them. As long as grading exists,
> > there
> > > will be a gulf between teacher and student.
> > >
> > > Edryce
> > >
> > > --- Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote:
> > > > Evaluations are only valuable if someone reads
> > them.
> > > > "I passed" and "I Aced
> > > > it!" have different connotations that don't
> > require
> > > > any further reading to
> > > > understand the difference.
> > > >
> > > > To me a grading scale is simply a form of a
> > Likert
> > > > scale. I happen to
> > > > teach at one university that only uses a 5 point
> > > > scale ... No pluses or
> > > > minues. Your suggestion would decrease me to
> > a 2
> > > > point scale (good enough
> > > > or not good enough aka pass/fail). I want to be
> > > > able to acknowledge the
> > > > quality of my students performance. To praise
> > them.
> > > > To further
> > > > differentiate my praise, I would like to have
> > more
> > > > than 5 points, not less.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, a lot of my students are on tuition
> > > > reimbursement from their
> > > > company. A- vs B makes a financial difference
> > to
> > > > some of them.
> > > >
> > > > Conna Condon
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
> > > > To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 1:35 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > From: rusty rae
> > > > [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
> > > > >
> > > > > The whole issue of grades is a part of the
> > > > problem.
> > > > > This makes education an extrinsically driven
> > > > endeavor.
> > > > > Why not use pass-fail.
> > > > > A part of the criteria for the pass fail is
> > > > that the teacher must not
> > > > > only give pass and fail but write an
> > evaluation of
> > > > a student's
> > > > > performance.
> > > > > Surely that would be more valuable than a
> > > > simple letter grade.
> > > > >
> > > > > rusty rae
> > > > > thegraduate@centurytel.net
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> > > http://personals.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> http://personals.yahoo.com

Ruth, Edryce, and others following the "grading" thread,

I haven't read all of the recent work on cognitive evaluation theory, but I
have a slightly different take away from that work (in particular, see a
recent meta-analysis in Psyc Bull, including responses).

I think the key for whether people's intrinsic motivation is undermined is
how the extrinsic rewards are perceived. If they are perceived as
controlling (and thus robbing the individual of self-determination), then
intrinsic motivation will be reduced. Thus, as long as an individual still
feels self-determined, external rewards aren't harmful.

Applying this to grading (which is somewhat of a jump because grades are
more "evaluation" than "reward"), here is my approach to reducing tension
regarding grading. I do my best to make explicit what students need to do
in order to get particular grades on each assignment. I offer these as
choices that the students can make of their own free will and accord. I
try to provide timely and accurate feedback, all the while respecting all
students regardless of the choices that they make about how much
time/effort to devote to their work.

I belief that this approach is consistent with what some other posters have
suggested (particularly the concept of procedural justice), and I find that
it helps to diminish most frustration with the grading
process. Nevertheless, there are always a couple of students who attempt
to influence me to raise their grade. I don't see this is a bad thing;
after all, its in their best interests to get the best grade possible. I
imagine they decide, "why not try out some of the influence tactics he
taught us in class." I seldom change the grade, but I always let that
student know how effectively s/he used influence tactics. Its just one
more opportunity to provide feedback!

Just a few thoughts...

Ken

At 08:38 AM 10/15/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Edryce--
>
>I would support that position by citing the emerging research on
>cognitive evaluation theory. Specifically, there is evidence that, when
>we provide extrinsic rewards for behaviors that had previously been
>intrinsically motivated, intrinsic motivation decreases and overall
>performance suffers. For a discussion of the theory, see almost any
>current OB text or the following:
>
>Deci, Edward L. (1975). Intrinsic Motivation. New York: Plenum Press.
>Deci, Edward L., & Ryan, R.M. (1985). Intrinsic Motivation and
>Self-Determination in Human Behavior. New York: Plenum Press.


~~~~~~~~~

Kenneth G. Brown, Ph.D.
Dept of Management and Organizations
108 Pappajohn Business Building
University of Iowa
Iowa City, IA 52242
PH: 319.335.3812 FX: 319.335.1956
HTTP://www.biz.uiowa.edu/faculty/kbrown
~~~~~~~~~

Ken,

Certainly your description of what I would call
"benevolent" grading systems would ameliorate the
"gulf" I feel exists between teachers and students.
As long as I MUST grade, of course I should and
hopefully DO make my criteria clear, leave room for
independent student activity, etc. That makes for a
more willing student, and probably makes for excellent
results in the students learning what we WANT them to
learn.

