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Decision Making thoughts...

  • 1.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 12-17-2002 18:15
    Hi, William:

    I share your sentiment -- I'm not working at an academic institution either, but enjoy being a part of this list to see what the topics of discussion are, as well as to continue keeping part of myself in the academic world.

    Couple of thoughts/questions:

    - Originally, I was going to suggest that you define the types of decisions you're going to focus on, but then considered that many (or most) decisions are simply about defining the decision (or problem), looking for insight into the decision (data, opinions, etc.), considering the options (and considering who to involve), considering the effects of the decision (both intended and unintended), and then hedging your bets and making the call. The process for discovering insights will be important.
    - My own perspective is that the type of decision isn't as important, as knowing the questions to consider, or having a good model which shows different considerations to explore. E.g., "What's the impact on people?" What's the impact on process? Impact on Technology? Impact on the marketplace? Impact on the business? etc. -- this will then drive some of the acumen you need to develop in your people, or at least give them resources (e.g., impact on people = HR/OD, impact on technology= IT, impact on business/marketplace = biz acumen, etc.)
    - There are a number of "decision making" courses out on the market. Most, I've found, are tied to "problem solving". I've seen several of these -- unless it's an intuitive model, with a reasonable number of steps, it's not going to get a lot of traction.

    I wish I had more time. Good luck!

    Best regards,
    JIM

    --------------------------------------------
    James Howard
    Global Leadership & Organization Development
    Disney Consumer Products
    818.569.7744
    james.howard@disney.com


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Automatic digest processor [mailto:LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU]
    Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:44 PM
    To: Recipients of MG-ED-DV digests
    Subject: MG-ED-DV Digest - 15 Dec 2002 to 16 Dec 2002 (#2002-262)


    There is one message totalling 54 lines in this issue.

    Topics of the day:

    1. Executive Decision Making Training?

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:10:45 -0500
    From: "Weech, William A" <WeechWA@state.gov>
    Subject: Executive Decision Making Training?

    I have often felt that I don't really belong on this list, since most list
    members appear to be academics and I am not. However, I now have challenge
    that I know many list members will be well-qualified to advise me on. My
    organization is thinking about creating a course in executive decision
    making. I'd be interested in hearing about the experiences of others who
    have been involved in anything similar. I'll post a summary of the comments
    I receive to the list, if there is sufficient interest.

    Some background may be in order. The idea for this seminar came from a
    review of our competency model and our training curriculum. Our competency
    model says that we want leaders with good decision-making skills but our
    curriculum does not have a course that directly addresses this competency.
    We notice that some of the organizations we benchmark ourselves against DO
    have courses in executive decision making. We have not yet asked any real
    live executives in our organization what they might find useful in this
    area. If this project moves forward, however, we will certainly will do some
    organization-specific needs assessment before we design any program.

    My questions for those of you who been involved in similar projects include
    the following:
    * What were the objectives of your executive decision making training
    program?
    * How long was your executive decision making training program?
    * What models, tools, content, or activities did you cover in the
    training program?
    * Some organizations appear to offer decision making for executives
    and problem solving for everybody else. What's the difference? Does it make
    sense to limit a decision making course to executives only? Why or why not?
    * What else do you think I should know before I pursue a project to
    design and deliver a course in decision making for actual executives?

    Just to be clear - if we do design and deliver this course, it will be for
    federal executives - NOT for graduate students in organizational behavior or
    management science!

    Thanks in advance for any information or ideas you care to share.

    William A. Weech (WeechWA@state.gov)
    Leadership and Management School
    Foreign Service Institute
    Intranet: http://fsiweb.fsi.state.gov
    Telephone: (703) 302-7198
    > This e-mail is UNCLASSIFIED based on definitions provided in Executive
    > Order 12958.
    >

    ------------------------------

    End of MG-ED-DV Digest - 15 Dec 2002 to 16 Dec 2002 (#2002-262)
    ***************************************************************


  • 2.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 12-19-2002 22:22
    From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]


    I share the belonging sentiment as well. Since I am adjunct academic, I
    don't feel accepted by the academics all that much either. :) However,
    I
    am also a change management consultant, so I do have some ideas on your
    topic.

    I especially appreciate Howard's paragraph on the depth and breadth of
    impact questions asked. One approach I am certified in calls these the
    "domains of change." What is the ripple affect, management and
    operational
    stakeholders, and are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater for
    impacts to: Organization, process, facilities, data, applications, or
    technology.

    This has to be addressed concurrently with the strategic management 7S
    question set to insure that a change (decisions are about deciding to
    change) is in alignment with the corporate strategies.

    " My own perspective is that the type of decision isn't as important, as
    knowing the questions to consider, or having a good model which shows
    different considerations to explore. E.g., "What's the impact on
    people?"
    What's the impact on process? Impact on Technology? Impact on the
    marketplace? Impact on the business? etc. -- this will then drive some
    of
    the acumen you need to develop in your people, or at least give them
    resources (e.g., impact on people = HR/OD, impact on technology= IT,
    impact
    on business/marketplace = biz acumen, etc.)"


  • 3.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 12-20-2002 14:13
    Dear Colleagues, Conna Condon, a frequent contributor to this web site, has
    indicated that she to, like some other non-academics on this web site feel
    like they are outsiders. As a card carrying academic, let me suggest that
    non-academics play an important role in the journey of knowledge mission
    that is part of AOM's mission.

    Let us put the knowledge spectrum on a four stage continuum from: 1) the
    generation of new knowledge; 2) the testing/justification of new knowledge;
    3) the learning & dissemination of knowledge; and 4) the application of
    knowledge. Now as a card carrying academic, I have been trained in the
    first two, I spend a great deal of time on the third (but claim no
    expertise), and very little time on the fourth. Let me assume that folks
    like Conna, and other non-academics on the web, spend most of their time in
    categories 3 & 4. Unlike me, who can survive by being good in categories 1
    & 2, and passable in category 3, I assume that folks like Conna must be
    good in Category 3 &/or 4 for their consulting businesses to
    survive. While I was raised to believe that knowledge was its own
    justification, clearly professional schools, like business schools, place a
    high premium on preparing people for practice. Thus, I do not feel that
    folks like Conna, who spend their time with practitioners, should feel like
    outsiders. They simply contribute to a different part of the knowledge
    spectrum.

    Regards, Kim Boal



    Conna At 10:21 PM 12/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:
    >From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]
    >
    >
    >I share the belonging sentiment as well. Since I am adjunct academic, I
    >don't feel accepted by the academics all that much either. :) However,
    >I
    >am also a change management consultant, so I do have some ideas on your
    >topic.
    >
    >I especially appreciate Howard's paragraph on the depth and breadth of
    >impact questions asked. One approach I am certified in calls these the
    >"domains of change." What is the ripple affect, management and
    >operational
    >stakeholders, and are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater for
    >impacts to: Organization, process, facilities, data, applications, or
    >technology.
    >
    >This has to be addressed concurrently with the strategic management 7S
    >question set to insure that a change (decisions are about deciding to
    >change) is in alignment with the corporate strategies.
    >
    >" My own perspective is that the type of decision isn't as important, as
    >knowing the questions to consider, or having a good model which shows
    >different considerations to explore. E.g., "What's the impact on
    >people?"
    >What's the impact on process? Impact on Technology? Impact on the
    >marketplace? Impact on the business? etc. -- this will then drive some
    >of
    >the acumen you need to develop in your people, or at least give them
    >resources (e.g., impact on people = HR/OD, impact on technology= IT,
    >impact
    >on business/marketplace = biz acumen, etc.)"

