Discussion: View Thread

Yesterday, a consultant told me that he doesn't work with middle or
lower levels of management. He only works with "leadership". I think
he's confusing a function of management (leading, planning, oragnizing
and controlling) with a management level (the executive level). I
occasionally speak in college classes and my work involves interviewing
other consultants. This confusion about "leadership" is pervasive.

With the recent focus on the need for organizations to change, for the
need for leadership in that change, and for that change to be driven
from the top (executive levels) down, we've begun interchanging
"executive level" and "leadership". This is unfortunate and is causing a
variety of unfortunate myths, including:
- leadership occurs only at the top
- lower levels are "managing"
- leadership is completely different from management
- "managing" is a rather mundane set of activities (we consultants are
much more
drawn to the exciting world of "leadership")
- leadership studies seem to focus only on executives, while calling
themselves
leadership studies
- there's ongoing confusion about terms such as leadership, management
(is leadership part of management?), management development, managerial
devleopment, executive development, etc.

I certainly agree for the need for organizational change, etc. However,
the management-change literature is becoming evangelical, and the term
"leadership" is becoming god-like in nature.

There. I'm off my soapbox.

I am drawn to reply to your letter by saying that this confusion has
existed for years in many corporate environments where middle management
reports to top management who draws all the decisions to itself. I like
to call it, "This is the house that Jack built management."

Personally, I don't think this condition will change. Layers of
management may be stripped to the bare essentials, but major decisions
will be made by top management after managers, committees, et ux have
reviewed the information to death. Its a fact of life that the higher
you go, the more apt you are to be fired, and the more suspicious you
become of the data you are presented.

I think the situation might be summed up by a statement made by a former
President of Dow Corning after I retired and when I was consulting for
them. I recommended a course of action which they eagerly embarked on. I
stated to the President that I had suggested the same course of action
when I worked directly for them. He answered by saying, "We don't listen
to anyone who is on the payroll."

Good luck in effecting change. It would be very worthwhile although it
would negate much of the need for outside consultants.

Carter McNamara wrote:
>
> Yesterday, a consultant told me that he doesn't work with middle or
> lower levels of management. He only works with "leadership". I think
> he's confusing a function of management (leading, planning, oragnizing
> and controlling) with a management level (the executive level).

--
Dick Montgomery, General Manager
21st Century Co-operative
Our Mission - "Help You Increase Sales"
http://www.chemmgrs.com

Part of our job as consultants is to encourage and support the learning
organization and continuous learning for those who are considered learning
(at all levels). We need to keep getting the words out about those issues
you raised.

Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
Consultant and Professor

I would like to put my 2 cents in.

Long ago, I read that "

Managers do thing right, leaders do the right things.

Ed Kaplan
President
Personnel Dynamics, Inc.
879 Sumac Rd
Highland Park, IL 60035
Phone 847-831-1259
Fax 847-831-3259
Email Kaplan@PersonnelDynamics.com
Web www.PersonnelDynamics.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Montgomery
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 10:08 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: "leading" vs "managing" -- dead horse again...

I am drawn to reply to your letter by saying that this confusion has
existed for years in many corporate environments where middle management
reports to top management who draws all the decisions to itself. I like
to call it, "This is the house that Jack built management."

Personally, I don't think this condition will change. Layers of
management may be stripped to the bare essentials, but major decisions
will be made by top management after managers, committees, et ux have
reviewed the information to death. Its a fact of life that the higher
you go, the more apt you are to be fired, and the more suspicious you
become of the data you are presented.

I think the situation might be summed up by a statement made by a former
President of Dow Corning after I retired and when I was consulting for
them. I recommended a course of action which they eagerly embarked on. I
stated to the President that I had suggested the same course of action
when I worked directly for them. He answered by saying, "We don't listen
to anyone who is on the payroll."

Good luck in effecting change. It would be very worthwhile although it
would negate much of the need for outside consultants.

Carter McNamara wrote:
>
> Yesterday, a consultant told me that he doesn't work with middle or
> lower levels of management. He only works with "leadership". I think
> he's confusing a function of management (leading, planning, oragnizing
> and controlling) with a management level (the executive level).

