Discussion: View Thread

Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Fred Nickols wrote RE: Factors Affecting Change Management
[...]I learned that it means "So many men, so many minds." That leads
>me to ask Kim this question: Has anyone ever suggested that the line is
>sexist?

The sexist version is "So many men, so little time."

++++++++++++Notices:+++++++++++++++++
1) Pls discontinue sending mail to jxr@mba.com
2) Telephone area code has changed.

Jack Ring, 32712 N. 70th St., Snottsdale, AZ 85262-7143
480-488-4615, Fax)480-488-4616, Cell) 602.369.4615
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.

Jack wrote,

>Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Fred Nickols wrote RE: Factors Affecting Change Management
>[...]I learned that it means "So many men, so many minds."

I think what Fred translates as "minds" shoukld be "opinions"

>That leads
>>me to ask Kim this question: Has anyone ever suggested that the line is
>>sexist?

I guess the original was using "men" in the (certainly sexist to us,
today)) "inclusive" sense where "man", in Latin "homo", means "human
being" or "person", but its primary meaning is males.
>
>The sexist version is "So many men, so little time."

>Jack Ring, 32712 N. 70th St., Snottsdale, AZ 85262-7143
>480-488-4615, Fax)480-488-4616, Cell) 602.369.4615
>Work like you don't need the money.
>Love like you've never been hurt.
>Dance like nobody's watching.


The origin of this is Susanna Shaw, *Women in the John" which is a
collection of graffiti from what Americans call women's "bathrooms"
(Carolyn Beam Associates, SF, distrib by Two Continents Pub Group, NY,
1978.) It is great fun and you will find lots of things in it that are
now almost clich???s but were very fresh at the time (eg "Only New York
is real: all the reast is done with mirrors", "A woman w/o a man is
like a fish w/o a bicycle").

Jack, I love your tag line.

Alastair


"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."
Leroy "Satchel" Paige

Dr Alastair S. Gunn
Department of Philosophy
University of Waikato
Private Bag
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph 64 7 8562889 X8441
Fax 64 7 8384047
Email alastair@waikato.ac.nz

Qualia Consultants, Applied Ethics
PO Box 13085
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/Fax 64 7 8563073
Email qualia99@hotmail.com





______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Alastair wrote:
I guess the original was using "men" in the (certainly sexist to us,
today) "inclusive" sense where "man", in Latin "homo", means "human
being" or "person", but its primary meaning is males.

The original quote (from Terence's play Phormio) only involved decisions by
male characters so the grammar should have only referred to men.

Best regards,
Charlie Wankel
listmaster mg-ed-dv
wankelc@stjohns.edu

Dear Alastair, your translation is the one I had in mind, when I ended my
email inquiry with it.
Given, that folks who don't know me, usually think I am a woman, or ask who
is kimberly when I sign my full name (kimberly), I guess there is plently
of old fashion sexism to go around.

Regards, Kim

At 01:15 AM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Jack wrote,
>
>>Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Fred Nickols wrote RE: Factors Affecting Change Management
>>[...]I learned that it means "So many men, so many minds."
>
>I think what Fred translates as "minds" shoukld be "opinions"
>
>>That leads
>>>me to ask Kim this question: Has anyone ever suggested that the line is
>>>sexist?
>
>I guess the original was using "men" in the (certainly sexist to us,
>today)) "inclusive" sense where "man", in Latin "homo", means "human
>being" or "person", but its primary meaning is males.
>>
>>The sexist version is "So many men, so little time."
>
>>Jack Ring, 32712 N. 70th St., Snottsdale, AZ 85262-7143
>>480-488-4615, Fax)480-488-4616, Cell) 602.369.4615
>>Work like you don't need the money.
>>Love like you've never been hurt.
>>Dance like nobody's watching.
>
>
>The origin of this is Susanna Shaw, *Women in the John" which is a
>collection of graffiti from what Americans call women's "bathrooms"
>(Carolyn Beam Associates, SF, distrib by Two Continents Pub Group, NY,
>1978.) It is great fun and you will find lots of things in it that are
>now almost clichés but were very fresh at the time (eg "Only New York
>is real: all the reast is done with mirrors", "A woman w/o a man is
>like a fish w/o a bicycle").
>
>Jack, I love your tag line.
>
>Alastair
>
>
>"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."
>Leroy "Satchel" Paige
>
>Dr Alastair S. Gunn
>Department of Philosophy
>University of Waikato
>Private Bag
>Hamilton, New Zealand
>Ph 64 7 8562889 X8441
>Fax 64 7 8384047
>Email alastair@waikato.ac.nz
>
>Qualia Consultants, Applied Ethics
>PO Box 13085
>Hamilton, New Zealand
>Ph/Fax 64 7 8563073
>Email qualia99@hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
--------------------------------
Kim Boal
College of Business Administration
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409
(806) 742-2150
KimBoal@ttu.edu