    --------------------------------
    Kim Boal
    College of Business Administration
    Texas Tech University
    Lubbock, TX 79409
    (806) 742-2150
    KimBoal@ttu.edu


  • 4.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 12-20-2002 16:11
    Colleagues,

    With due respect to Kim Boal, whose postings I highly regard, I must question her assumptions regarding who creates, tests, disseminates, and applies knowledge. Certainly academia has no special place in creating and testing knowledge. Dissemination is the most obvious fit in terms of those four categories.

    "Practitioners" develop, test, and apply knowledge.
    In the hard sciences, academics are often, but not always, true practitioners. I've taken many a science course in which the prof simply restated a text and offered no extra knowledge. And I've worked with others who developed and tested astonishing new theories, then applied them in very practical ways. Indeed, a lot of testing in science and engineering is application to real-world problems.
    In the business sciences, I'm more skeptical about professors being practitioners. Perhaps because I've never had academic training in business.

    On the other hand, managers, marketers, finance officers, and product developers in industry, government, education, and the arts constantly develop, test, and apply new theories, models. practices, and processes.
    If they don't develop from scratch, they modify, update, restate, and refocus ideas into new contexts and applications.
    A high percentage of business books, whether by academicians or others, are syntheses of interviews with practitioners and analysis of existing practices. The author may discover patterns and develop an integrating language, but the core knowledge base is what practitioners have already tried.
    Business text books rarely state new theories for practitioners to try out. They organize, summarize, and present existing knowledge.
    That which is new to many minds (e.g., systems theory in The Fifth Discipline) is almost always a new (and perhaps marvelous) presentation of concepts, tools, and methodologies that have been in use by practitioners for years.
    I don't know how to measure the reality, yet I suspect that 80% or more of new business ideas and models are written, taught, and promoted by non-academic practitioners, including consultants. They do all four steps: creating, testing, disseminating, and applying knowledge.

    So, Conna, I think that the odds are you have as much or more to offer this group as anyone else. And I hope practitioners of all backgrounds will continue to offer topics and share their knowledge.

    Best to all, and Happy Holidays!

    Gary
    ----------------------------
    Change will never, ever again
    be as slow as it is today.

    Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
    303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
    garyl@market-engineering.com


  • 5.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 12-22-2002 11:52
    Dear Colleagues, Gary is correct that practitioners are often the source of
    new theories. Academics have no priviledged position with respect to the
    creation of knowledge. Though we probably spend more time thinking about
    it. Practitioners clearly apply theories they and others
    develop. However, with due respect to Gary, rarely to they put these
    theories to any stringent test to assess their internal validity. Internal
    validity is concern with the question of whether or not X causes Y. To
    assess internal validity, one must show that: 1) X covaries with Y (i.e.,
    that high or low scores on X systematically, not due to chance, are related
    to high or low scores on Y. These scores may be in the same or opposite
    direction, but they should be consistently the same (direction and
    magnitude) across time & situations unless a third variable Z moderates the
    relationship between X & Y-effects the magnitude/direction of the
    covariation). 2) A second condition is that causes must precede effects,
    ie., a change in X must come before a change in Y_.3) Finally, to
    demonstrate internal validity, must one rule out alternative explanations,
    ie., that something else is causing a change in Y. Sometimes, two
    variables covary but the relationship is spurious in causal terms, eg.,
    height and weight. Few practitioners put their theory to such
    tests. Rather, in some causes they put them to the mimetic test, ie., if
    others are doing the same, that must be "proof" that the theory is
    true. Unfortunately, this is how many "fads" and "fashions" are
    born. Finally, many managers are not even aware of the theory they put in
    practice. For example, some might "espouse" a theory of "participative
    decision making" but "use" a theory of "autocratic decision making." Chris
    Argyris noted this difference between "espoused theories" and "theories in
    use."

    As an academic, one of my goals is to improve practice. Unfortunately,
    some practitioners think we live in an ivory tower and are not connected to
    the "real" world. I suggest that practitioners would be better off,if they
    used academics to "test" the theories they are using or contemplating
    using. Conna is right that a gulf often exist between academics and
    practioners. We would both be better off, as would the knowledge spectrum,
    if be cooperated with each other more. Each bringing to bear what they have
    to offer with respect to the creation, testing,dissemination, and practice
    of knowledge. As Kurt Lewin once said, nothing is more practical than a
    good theory. The development of good theories usually takes the
    cooperation of both academics and practioners.

    Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday season.

    Kim Boal

    At 02:10 PM 12/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
    >Colleagues,
    >
    >With due respect to Kim Boal, whose postings I highly regard, I must
    >question her assumptions regarding who creates, tests, disseminates, and
    >applies knowledge. Certainly academia has no special place in creating
    >and testing knowledge. Dissemination is the most obvious fit in terms of
    >those four categories.
    >
    >"Practitioners" develop, test, and apply knowledge.
    > In the hard sciences, academics are often, but not always, true
    > practitioners. I've taken many a science course in which the prof simply
    > restated a text and offered no extra knowledge. And I've worked with
    > others who developed and tested astonishing new theories, then applied
    > them in very practical ways. Indeed, a lot of testing in science and
    > engineering is application to real-world problems.
    > In the business sciences, I'm more skeptical about professors being
    > practitioners. Perhaps because I've never had academic training in business.
    >
    >On the other hand, managers, marketers, finance officers, and product
    >developers in industry, government, education, and the arts constantly
    >develop, test, and apply new theories, models. practices, and processes.
    > If they don't develop from scratch, they modify, update, restate, and
    > refocus ideas into new contexts and applications.
    > A high percentage of business books, whether by academicians or
    > others, are syntheses of interviews with practitioners and analysis of
    > existing practices. The author may discover patterns and develop an
    > integrating language, but the core knowledge base is what practitioners
    > have already tried.
    > Business text books rarely state new theories for practitioners to
    > try out. They organize, summarize, and present existing knowledge.
    > That which is new to many minds (e.g., systems theory in The Fifth
    > Discipline) is almost always a new (and perhaps marvelous) presentation
    > of concepts, tools, and methodologies that have been in use by
    > practitioners for years.
    > I don't know how to measure the reality, yet I suspect that 80% or
    > more of new business ideas and models are written, taught, and promoted
    > by non-academic practitioners, including consultants. They do all four
    > steps: creating, testing, disseminating, and applying knowledge.
    >
    >So, Conna, I think that the odds are you have as much or more to offer
    >this group as anyone else. And I hope practitioners of all backgrounds
    >will continue to offer topics and share their knowledge.
    >
    >Best to all, and Happy Holidays!
    >
    >Gary
    >----------------------------
    >Change will never, ever again
    >be as slow as it is today.
    >
    >Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
    >303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
    >garyl@market-engineering.com

    --------------------------------
    Kim Boal
    College of Business Administration
    Texas Tech University
    Lubbock, TX 79409
    (806) 742-2150
    KimBoal@ttu.edu


  • 6.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 12-23-2002 00:37
    Wasn't it J. M. Keynes who said (paraphrased):

    Every business person who claims to be a 'practical' person is in the throes of an
    outmoded theory.