I particularly like the concept that as long as
external rewards are not perceived as robbing an
individual of self-determination, they will not be
harmful.

Edryce

--- "Kenneth G. Brown" <kenneth-g-brown@uiowa.edu>
wrote:
> Ruth, Edryce, and others following the "grading"
> thread,
>
> I haven't read all of the recent work on cognitive
> evaluation theory, but I
> have a slightly different take away from that work
> (in particular, see a
> recent meta-analysis in Psyc Bull, including
> responses).
>
> I think the key for whether people's intrinsic
> motivation is undermined is
> how the extrinsic rewards are perceived. If they
> are perceived as
> controlling (and thus robbing the individual of
> self-determination), then
> intrinsic motivation will be reduced. Thus, as long
> as an individual still
> feels self-determined, external rewards aren't
> harmful.
>
> Applying this to grading (which is somewhat of a
> jump because grades are
> more "evaluation" than "reward"), here is my
> approach to reducing tension
> regarding grading. I do my best to make explicit
> what students need to do
> in order to get particular grades on each
> assignment. I offer these as
> choices that the students can make of their own free
> will and accord. I
> try to provide timely and accurate feedback, all the
> while respecting all
> students regardless of the choices that they make
> about how much
> time/effort to devote to their work.
>
> I belief that this approach is consistent with what
> some other posters have
> suggested (particularly the concept of procedural
> justice), and I find that
> it helps to diminish most frustration with the
> grading
> process. Nevertheless, there are always a couple of
> students who attempt
> to influence me to raise their grade. I don't see
> this is a bad thing;
> after all, its in their best interests to get the
> best grade possible. I
> imagine they decide, "why not try out some of the
> influence tactics he
> taught us in class." I seldom change the grade, but
> I always let that
> student know how effectively s/he used influence
> tactics. Its just one
> more opportunity to provide feedback!
>
> Just a few thoughts...
>
> Ken
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Charles,

I agree with you up to a point - that point being that 'what we really want
is for students to learn the material and be able to apply it to the real
world'. In my experience this causes more problems for students, especially
when (a) other subjects they are taking has made them wary of any marking
system that doesn't take the universities/markers needs into account first
and foremost (especially important at under-graduate level), (b) when
'apply(ing) it to the real world' isn't as important as 'learn(ing) the
material' when it comes to final examinations, and (c) when the material
doesn't apply to their 'real world'.

I know how hard it is to cover a skills or knowledge set that is applicable
to every student when the best we can do is take the traditional case study
approach - this is what happened in XYZ situation, how does it apply to
yours? If a student comes back and says 'it doesn't apply' then we can't
mark them as wrong - but that isn't what we're trying to do is it?

Big problem that I don't believe has yet been adequately addressed or
overcome. Our solution is to teach principles and not practices. At least
that way everyone can identify applications to their situations.

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] Teaching Methodologies


> From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
>
> Like Peter Drucker wrote, lets start with the end in mind. What
> we really want is for students to learn the material and be able to
> apply it to the real world. Additionally, it would be nice if they were
> involved in the learning process to a certain extent -- that is that
> <<SNIP>>

From Professor Mike Baxter but on his home e-mail address (e-mail direct
to
m.baxter@rave.ac.uk)

Having been looking into this issue of intrinsic Vs extrinsic motivation
for research into a 'learn about e-learning' web site which I am
building, I thought it might be useful for know that Deci and Ryan now
have their own web site on 'self determination theory' including their
review of the controversy that external motivators decrease intrinsic
motivation and hence reduce performance. The debate appears to be
continuing!