Jeanne Hill ask if the line, "tot homines...." is sexist. If one genders
"homines" then clearly the answer is yes. If one thinks of it as refering
to "mankind" (I realize that too is sexist Jeanne), i.e., "all people" then
perhaps not. In any case, I "read in to" the many comments about the
sexist nature of the quote, a larger concern all issues relating to gender.
One of my colleagues, Linda Krefting, who is very well versused in the
literature on sociobiology informs me that the brain has not changed
essentially in over 100,000 years. Further that many things relating to
gender differences, that bother us today, were "hardwired" into the brain
back then. Thus, even those who are greatly concerned about issues that
evolve from treating men and women differently (if not inappropriately
differently), often have a hard time recognizing these differences and
responding to them. There appears to be conflicts between biology and our
"emerging" values. Coming to grips with these differences "genders" alot
of heated debate. It is beyond my level of competence to resolve these
issues. All I can do, rightly or wrongly, is to treat everyone one as
individuals. If, on occasion, that requires me to take into account their
gender, then I guess I will.

Regards from a "boy named Sue," ie Kimberly

At 02:17 PM 4/23/99 +0000, you wrote:
>In response to Jack Ring's message "Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Fred Nickols wrote
RE: Factors Affecting Change Management
>[...]I learned that it means "So many men, so many minds." That leads
>>me to ask Kim this question: Has anyone ever suggested that the line is
>>sexist?
>
>The sexist version is "So many men, so little time." "
>
>Why not have a sense of humour/sense of perspective ( as per an
>Animal Crackers cartoon I've kept over the years) - shows a bird
>sitting on a telephone wire:
>'So many cars, so little time...'
>
>
>Jeanne Hill
>Senior Lecturer
>Department of International Business
>University of Central Lancashire
>Preston, UK
>PR1 2HE
>Tel: +44 (0)1772 894686
>FAX: +44 (0)1772 892906
>
--------------------------------
Kim Boal
College of Business Administration
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409
(806) 742-2150
KimBoal@ttu.edu

> Why not have a sense of humour/sense of perspective ( as per an
> Animal Crackers cartoon I've kept over the years) - shows a bird
> sitting on a telephone wire:
> 'So many cars, so little time...'
>
The version I saw was two seagulls flying over a beach were sand couldn't be
seen,as there were wall-to-wall people sunbathing.
One seagull turns to another and says "takes all the skill out of it,
doesn't it"?

Kevin Fields
Lecturer: Tourism & Hospitality Management
Birmingham College of Food, Tourism
& Creative Studies

In response to Jack Ring's message "Sat, 17 Apr 1999 Fred Nickols wrote RE: Factors Affecting Change Management
[...]I learned that it means "So many men, so many minds." That leads
>me to ask Kim this question: Has anyone ever suggested that the line is
>sexist?

The sexist version is "So many men, so little time." "

Why not have a sense of humour/sense of perspective ( as per an
Animal Crackers cartoon I've kept over the years) - shows a bird
sitting on a telephone wire:
'So many cars, so little time...'


Jeanne Hill
Senior Lecturer
Department of International Business
University of Central Lancashire
Preston, UK
PR1 2HE
Tel: +44 (0)1772 894686
FAX: +44 (0)1772 892906

> > Why not have a sense of humour/sense of perspective ( as per an
> > Animal Crackers cartoon I've kept over the years) - shows a bird
> > sitting on a telephone wire:
> > 'So many cars, so little time...'
> >
> The version I saw was two seagulls flying over a beach were
> sand couldn't be
> seen,as there were wall-to-wall people sunbathing.
> One seagull turns to another and says "takes all the skill out of it,
> doesn't it"?
>
> Kevin Fields
> Lecturer: Tourism & Hospitality Management
> Birmingham College of Food, Tourism
> & Creative Studies

What do you guys do up there in Birmingham? Didn't I just see another post
from a Senior Lecturer in Birmingham? Sounds like you're having way too much
fun to be "professional" (grin).

Oh hang on a second, Tom Lodge was from Birmingham, right? Now it all makes
sense.

I hear the NorteAmericanos going -- they have fun in Alabama??? No Martha,
there's a Birmingham in England and it doesn't sound quite like that
neither.

I'm sorry, I was just getting tired of all this correctness, and
correctiveness. Maybe it's the exam season -- or maybe it's hormones.

There are studies on humor -- see works by Jane Webster on how having fun
seems to improve retention and learning -- but if we need studies to tell us
that humor or fun is good, we're just not getting it.

Mine is a single vote but here it is placed -- I vote we move on.

Narayan Pant
Department of Business Policy
National University of Singapore

> There are studies on humor -- see works by Jane Webster on how having fun
> seems to improve retention and learning -- but if we need studies to tell us
> that humor or fun is good, we're just not getting it.

Actually, there is a cognitive movement that suggests that it is bizarre
imagery that aids in memory encoding and retrieval with regards to memory.

cheers,


Eric S. Berghoff
Univ. of Baltimore, student, M.S.
Div. of Applied Psychology and Quantitative Methods

======================================================
"Oh brave new world that has such people in it."
-Aldous Huxley
======================================================