    Cheers and happy holiday times, whether the holiday be Ramadan, Devali, Chanukah,
    Christmas, or Whatever. Especially Whatever. Let's all go celebrate Kwanza
    together.

    Jay

    Kim Boal wrote:

    > Dear Colleagues, Gary is correct that practitioners are often the source of
    > new theories. Academics have no priviledged position with respect to the
    > creation of knowledge. Though we probably spend more time thinking about
    > it. Practitioners clearly apply theories they and others
    > develop. However, with due respect to Gary, rarely to they put these
    > theories to any stringent test to assess their internal validity. Internal
    > validity is concern with the question of whether or not X causes Y. To
    > assess internal validity, one must show that: 1) X covaries with Y (i.e.,
    > that high or low scores on X systematically, not due to chance, are related
    > to high or low scores on Y. These scores may be in the same or opposite
    > direction, but they should be consistently the same (direction and
    > magnitude) across time & situations unless a third variable Z moderates the
    > relationship between X & Y-effects the magnitude/direction of the
    > covariation). 2) A second condition is that causes must precede effects,
    > ie., a change in X must come before a change in Y_.3) Finally, to
    > demonstrate internal validity, must one rule out alternative explanations,
    > ie., that something else is causing a change in Y. Sometimes, two
    > variables covary but the relationship is spurious in causal terms, eg.,
    > height and weight. Few practitioners put their theory to such
    > tests. Rather, in some causes they put them to the mimetic test, ie., if
    > others are doing the same, that must be "proof" that the theory is
    > true. Unfortunately, this is how many "fads" and "fashions" are
    > born. Finally, many managers are not even aware of the theory they put in
    > practice. For example, some might "espouse" a theory of "participative
    > decision making" but "use" a theory of "autocratic decision making." Chris
    > Argyris noted this difference between "espoused theories" and "theories in
    > use."
    >
    > As an academic, one of my goals is to improve practice. Unfortunately,
    > some practitioners think we live in an ivory tower and are not connected to
    > the "real" world. I suggest that practitioners would be better off,if they
    > used academics to "test" the theories they are using or contemplating
    > using. Conna is right that a gulf often exist between academics and
    > practioners. We would both be better off, as would the knowledge spectrum,
    > if be cooperated with each other more. Each bringing to bear what they have
    > to offer with respect to the creation, testing,dissemination, and practice
    > of knowledge. As Kurt Lewin once said, nothing is more practical than a
    > good theory. The development of good theories usually takes the
    > cooperation of both academics and practioners.
    >
    > Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday season.
    >
    > Kim Boal
    >
    > At 02:10 PM 12/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
    > >Colleagues,
    > >
    > >With due respect to Kim Boal, whose postings I highly regard, I must
    > >question her assumptions regarding who creates, tests, disseminates, and
    > >applies knowledge. Certainly academia has no special place in creating
    > >and testing knowledge. Dissemination is the most obvious fit in terms of
    > >those four categories.
    > >
    > >"Practitioners" develop, test, and apply knowledge.
    > > In the hard sciences, academics are often, but not always, true
    > > practitioners. I've taken many a science course in which the prof simply
    > > restated a text and offered no extra knowledge. And I've worked with
    > > others who developed and tested astonishing new theories, then applied
    > > them in very practical ways. Indeed, a lot of testing in science and
    > > engineering is application to real-world problems.
    > > In the business sciences, I'm more skeptical about professors being
    > > practitioners. Perhaps because I've never had academic training in business.
    > >
    > >On the other hand, managers, marketers, finance officers, and product
    > >developers in industry, government, education, and the arts constantly
    > >develop, test, and apply new theories, models. practices, and processes.
    > > If they don't develop from scratch, they modify, update, restate, and
    > > refocus ideas into new contexts and applications.
    > > A high percentage of business books, whether by academicians or
    > > others, are syntheses of interviews with practitioners and analysis of
    > > existing practices. The author may discover patterns and develop an
    > > integrating language, but the core knowledge base is what practitioners
    > > have already tried.
    > > Business text books rarely state new theories for practitioners to
    > > try out. They organize, summarize, and present existing knowledge.
    > > That which is new to many minds (e.g., systems theory in The Fifth
    > > Discipline) is almost always a new (and perhaps marvelous) presentation
    > > of concepts, tools, and methodologies that have been in use by
    > > practitioners for years.
    > > I don't know how to measure the reality, yet I suspect that 80% or
    > > more of new business ideas and models are written, taught, and promoted
    > > by non-academic practitioners, including consultants. They do all four
    > > steps: creating, testing, disseminating, and applying knowledge.
    > >
    > >So, Conna, I think that the odds are you have as much or more to offer
    > >this group as anyone else. And I hope practitioners of all backgrounds
    > >will continue to offer topics and share their knowledge.
    > >
    > >Best to all, and Happy Holidays!
    > >
    > >Gary
    > >----------------------------
    > >Change will never, ever again
    > >be as slow as it is today.
    > >
    > >Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
    > >303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
    > >garyl@market-engineering.com
    >
    > --------------------------------
    > Kim Boal
    > College of Business Administration
    > Texas Tech University
    > Lubbock, TX 79409
    > (806) 742-2150
    > KimBoal@ttu.edu

    --
    Jay Warner
    Principal Scientist
    Warner Consulting, Inc.
    4444 North Green Bay Road
    Racine, WI 53404-1216
    USA

    Ph: (262) 634-9100
    FAX: (262) 681-1133
    email: quality@a2q.com
    web: http://www.a2q.com

    The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?


  • 7.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 12-25-2002 05:43
    From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]

    Dear Kim and fellow members of the list,

    First and foremost, may I extend my appreciation to Kim for her warmth
    and
    inclusion. Your recommendation for collaboration impresses me. As a
    virtual educator (as well as practioner) project teams with diversity of
    experience and perspective typically produce the highest quality work.
    That
    observation may not yet be academically rigorous, but would certainly
    lead
    me to hypothesize that collaborative efforts between practioners and
    academics would increase the depth and breadth of skills brought to the
    study which may improve the quality of the results, which may or may not
    be
    due to causal reasons. :)

    My apologies for the delay in responding. This week has been dedicated
    to
    finals for 3 classes. My university prefers doctorally qualified (or in
    the
    final stages of qualification) faculty with strong practitioner
    backgrounds.
    We are not a research school, all of our courses are taught solely by
    such
    faculty. I have no assistants to do any of my teaching, but the fully
    qualified PhD's don't either. Our courses are highly interactive. I
    mention this because I had a couple of students email me (after grades,
    so
    the credibility is a little higher - not 100% butter-up) praising my
    classroom skills and requesting that I not move on to "administration."
    I
    didn't dare suggest to them that if I moved on it would likely be to
    focus
    on research at a research university.

    I was blessed to hear Dr. Bennis talk about this issue once at an
    Excellence
    in Education Conference. Having advanced out of the classroom he
    discovered
    that it was the classroom he loved - and he chose to return to the
    classroom. I have also been blessed at Academy sessions to hear both
    Dr.
    Drucker and Dr. Hersey recommend that all academics have practical
    experience, as they both did. Something of an internship - like grammar
    school teachers, or CPAs, or medical doctors..