Mike Baxter


"Ruth H. Axelrod" wrote:

> Edryce--
>
> I would support that position by citing the emerging research on
> cognitive evaluation theory. Specifically, there is evidence that,
> when we provide extrinsic rewards for behaviors that had previously
> been intrinsically motivated, intrinsic motivation decreases and
> overall performance suffers. For a discussion of the theory, see
> almost any current OB text or the following:
>
> Deci, Edward L. (1975). Intrinsic Motivation. New York: Plenum Press.
> Deci, Edward L., & Ryan, R.M. (1985). Intrinsic Motivation and
> Self-Determination in Human Behavior. New York: Plenum Press.
>
> Deci's work has been attacked on the basis of methodological
> considerations but so has virtually all other work that does not
> conform with current paradigms. And, brother, if he's right, we are
> going to have to completely rethink how we manage our organizations!
>
> Furthermore, I believe that the same phenomenon has been observed by
> researchers in the field of adult learning, though I am not so
> familiar with that literature.
>
> Ruth
>

Alfie Kohn wrote something like "Punished by Rewards"
which is along the same lines.

Edryce

--- Charles Wankel <cxx@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> From Professor Mike Baxter but on his home e-mail
> address (e-mail direct
> to
> m.baxter@rave.ac.uk)
>
> Having been looking into this issue of intrinsic Vs
> extrinsic motivation
> for research into a 'learn about e-learning' web
> site which I am
> building, I thought it might be useful for know that
> Deci and Ryan now
> have their own web site on 'self determination
> theory' including their
> review of the controversy that external motivators
> decrease intrinsic
> motivation and hence reduce performance. The debate
> appears to be
> continuing!
>
> Mike Baxter



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Hi - if I may add with feedback
Hands on training in life skills are important as to aiding the
employability skills of all.
A good designed training programme taken from the training needs analysis
integrated with interactive and presentational methods (presentations made
by the individual ) help to make training/education enjoyable and fun while
learning.
These umbrella methods are not tools in their own rights - but integrated
and designed with the tools utilising the group work in discussions, role
plays, projects games etc elicit what knowledge is available within the
group and individuals - to gaps that need to be addressed by the
facilitator/trainer/lecturer therefore everyone learning together.

Also combined together with placements if required for those who have not
had the experience of working in the management environment the assessor can
also get evidence of those experiences which meet the standards of the
occupational accredited qualification.

Utilising the required areas in today's environment and also changing
environments of new technologies
Areas that need to be addressed are:

Implementation of Plans to meet customer requirements
Maintaining Health & Safety
Ensuring products and services meet quality requirements

Improve working activities
Recommend improvement to organisational plans
Developing oneself to improve performance
Manage time and resources to meet objectives

Develop working relationships
Develop trust and support of colleagues and team members
Develop the trust and support of line management
Minimise interpersonal conflict

Provide information to support decision making
Manage the use of physical resources
Manage the use of financial resources

Select personnel for activities
Develop teams and Individuals to enhance performance
Facilitate Meetings
Respond to poor performance in your team

Promote Energy Efficiency
Identify Improvements to energy efficiency

Provide advice and support for the development and implementation of Quality

Implement Quality Systems
Monitor compliance with Quality Systems
Carry out quality audits
Contribute to planning and preparation
Co-ordinate the running of projects
Contribute to project closure

Plan Monitor and support Auditing Environmental Performance
Report Environmental Performance to Interested parties
Identify Implement and Monitor Action to Improve Environmental Performance

And also to include all the new technologies which are available to aid the
learning process with one line learning and assessment.

