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  • 1.  Manager(manager(manager))

    Posted 11-11-1999 12:21
    [JR] The most corrosive thing about this Leadership vs. Manager talk is
    that the either-or connotation of "vs." forestalls discovery and hope in
    thousands of human beings.

    [JR] Let me try to explain the tremendous damage that is being done.

    [JR] In order to not be any more personal than necessary I have left off
    the author indentifications in the following because I want to focus as
    much as possible on what is said rather than who said it or how it was
    said.

    >As Capowski says, management is from the
    >head, leadership from the heart.

    [JR] Interesting personal viewpoint on the limits of management but saying
    it doth not make it reality.

    >Management is a transaction (i.e., you do the work and I'll pay you.)

    [JR] Interesting personal viewpoint on the limits of management but saying
    it doth not make it reality.

    >I would argue that what make a good leader is someone who can motivate the
    >followers toward making the necessary committment to the change. A good
    >leader is someone who can make a follower "believe" in the change.

    [JR] Seems true. And true of good managers, as well. This is not a
    differentiator that defines two classes.

    > Our belief that management (it's traditional
    >definition) can be benevolent and effective is hogwash.

    [JR] Interesting personal viewpoint (belief is a very appropriate word) but
    saying it doth not make it reality.

    >Entrepreneurial leaders cannot be managers!

    [JR] Oh yeah! Wanna compete? People tell me I do both everyday.

    >My experience is that purging the
    >word "management" from our lexicon is the only way to focus on leadership and
    >follow-ship. Again, lead by logical necessity and be a student when ably led.

    [JR] Ah, the shell casing for the Silver Bullet. Now if only the powder
    wasn't wet.

    >In the words of General Norman Schwartzkof :
    >You manage organizations, but you lead people!

    [JR] Yes, and he personally strove to do both, in the right proportion at
    all times.

    >The point is, leadership by example, leadership by wandering
    >around and just communicating with the guys in the trenches, is what
    >separates leaders from managers.

    [JR] Be careful about personalizing behaviors. Consider if you would agree
    with yourself if saying "-- is what separates leadership from
    administrative behavior.

    >Interesting discussion. The debate concerning the similarities and
    >differences between leadership and management is not a new one.

    [JR] Not new at all. But I am not debating the difference. I maintain
    that leadership is a proper subset of managerial behavior, as is
    administration. In fact, leadership must be a subset else the inevitable
    result of leadership without the other balancing factors of management
    appears -- managerless leadership is what generates a cult.

    [JR] This does not claim that all persons with the title or role of
    managers are leaders. I agree that it is highly important to recognize
    that a given manager may not be a leader. But I think it is incorrect to
    pose the notion that these are different jobs, roles or people. Zaleznik
    could just as well have said, "Managers who perform only the administrative
    aspect of their job enforce rules and procedures whereas when they perform
    the leadership aspect they are concerned with 'What should we be doing'
    etc. etc. etc."

    [JR] There is a strange phenom called Possibilities. I have observed in
    several instances that once a manager who does not exhibit leadership
    behaviors discovers that it is possible for him/her to do so, some (though
    by no means all) proceed to acquire excellent leadership abilities.

    [JR] The most corrosive thing about this Leadership vs. Manager talk is
    that the either-or connotation forestalls discovery and hope in thousands
    of human beings. Just what outcome are you trying to achieve? "Freedom
    to" for them or a dependency on you?
    .



    Jack Ring
    Innovation Management
    32712 N. 70th St., Snottsdale, AZ 85262-7143
    Office) 480-488-4615, Cell) 602.369.4615, Fax) 480-488-4616
    Where all think alike, no one thinks very much. (Walter Lippman)


  • 2.  Manager(manager(manager))

    Posted 11-11-1999 13:08
    [JR] The most corrosive thing about this Leadership vs. Manager talk is
    that the either-or connotation of "vs." forestalls discovery and hope in
    thousands of human beings.

    I find very little corrosive about this current thread. Certainly one can
    argue that the "vs." indicates an either /or scenario that "forestalls
    discovery". However in academia at least many make a career out of
    dichotomizing phenomena. I don't agree with the characterization that
    leadership is "a proper subset of managerial behavior" no more than
    management being a proper subset of leadership behavior. They both consist
    of factors that emerge in one way or another depending upon the situation.
    Their situational embeddedness is key to grasp and understand. I have seen
    as most have that some managers are terrible leaders as well as some
    leaders being terrible managers. Embarking upon education/training in an
    attempt to "homogenize" the manager into becoming more of a leader or a
    leader becoming more of a manager may prove futile. Rather an
    understanding that different situations require different behaviors and
    those behaviors ( managerial, leader, etc.) may not be embodied within a
    single functioning self.

    Chumer


  • 3.  Manager(manager(manager))

    Posted 11-11-1999 13:24
    On 11 Nov 99, at 13:08, Michael CHUMER wrote:

    > [JR] The most corrosive thing about this Leadership vs. Manager talk is
    > that the either-or connotation of "vs." forestalls discovery and hope in
    > thousands of human beings.
    >
    > I find very little corrosive about this current thread.

    Corrosive or not, I look at the thread and topic (which has come up
    on other lists periodically) and I see a bit of contentiousness, a
    little bit of snottiness here and there and no way to definitively
    define the common meanings of the two terms.

    That there is a lack of common understanding and meaning (and
    this happens in virtually all discussions on this topic) tells me that
    the concepts are not that useful, or in fact flawed.

    It's almost like we know leadership when we see it (or think we do),
    but can't explain to anyone else what this "thing is.


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