    As a masters student myself (those many years ago) I recall the one
    course
    that my university attempted to have a non-practitioner teach. We were
    all
    mid-level managers at the time. He spoke from impractical theory. We
    laughed him out of the classroom. The school was very careful
    thereafter to
    make sure our program was taught by faculty that were both academics and
    practitioners. Unfortunately, that one faculty left a very bad taste in
    my
    experience for a purely academic approach. (Thanks for countering the
    taste, Kim - maybe he was an exception).

    I am torn. I am thoroughly enjoying the research process. I look
    forward
    to my testing phase in the new year (if the committee and school all
    sign
    off in time) and I hope I am open to the results going in any direction.
    But, I confess that I resist the time it takes me out of teaching or
    consulting to work on the research. On the other hand, I love the
    learning
    involved in researching.

    So, if I as a woman figured out how to have it all; can I as a
    life-learner
    figure out how to be a practitioner, teacher, and researcher all at the
    same
    time? I agree with Kim, I can't do it without the support of
    collaborating
    with other practitioners, teachers, and researchers. Maybe I'll just
    have
    to alternate. :) I do accept that this means I am choosing not to aim
    for
    the top research schools. That's ok. The P & P willing people are
    welcome
    to that arena. Ok, I confess. To be the best teacher I can be I have
    to
    consult and research. Otherwise my teaching becomes old, stale, out of
    date, and of lesser value.

    Wow! thanks all... I'm not sure I should send this after all of that
    self-realization. However, maybe the perspective might give others a
    chance
    to reflect on why they weight their activities - and realize that there
    is
    no one right weighting of activities.

    May 2003 bring all of us the balance of activities that give us the best
    feelings.

    Conna Condon
    PC Specialists
    Upper Iowa University
    Baker College
    Nova Southeastern University (SBE)


  • 8.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-06-2003 14:37
    Kim

    I suppose that the notion of generation of new knowledge you use implies
    that knowledge exists outside the minds of beings instead of within each
    mind... For me this notion that knowledge exists outside the minds of
    beings becomes a useful abstraction, like the notion that words have
    determined meanings. Assuming that the meaning you assign to the words I
    write corresponds to the meaning I assigned to the words because the words
    'have meanings' is a useful abstraction of what is going on ...though it
    hides what is in fact going on: I assign a meaning and you assign a
    meaning and we assumed that your meaning and mine correspond to each other
    because in principle we followed an established and determined code...

    What is outside the mind becomes just information or stimulus that lead
    the being to the generation of knowledge (or to its regeneration)... that
    is why I stated in a previous post how most of Knowledge work that I have
    observed becomes a different name for information work...

    Cordially,

    Esteban


    ------

    Dear Colleagues, Conna Condon, a frequent contributor to this web site,
    has
    indicated that she to, like some other non-academics on this web site feel
    like they are outsiders. As a card carrying academic, let me suggest that
    non-academics play an important role in the journey of knowledge mission
    that is part of AOM's mission.

    Let us put the knowledge spectrum on a four stage continuum from: 1) the
    generation of new knowledge; 2) the testing/justification of new
    knowledge;
    3) the learning & dissemination of knowledge; and 4) the application of
    knowledge. Now as a card carrying academic, I have been trained in the
    first two, I spend a great deal of time on the third (but claim no
    expertise), and very little time on the fourth. Let me assume that folks
    like Conna, and other non-academics on the web, spend most of their time
    in
    categories 3 & 4. Unlike me, who can survive by being good in categories
    1
    & 2, and passable in category 3, I assume that folks like Conna must be
    good in Category 3 &/or 4 for their consulting businesses to
    survive. While I was raised to believe that knowledge was its own
    justification, clearly professional schools, like business schools, place
    a
    high premium on preparing people for practice. Thus, I do not feel that
    folks like Conna, who spend their time with practitioners, should feel
    like
    outsiders. They simply contribute to a different part of the knowledge
    spectrum.

    Regards, Kim Boal



    Conna At 10:21 PM 12/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:
    >From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]
    >
    >
    >I share the belonging sentiment as well. Since I am adjunct academic, I
    >don't feel accepted by the academics all that much either. :) However,
    >I
    >am also a change management consultant, so I do have some ideas on your
    >topic.
    >
    >I especially appreciate Howard's paragraph on the depth and breadth of
    >impact questions asked. One approach I am certified in calls these the
    >"domains of change." What is the ripple affect, management and
    >operational
    >stakeholders, and are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater for
    >impacts to: Organization, process, facilities, data, applications, or
    >technology.
    >
    >This has to be addressed concurrently with the strategic management 7S
    >question set to insure that a change (decisions are about deciding to
    >change) is in alignment with the corporate strategies.
    >
    >" My own perspective is that the type of decision isn't as important, as
    >knowing the questions to consider, or having a good model which shows
    >different considerations to explore. E.g., "What's the impact on
    >people?"
    >What's the impact on process? Impact on Technology? Impact on the
    >marketplace? Impact on the business? etc. -- this will then drive some
    >of
    >the acumen you need to develop in your people, or at least give them
    >resources (e.g., impact on people = HR/OD, impact on technology= IT,
    >impact
    >on business/marketplace = biz acumen, etc.)"

    --------------------------------
    Kim Boal
    College of Business Administration
    Texas Tech University
    Lubbock, TX 79409
    (806) 742-2150
    KimBoal@ttu.edu


    ____________________________________________________________________________
    For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
    Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/


  • 9.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-06-2003 14:46
    I am in Estaban's school of thought about knowledge. It is eminently
    an OB topic, for do we not educate managers to appreciate the elegance
    of human behavior of people organized to do business? Knowledge written
    down is, as he says, a useful abstraction, as long as we do not keep
    the abstraction and throw out the knower with the proverbial bathwater.
    Is that not how we "strip" the knowledge from people as they exit the
    company. "Well, we don't have to pay Joe any more, but not to worry,
    we "captured" all his knowledge (have his notes and files)."

    David



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Esteban Trevino [mailto:esteban.trevino@neoris.com]
    Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 2:37 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] Decision Making thoughts...


    Kim

    I suppose that the notion of generation of new knowledge you use implies
    that knowledge exists outside the minds of beings instead of within each
    mind... For me this notion that knowledge exists outside the minds of
    beings becomes a useful abstraction, like the notion that words have
    determined meanings. Assuming that the meaning you assign to the words I
    write corresponds to the meaning I assigned to the words because the words
    'have meanings' is a useful abstraction of what is going on ...though it
    hides what is in fact going on: I assign a meaning and you assign a
    meaning and we assumed that your meaning and mine correspond to each other
    because in principle we followed an established and determined code...

    What is outside the mind becomes just information or stimulus that lead
    the being to the generation of knowledge (or to its regeneration)... that
    is why I stated in a previous post how most of Knowledge work that I have
    observed becomes a different name for information work...

    Cordially,

    Esteban


    ------

    Dear Colleagues, Conna Condon, a frequent contributor to this web site,
    has
    indicated that she to, like some other non-academics on this web site feel
    like they are outsiders. As a card carrying academic, let me suggest that
    non-academics play an important role in the journey of knowledge mission
    that is part of AOM's mission.