Of course a good designed programme on all of the above are required.
And or assessment activities with the performance on the job to ensure good
rigorous assessment practice - with continual feedback and review of
progress to aid the progression of achievement for each individual learner .
Well designed to cope with a candidate with special needs a candidate who is
a normal achiever and one who is a fast tracker.

Regards Iris






-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Rutherford
[SMTP:robnphil@ozemail.com.au]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 10:29 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: Teaching Methodologies

Charles,

I agree with you up to a point - that point being
that 'what we really want
is for students to learn the material and be able to
apply it to the real
world'. In my experience this causes more problems
for students, especially
when (a) other subjects they are taking has made
them wary of any marking
system that doesn't take the universities/markers
needs into account first
and foremost (especially important at under-graduate
level), (b) when
'apply(ing) it to the real world' isn't as important
as 'learn(ing) the
material' when it comes to final examinations, and
(c) when the material
doesn't apply to their 'real world'.

I know how hard it is to cover a skills or knowledge
set that is applicable
to every student when the best we can do is take
the traditional case study
approach - this is what happened in XYZ situation,
how does it apply to
yours? If a student comes back and says 'it doesn't
apply' then we can't
mark them as wrong - but that isn't what we're
trying to do is it?

Big problem that I don't believe has yet been
adequately addressed or
overcome. Our solution is to teach principles and
not practices. At least
that way everyone can identify applications to their
situations.

Phil Rutherford


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Wankel" <cxx@bellatlantic.net>
To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] Teaching Methodologies


> From: rusty rae
[mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
>
> Like Peter Drucker wrote, lets start with the end
in mind. What
> we really want is for students to learn the
material and be able to
> apply it to the real world. Additionally, it would
be nice if they were
> involved in the learning process to a certain
extent -- that is that
> <<SNIP>>

________________________________________________________________________
Scottish Enterprise Network
http://www.scottish-enterprise.com

Please note that from 25 September 2001, the Scottish Enterprise
operation currently located at 120 Bothwell Street, Glasgow
will be operating from
150 Broomielaw
Atlantic Quay
Glasgow
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Tel: +44 (0) 141 248 2700.
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It may contain legally privileged information. The contents are not to
be disclosed to anyone other than the addressee. Unauthorised recipients
are requested to preserve this confidentiality and to advise the sender
immediately of any error in transmission.

From: Alice Macpherson [mailto:Alice.Macpherson@kwantlen.ca]

In our institution we classify this as:

Mastery or No Credit Granted

and it is one of three possible ways that a course assessment can be
developed. Once approved by our Education Council that becomes the way
the course is assessed for everyone until it is officially revised for
assessment in another way.

The other two are "Experience" and "Letter Grade"

I describe it to my students as
"You've got it or you don't have it yet" with the implication that, like
real life, you can still "get it".

best regards

Alice Macpherson
TQ ID MA
Kwantlen University College

Life Long Learning includes everyone, all the time.
--------------------------------------------------------
From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]

Like Peter Drucker wrote, lets start with the end in mind. What we
really want is for students to learn the material and be able to apply
it to the real world. Additionally, it would be nice if they were
involved in the learning process to a certain extent -- that is that
they were accountable for their own learning, not because they have to
be, but because they like to learn. A good teacher brings that out of
students. However, if they are more focused on getting a grade and what
they have to do to get a grade than on performing in class then there is
a disconnect. If students are more interested in what they have to do to
earn the grade than in the actual learning then the is taking them away
from what the end result, learning, should be. For another perspective
on this see the book "Punished by rewards". Pass/Fail takes that
pressure off the student and puts the focus back on learning where it
should be. -rr

From: Robert Bacal [mailto:ceo@work911.com]

> Alfie Kohn wrote something like "Punished by Rewards"
> which is along the same lines.

Yes. Kohn sent the notion into the pop psych. arena, but Deci et al
are the preferred sources, I think. Kohn's work is basically derived
from the work of "real psychologists" and Kohn is basically a writer
and public speaker.

Robert Bacal
rbacal@escape.ca



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