--
Dick Montgomery, General Manager
21st Century Co-operative
Our Mission - "Help You Increase Sales"
http://www.chemmgrs.com

Dear Carter, Lou Pondy once said that until you knew what you were willing
to profess, you did not deserve the title of Professor. I guess you qualify.

Best, Kim

At 08:59 AM 4/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Yesterday, a consultant told me that he doesn't work with middle or
>lower levels of management. He only works with "leadership". I think
>he's confusing a function of management (leading, planning, oragnizing
>and controlling) with a management level (the executive level). I
>occasionally speak in college classes and my work involves interviewing
>other consultants. This confusion about "leadership" is pervasive.
>
>With the recent focus on the need for organizations to change, for the
>need for leadership in that change, and for that change to be driven
>from the top (executive levels) down, we've begun interchanging
>"executive level" and "leadership". This is unfortunate and is causing a
>variety of unfortunate myths, including:
>- leadership occurs only at the top
>- lower levels are "managing"
>- leadership is completely different from management
>- "managing" is a rather mundane set of activities (we consultants are
>much more
> drawn to the exciting world of "leadership")
>- leadership studies seem to focus only on executives, while calling
>themselves
> leadership studies
>- there's ongoing confusion about terms such as leadership, management
>(is leadership part of management?), management development, managerial
>devleopment, executive development, etc.
>
>I certainly agree for the need for organizational change, etc. However,
>the management-change literature is becoming evangelical, and the term
>"leadership" is becoming god-like in nature.
>
>There. I'm off my soapbox.
>
--------------------------------
Kim Boal
College of Business Administration
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409
(806) 742-2150
KimBoal@ttu.edu

Here are my 2 cents on this subject:

Managerial skills are the ones that enable you to get the products or services out the door to your customers, today.

Leadership skills are the ones that ensure that you will have a product or service and an organization to deliver them to your customer, tomorrow.

I never want to promote someone into management that does have leadership skills. At the same time, I never want to promote someone into a leadership position that does not have managerial skills.


Frank Shipper, Ph.D.
Professor of Management
Perdue School of Business
Salisbury State University
Salisbury, MD 21801
Phone (410) 543-6333
FAX (410) 546-6208
E-mail: fmshipper@ssu.edu
Home Page: http://perdue.ssu.edu/~fmshippe/welcome.htm


>>> Edward Kaplan <kaplan@PERSONNELDYNAMICS.COM> 04/17 2:27 PM >>>
I would like to put my 2 cents in.

Long ago, I read that "

Managers do thing right, leaders do the right things.

Ed Kaplan
President
Personnel Dynamics, Inc.
879 Sumac Rd
Highland Park, IL 60035
Phone 847-831-1259
Fax 847-831-3259
Email Kaplan@PersonnelDynamics.com
Web www.PersonnelDynamics.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Richard Montgomery
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 10:08 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: "leading" vs "managing" -- dead horse again...

I am drawn to reply to your letter by saying that this confusion has
existed for years in many corporate environments where middle management
reports to top management who draws all the decisions to itself. I like
to call it, "This is the house that Jack built management."

Personally, I don't think this condition will change. Layers of
management may be stripped to the bare essentials, but major decisions
will be made by top management after managers, committees, et ux have
reviewed the information to death. Its a fact of life that the higher
you go, the more apt you are to be fired, and the more suspicious you
become of the data you are presented.

I think the situation might be summed up by a statement made by a former
President of Dow Corning after I retired and when I was consulting for
them. I recommended a course of action which they eagerly embarked on. I
stated to the President that I had suggested the same course of action
when I worked directly for them. He answered by saying, "We don't listen
to anyone who is on the payroll."

Good luck in effecting change. It would be very worthwhile although it
would negate much of the need for outside consultants.

Carter McNamara wrote:
>
> Yesterday, a consultant told me that he doesn't work with middle or
> lower levels of management. He only works with "leadership". I think
> he's confusing a function of management (leading, planning, oragnizing
> and controlling) with a management level (the executive level).

--
Dick Montgomery, General Manager
21st Century Co-operative
Our Mission - "Help You Increase Sales"
http://www.chemmgrs.com