    Let us put the knowledge spectrum on a four stage continuum from: 1) the
    generation of new knowledge; 2) the testing/justification of new
    knowledge;
    3) the learning & dissemination of knowledge; and 4) the application of
    knowledge. Now as a card carrying academic, I have been trained in the
    first two, I spend a great deal of time on the third (but claim no
    expertise), and very little time on the fourth. Let me assume that folks
    like Conna, and other non-academics on the web, spend most of their time
    in
    categories 3 & 4. Unlike me, who can survive by being good in categories
    1
    & 2, and passable in category 3, I assume that folks like Conna must be
    good in Category 3 &/or 4 for their consulting businesses to
    survive. While I was raised to believe that knowledge was its own
    justification, clearly professional schools, like business schools, place
    a
    high premium on preparing people for practice. Thus, I do not feel that
    folks like Conna, who spend their time with practitioners, should feel
    like
    outsiders. They simply contribute to a different part of the knowledge
    spectrum.

    Regards, Kim Boal



    Conna At 10:21 PM 12/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:
    >From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]
    >
    >
    >I share the belonging sentiment as well. Since I am adjunct academic, I
    >don't feel accepted by the academics all that much either. :) However,
    >I
    >am also a change management consultant, so I do have some ideas on your
    >topic.
    >
    >I especially appreciate Howard's paragraph on the depth and breadth of
    >impact questions asked. One approach I am certified in calls these the
    >"domains of change." What is the ripple affect, management and
    >operational
    >stakeholders, and are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater for
    >impacts to: Organization, process, facilities, data, applications, or
    >technology.
    >
    >This has to be addressed concurrently with the strategic management 7S
    >question set to insure that a change (decisions are about deciding to
    >change) is in alignment with the corporate strategies.
    >
    >" My own perspective is that the type of decision isn't as important, as
    >knowing the questions to consider, or having a good model which shows
    >different considerations to explore. E.g., "What's the impact on
    >people?"
    >What's the impact on process? Impact on Technology? Impact on the
    >marketplace? Impact on the business? etc. -- this will then drive some
    >of
    >the acumen you need to develop in your people, or at least give them
    >resources (e.g., impact on people = HR/OD, impact on technology= IT,
    >impact
    >on business/marketplace = biz acumen, etc.)"

    --------------------------------
    Kim Boal
    College of Business Administration
    Texas Tech University
    Lubbock, TX 79409
    (806) 742-2150
    KimBoal@ttu.edu


    ____________________________________________________________________________
    For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
    Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/


  • 10.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-06-2003 14:58
    Dear Estaban, You might be interested in the following excerpt from a
    chapter in "Debating Organizations:..." (Blackwell).

    Kim

    In terms of the first argument, linguistic relativism maintains that the
    language of culture determines reality that its members see. As Hunt
    (1993) notes, "if the thesis of linguistic relativism were true, objective
    inquiry across cultures (languages) would indeed be problematic"
    (81). However, Steinfatt's (1989: 63) extensive review of the literature
    on linguistic relativism leads him to conclude, "the differences between
    languages are not to be found in what can be said, but what it is
    relatively easy to say" (italics in original).
    Postmodernists (e.g., Gergen and Whitney, 1996), and our counterpoint, argue
    that word meaning depends primarily on its contextual embedding or its
    social use within a material context. Meanings are determined through the
    historical development of specific language games (Mauws and Phillips,
    1995). Only through the rules and conventions established through social
    interaction is it possible to speak of the things that are in the world.
    Postmodernists (and our counterpoint) argue that since languages are
    representational they cannot perfectly capture the nature of that
    reality. However, we argue, a language's ability to represent can itself
    be improved even though it may not be perfected. This is the goal of
    construct validity. Furthermore, it is one thing to point out that our
    medium(s) of communication influence our perception of reality, and another
    to claim (as does our counterpoint) that the "medium is the message,"
    implying their is little if any correspondence between language and reality.
    We accept that specific letters and words used to label reality are
    arbitrary (e.g., that the English language uses the letters t, r, e, e, to
    identify a particular type of plant). This arbitrariness does not mean that
    there is not an object that exists in the world an object with some kind of
    non-discursive existence that humans understand discursively to be a
    "tree." If all humans were suddenly to vanish, a "tree," as we understand
    it by any language would cease to exist (i.e., the concept of "tree" that
    is a product of the imperfections of a language's system of representation
    would cease to exist). However, does anyone think that "trees" as objects
    would cease to exist? Could squirrels no longer run up and down them?
    To avoid the trap of solipsism, our counterpoint would seem to argue that
    there is a fundamental ontological difference between physical objects,
    such as trees, which are "directly observable," and what the
    counterpointers call "social objects," such as "organizations", which are
    not. The former being real, while the latter are merely reifications
    created by language. But this line of argument is incoherent because the
    concept of "direct observability" seems to imply that perceptions of
    physical objects are not filtered by language. Thus, physical objects can
    be perceived in an unmediated (non-discursive) way. But this view would be
    contrary to that held by many postmodernists (e.g., Lennon and Whitford,
    1994) who argue that, "all our interactions with reality are mediated by
    conceptual frameworks or discourses which themselves are historically and
    socially situated" (4).
    Thus, on what basis can a distinction be made between the effects of
    discourse and language on our perception of physical objects (i.e., objects
    with "thing like" properties) and what our counterpointers call social
    objects? If our perception of everything is discursively constructed, how
    can they even know that a tree is "thing like" and an organization is
    not? If language constructs the social world, it would seem to construct
    the physical world as well. If all reality is a "forest of signs," how can
    we apprehend "thing-like" objects without the mediation of language any
    more than what they call "social objects"? What is the ontological basis
    for claiming trees are thing-like and organizations are not?



    At 01:37 PM 1/6/2003 -0600, you wrote:
    >Kim
    >
    >I suppose that the notion of generation of new knowledge you use implies
    >that knowledge exists outside the minds of beings instead of within each
    >mind... For me this notion that knowledge exists outside the minds of
    >beings becomes a useful abstraction, like the notion that words have
    >determined meanings. Assuming that the meaning you assign to the words I
    >write corresponds to the meaning I assigned to the words because the words
    >'have meanings' is a useful abstraction of what is going on ...though it
    >hides what is in fact going on: I assign a meaning and you assign a
    >meaning and we assumed that your meaning and mine correspond to each other
    >because in principle we followed an established and determined code...
    >
    >What is outside the mind becomes just information or stimulus that lead
    >the being to the generation of knowledge (or to its regeneration)... that
    >is why I stated in a previous post how most of Knowledge work that I have
    >observed becomes a different name for information work...
    >
    >Cordially,
    >
    >Esteban
    >
    >
    >------
    >
    >Dear Colleagues, Conna Condon, a frequent contributor to this web site,
    >has
    >indicated that she to, like some other non-academics on this web site feel
    >like they are outsiders. As a card carrying academic, let me suggest that
    >non-academics play an important role in the journey of knowledge mission
    >that is part of AOM's mission.
    >
    >Let us put the knowledge spectrum on a four stage continuum from: 1) the
    >generation of new knowledge; 2) the testing/justification of new
    >knowledge;
    >3) the learning & dissemination of knowledge; and 4) the application of
    >knowledge. Now as a card carrying academic, I have been trained in the
    >first two, I spend a great deal of time on the third (but claim no
    >expertise), and very little time on the fourth. Let me assume that folks
    >like Conna, and other non-academics on the web, spend most of their time
    >in
    >categories 3 & 4. Unlike me, who can survive by being good in categories
    >1
    >& 2, and passable in category 3, I assume that folks like Conna must be
    >good in Category 3 &/or 4 for their consulting businesses to
    >survive. While I was raised to believe that knowledge was its own
    >justification, clearly professional schools, like business schools, place
    >a
    >high premium on preparing people for practice. Thus, I do not feel that
    >folks like Conna, who spend their time with practitioners, should feel
    >like
    >outsiders. They simply contribute to a different part of the knowledge
    >spectrum.
    >
    >Regards, Kim Boal
    >
    >
    >
    >Conna At 10:21 PM 12/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:
    > >From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]
    > >
    > >
    > >I share the belonging sentiment as well. Since I am adjunct academic, I
    > >don't feel accepted by the academics all that much either. :) However,
    > >I
    > >am also a change management consultant, so I do have some ideas on your
    > >topic.
    > >
    > >I especially appreciate Howard's paragraph on the depth and breadth of
    > >impact questions asked. One approach I am certified in calls these the
    > >"domains of change." What is the ripple affect, management and
    > >operational
    > >stakeholders, and are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater for
    > >impacts to: Organization, process, facilities, data, applications, or
    > >technology.
    > >
    > >This has to be addressed concurrently with the strategic management 7S
    > >question set to insure that a change (decisions are about deciding to
    > >change) is in alignment with the corporate strategies.
    > >
    > >" My own perspective is that the type of decision isn't as important, as
    > >knowing the questions to consider, or having a good model which shows
    > >different considerations to explore. E.g., "What's the impact on
    > >people?"
    > >What's the impact on process? Impact on Technology? Impact on the
    > >marketplace? Impact on the business? etc. -- this will then drive some
    > >of
    > >the acumen you need to develop in your people, or at least give them
    > >resources (e.g., impact on people = HR/OD, impact on technology= IT,
    > >impact
    > >on business/marketplace = biz acumen, etc.)"
    >
    >--------------------------------
    >Kim Boal
    >College of Business Administration
    >Texas Tech University
    >Lubbock, TX 79409
    >(806) 742-2150
    >KimBoal@ttu.edu
    >
    >
    >____________________________________________________________________________
    >For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
    >Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/

    --------------------------------
    Kim Boal
    College of Business Administration
    Texas Tech University
    Lubbock, TX 79409
    (806) 742-2150
    KimBoal@ttu.edu


  • 11.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-06-2003 15:00
    David,

    Ever wonder what lead to the need of 'explicit' KM... How about as a side
    effect of the fad of reengineering, which got rid of all those extra
    individuals that where not essential (which used to tacitly do KM but
    which organizations did not know what they did)?

    It seems that the businesses DID through out the knower with the proverbial bathwater, thinking they
    already had captured the knowledge required only to later realize that
    they need someone who understands and makes sense of what was captured (or
    regenerate what was lost)...

    Cordially,


    Esteban
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
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  • 12.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-06-2003 15:11
    Hmm, and we teach 1,000's of managers. So, did we teach them to think that way
    about explicit knowledge!? Inadvertently, perhaps, yes?

    David



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Esteban Trevino [mailto:esteban.trevino@neoris.com]
    Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:00 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] Decision Making thoughts...


    David,

    Ever wonder what lead to the need of 'explicit' KM... How about as a side
    effect of the fad of reengineering, which got rid of all those extra
    individuals that where not essential (which used to tacitly do KM but
    which organizations did not know what they did)?

    It seems that the businesses DID through out the knower with the proverbial bathwater, thinking they
    already had captured the knowledge required only to later realize that
    they need someone who understands and makes sense of what was captured (or
    regenerate what was lost)...

    Cordially,


    Esteban
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
    Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/


  • 13.  Knowledge Management: Teach the Process, The Facts Change

    Posted 01-07-2003 00:47
    In another thread on this listserver people have
    been talking about using case studies to teach.
    I teach the "capstone" course in international
    business at my university, and use case studies
    exclusively for teaching and evaluation. Many
    students complain, being trained in previous courses
    to memorise and regurgitate "facts", even though the
    facts we teach in university are well past their
    half-life of decay.
    Teaching techniques of analysis, drawing
    conclusions, and writing up results is useful (the fad
    phrase is Critical Thinking); being able to list and
    describe the 4, 7, or 12 P's of marketing is the tool
    to apply, not the end result. Yadda, yadda, yadda, I
    could go on. I wish I didn't have to spend the week or
    two teaching techniques, but no one else did.
    I would use simulations over case studies, but
    they are few and expensive.

    --- "Fearon, David (Management)"
    <Fearon@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote: > Hmm, and we teach
    1,000's of managers. So, did we
    > teach them to think that way
    > about explicit knowledge!? Inadvertently, perhaps,
    > yes?
    >
    > David
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Esteban Trevino
    > [mailto:esteban.trevino@neoris.com]
    > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:00 PM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] Decision Making thoughts...
    >
    >
    > David,
    >
    > Ever wonder what lead to the need of 'explicit'
    > KM... How about as a side
    > effect of the fad of reengineering, which got rid of
    > all those extra
    > individuals that where not essential (which used to
    > tacitly do KM but
    > which organizations did not know what they did)?
    >
    > It seems that the businesses DID through out the
    > knower with the proverbial bathwater, thinking they
    > already had captured the knowledge required only to
    > later realize that
    > they need someone who understands and makes sense of
    > what was captured (or
    > regenerate what was lost)...
    >
    > Cordially,
    >
    >
    > Esteban
    >
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    > For your protection, this e-mail message has been
    > scanned for viruses.
    > Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/

    =====
    Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
    Facutly of Business
    Auckland University of Technology
    Private Bag 1020
    Auckland 1020, New Zealand
    Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Everything you'll ever need on one web page
    from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
    http://uk.my.yahoo.com


  • 14.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-06-2003 16:04
    Esteban,

    This thread is all circular arguments. I'll make another that can be
    dismissed by starting with another definition.

    My problem, you see, is that I recognize an enormous "body of knowledge"
    built by the human race. I don't see it as a "body of information".
    What we've learned over the millennia has a particularly human flavor to
    it. People developed it, not machines. It isn't a neutral collection of
    information, but a reflection of the minds of our ancestors.
    But that's by my definition.

    If knowledge can only be held in human minds, then we only know information.

    By the views of Estaban and others:
    I know basic multiplication tables. No matter how often I use them or
    how well I understand multiplication, I just know information. When I write
    them down, I write down information, not knowledge.
    I know the Pythagorean Theorem. How? Because Pythagoras derived and
    proved it, then taught it to others. I can derive that theorem from basic
    geometry, but all of that is not knowledge because when I write it down it
    is information.
    I can't derive Einstein's Theory of Relativity, yet I "know" the basic
    equation (E=MCsquared). Einstein worked hard to develop that equation and
    was the only one in our human race who "knew" enough at the time to come up
    with it. But the equation I "know" is just information because it is out of
    Einstein's mind, in textbooks.

    It was knowledge, but only in Einstein's mind. Now it's just
    information.
    It goes into my head... it's knowledge. I tell you... it's information.
    I can't share my knowledge with you. Not on any subject. I can only
    share information.
    To say that information in my mind has some special quality that makes
    it knowledge and that that special quality disappears when I say it... It
    is far easier to conclude that, by your measures, I only know information.

    That's a paradigm problem for me. One I won't adopt.

    This thread has been most instructive in clarifying one more way in which I
    can misunderstand and be misunderstood.

    Best,

    Gary

    ----------------------------
    Change will never, ever again
    be as slow as it is today.

    Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
    303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
    garyl@market-engineering.com


  • 15.  Presentation Techniques, Reguests for Postal Mail Copies

    Posted 01-06-2003 16:11
    Two colleagues, I believe from India, requested copies
    of the guidelines for presentations be mailed. I seem
    to have lost these requests amoung the others. Could
    you please resend, and can you accomodate an email
    attachement or download from a website?
    Thx,
    Romie

    =====
    Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
    Facutly of Business
    Auckland University of Technology
    Private Bag 1020
    Auckland 1020, New Zealand
    Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Everything you'll ever need on one web page
    from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
    http://uk.my.yahoo.com


  • 16.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-06-2003 16:08
    Kim,

    Thank you, I did find the excerpt quite interesting, even though I also
    consider that it mixes things up... Then some may say I mix things up
    instead of presenting them in a clear an concise way...

    I follow an absolute notion of reality which curiously includes a relative
    notion... thus the absolute meaning for a word depends on the relative
    meaning associated to it by the beings who use it... The literal meaning
    only serves as a useful clue as to what a given term may mean but the
    absolute meaning depends on the being... Of course this may create
    irresolvable conflicts between beings, especially when beings understand
    different things from a given word... Which is the right meaning? Well it
    all depends on the point of view: are we seeking to understand that was
    meant? Are we seeking to understand what was perceived? Are we seeking to
    validate and ensure the correspondence of what was meant and what was
    perceived? The absolute meaning exists, is absolute and also is
    relative... Have you ever visited a different place and found that a word
    you use means something quite offensive to the locals?

    The physical object we know to exists are independent of whether we
    distinguish them though our distinctions enable us to better appreciate
    what exists... In fact our distinctions may limit and distort what we can
    appreciate exists or expand and enhance it... To me there exists snow,
    though to the Eskimos and some other cultures there are different kinds of
    snow and they have words for each... I imagine it is the same with other
    arrangements of things. For instance our body is composed of individual
    organism that collaborate and keep us alive, organizations are composed of
    individuals that collaborate and keep the business alive and ecosystems
    are composed of individual things that collaborate and keep the system
    alive... Still some organisms, like cancerous cells, have their own
    agendas that can lead to the system demise...

    In any event the assumptions one uses may creates all sort of distortions
    that hinder a clear understanding, while also facilitating getting a
    particular notion, we need be vigilant as to what is going on. Having an
    espoused theory that differs from the theory in action only mixes things
    up, complicates a clear understanding of things and hinders effective
    communication, still I understand that many prefer this kind of deceptive
    contradiction instead of the facts to provide a tilted field to 'play'
    games in... Model I communication dominates instead of model II (see the
    work of Chris Agrys and Donal Shone- the reflective practitioner)...

    Maximizing the veracity of information may expose 'unfair' conducts we
    would rather remain unknown...

    Cordially,

    Esteban


    ____________________________________________________________________________
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  • 17.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-07-2003 21:07
    This differentiation reminds me of growing up on sailboats.

    There is an object on a sailboat that is often made of twisted nylon fibers.
    When it lies on the deck (or elsewhere) not being used it is called a rope
    When it is pulled to move the sails or otherwsie in use it is called a line

    Same object - different labels.

    What purpose does it serve to label something information during one
    condition and knowledge during another condition?

    Conna

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Gary Lundquist" <garyl@market-engineering.com>
    To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:04 PM
    Subject: Re: Decision Making thoughts...


    > Esteban,
    >
    > This thread is all circular arguments. I'll make another that can be
    > dismissed by starting with another definition.
    >
    > My problem, you see, is that I recognize an enormous "body of knowledge"
    > built by the human race. I don't see it as a "body of information".
    > What we've learned over the millennia has a particularly human flavor
    to
    > it. People developed it, not machines. It isn't a neutral collection of
    > information, but a reflection of the minds of our ancestors.
    > But that's by my definition.
    >
    > If knowledge can only be held in human minds, then we only know
    information.
    >
    > By the views of Estaban and others:
    > I know basic multiplication tables. No matter how often I use them or
    > how well I understand multiplication, I just know information. When I
    write
    > them down, I write down information, not knowledge.
    > I know the Pythagorean Theorem. How? Because Pythagoras derived and
    > proved it, then taught it to others. I can derive that theorem from basic
    > geometry, but all of that is not knowledge because when I write it down it
    > is information.
    > I can't derive Einstein's Theory of Relativity, yet I "know" the basic
    > equation (E=MCsquared). Einstein worked hard to develop that equation and
    > was the only one in our human race who "knew" enough at the time to come
    up
    > with it. But the equation I "know" is just information because it is out
    of
    > Einstein's mind, in textbooks.
    >
    > It was knowledge, but only in Einstein's mind. Now it's just
    > information.
    > It goes into my head... it's knowledge. I tell you... it's
    information.
    > I can't share my knowledge with you. Not on any subject. I can only
    > share information.
    > To say that information in my mind has some special quality that makes
    > it knowledge and that that special quality disappears when I say it... It
    > is far easier to conclude that, by your measures, I only know information.
    >
    > That's a paradigm problem for me. One I won't adopt.
    >
    > This thread has been most instructive in clarifying one more way in which
    I
    > can misunderstand and be misunderstood.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Gary
    >
    > ----------------------------
    > Change will never, ever again
    > be as slow as it is today.
    >
    > Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
    > 303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
    > garyl@market-engineering.com
    >


  • 18.  Ropes and Lines: Re: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 02:18
    I see great value in calling the twisted fibres on a
    boat deck ropes when not in use and lines when in use.
    Probably saves time and lives at sea. My late
    Experimental Psycholgy professor, Ralph Richardson at
    the University of Arkansas, taught me in a past life,
    in the '60s, something that I have never forgotten: "A
    fact that has not been interpreted is useless."

    In my management courses, I speak of converting
    information to knowledge by analysing and interpreting
    the information.

    Regards,
    Romie
    --- Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote: >
    This differentiation reminds me of growing up on
    > sailboats.
    >
    > There is an object on a sailboat that is often made
    > of twisted nylon fibers.
    > When it lies on the deck (or elsewhere) not being
    > used it is called a rope
    > When it is pulled to move the sails or otherwsie in
    > use it is called a line
    >
    > Same object - different labels.
    >
    > What purpose does it serve to label something
    > information during one
    > condition and knowledge during another condition?
    >
    > Conna
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Gary Lundquist"
    > <garyl@market-engineering.com>
    > To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:04 PM
    > Subject: Re: Decision Making thoughts...
    >
    >
    > > Esteban,
    > >
    > > This thread is all circular arguments. I'll make
    > another that can be
    > > dismissed by starting with another definition.
    > >
    > > My problem, you see, is that I recognize an
    > enormous "body of knowledge"
    > > built by the human race. I don't see it as a "body
    > of information".
    > > What we've learned over the millennia has a
    > particularly human flavor
    > to
    > > it. People developed it, not machines. It isn't
    > a neutral collection of
    > > information, but a reflection of the minds of our
    > ancestors.
    > > But that's by my definition.
    > >
    > > If knowledge can only be held in human minds, then
    > we only know
    > information.
    > >
    > > By the views of Estaban and others:
    > > I know basic multiplication tables. No matter
    > how often I use them or
    > > how well I understand multiplication, I just know
    > information. When I
    > write
    > > them down, I write down information, not
    > knowledge.
    > > I know the Pythagorean Theorem. How? Because
    > Pythagoras derived and
    > > proved it, then taught it to others. I can derive
    > that theorem from basic
    > > geometry, but all of that is not knowledge because
    > when I write it down it
    > > is information.
    > > I can't derive Einstein's Theory of
    > Relativity, yet I "know" the basic
    > > equation (E=MCsquared). Einstein worked hard to
    > develop that equation and
    > > was the only one in our human race who "knew"
    > enough at the time to come
    > up
    > > with it. But the equation I "know" is just
    > information because it is out
    > of
    > > Einstein's mind, in textbooks.
    > >
    > > It was knowledge, but only in Einstein's mind.
    > Now it's just
    > > information.
    > > It goes into my head... it's knowledge. I
    > tell you... it's
    > information.
    > > I can't share my knowledge with you. Not on
    > any subject. I can only
    > > share information.
    > > To say that information in my mind has some
    > special quality that makes
    > > it knowledge and that that special quality
    > disappears when I say it... It
    > > is far easier to conclude that, by your measures,
    > I only know information.
    > >
    > > That's a paradigm problem for me. One I won't
    > adopt.
    > >
    > > This thread has been most instructive in
    > clarifying one more way in which
    > I
    > > can misunderstand and be misunderstood.
    > >
    > > Best,
    > >
    > > Gary
    > >
    > > ----------------------------
    > > Change will never, ever again
    > > be as slow as it is today.
    > >
    > > Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
    > > 303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
    > > garyl@market-engineering.com
    > >

    =====
    Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
    Facutly of Business
    Auckland University of Technology
    Private Bag 1020
    Auckland 1020, New Zealand
    Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629

    __________________________________________________
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    Everything you'll ever need on one web page
    from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
    http://uk.my.yahoo.com


  • 19.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-07-2003 22:33
    Conna,

    Using your analogy... If we cut the rope (information) nothing immediate
    happens but when we cut a line (knowledge) we loose some control...

    The purpose of having different labels for an object based on its use
    (purpose) serves to better distinguish it and have more insight... Though
    to the 'uninitiated' there may be little difference ... I see snow so
    rarely that I could care less to distinguish its subtle differences,
    though if my life depended on it I would certainly see the value of
    knowing the differences...

    As a useful abstraction I can agree that knowledge exists within books,
    though to say that knowledge actually exists in books as a reality to
    grasp instead of a useful abstraction seems to hide the fact that the
    books only serves as a stimulus to the mind to help generate (regenerate)
    the knowledge... books are unless without the mind knowing how to decipher
    and convert the stimulus into useful knowledge. To hold that the knowledge
    some how actually exists within the physical seems rather strange to me.
    If that where the case we should be able to know and correctly interpret
    what cultures knew from what they left behind, but we know very little of
    what they meant without the proper decoders or translators. Educators as
    experts hold the role of helping learners to experience something in a way
    that will ease the process of learning. In theory the educators configure
    their presentation as required by the particular learner though must often
    educators simply present the material and expect the learner to figure it
    out. Holding that educators present knowledge instead of just stimulating
    students in a way that would lead and facilitate the production of
    knowledge and insight seem to distract from what is going on in the
    interactions...

    As was mentioned before by others the purpose of an education goes past
    the presentation of past recipes and their memorization into sharing
    usefull skill that serve to confront, problems, discover solutions and
    expand what individuals know.

    Cordially,

    Esteban




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  • 20.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 12:10
    Conna and Esteban,
    Once again, thank you for your insights, which often inspire.

    Both of your analogies help clarify this issue for me. Obviously, there
    is a difference between a rope and a line...determined by its use.
    Likewise for information and knowledge. There is more to this than just
    semantics, or a repackaged label.

    Then there is the analogy of the cultural archaeologist (my term for
    your description). If a future archaeologist were to come upon a
    repository of current information (book, disk, or whatever format),
    would s/he not be in the same situation as you describe ("we should be
    able to know and correctly interpret what cultures knew from what they
    left behind, but we know very little of what they meant without the
    proper decoders or translators.")?

    The tools (words in this case) we use today become the artifacts for
    future generations. How we used these tools would be conjecture for the
    archaeologist. S/he would have to make assumptions about the context in
    which the tools were used. No doubt, this might be an educated guess,
    and perhaps be quite accurate. But it would definitely lack certitude.
    How I and an Eskimo might use the word "snow" has already been
    described.

    The dynamic nature of "knowledge" stands in sharp contrast to the static
    nature of "information". It comes from a lived experience. It is not a
    rope, it is a line. As an educator/trainer I find it difficult to say
    that I impart "knowledge". What is knowledge from my experience becomes
    information to others.






    Using your analogy... If we cut the rope (information) nothing immediate
    happens but when we cut a line (knowledge) we loose some control...

    The purpose of having different labels for an object based on its use
    (purpose) serves to better distinguish it and have more insight...
    <snip>

    As a useful abstraction I can agree that knowledge exists within books,
    though to say that knowledge actually exists in books as a reality to
    grasp instead of a useful abstraction seems to hide the fact that the
    books only serves as a stimulus to the mind to help generate
    (regenerate) the knowledge... books are unless without the mind knowing
    how to decipher and convert the stimulus into useful knowledge. To hold
    that the knowledge some how actually exists within the physical seems
    rather strange to me. If that where the case we should be able to know
    and correctly interpret what cultures knew from what they left behind,
    but we know very little of what they meant without the proper decoders
    or translators. Educators as experts hold the role of helping learners
    to experience something in a way that will ease the process of learning.
    In theory the educators configure their presentation as required by the
    particular learner though must often educators simply present the
    material and expect the learner to figure it out. Holding that educators
    present knowledge instead of just stimulating students in a way that
    would lead and facilitate the production of knowledge and insight seem
    to distract from what is going on in the interactions...
    <snip>
    Esteban


  • 21.  Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 12:20
    Esteban said:

    "Using your analogy... If we cut the rope (information) nothing immediate
    happens but when we cut a line (knowledge) we loose some control...

    The purpose of having different labels for an object based on its use
    (purpose) serves to better distinguish it and have more insight... Though
    to the 'uninitiated' there may be little difference ... I see snow so
    rarely that I could care less to distinguish its subtle differences,
    though if my life depended on it I would certainly see the value of
    knowing the differences..."

    Conna replies:

    Thank you! This makes total sense to me. It is a matter of the impact on
    the listener of the connotation and denotations of the word.

    As a skier and scuba diver I do understand why a skier might have many ways
    of saying snow and a scuba diver could care less.

    Thanks for putting it this way.

    Taking this back to my so-called knowledge-base

    So long as the data within the database is not effectively accessed it is
    strictly data or information.
    When it is effectively accessed to produce a desired result - e.g. the
    technician finds the solution as a result of inputting the diagnostic and it
    has sufficient clarity to be implemented - then it changes from information
    to knowledge. It is in use.