Discussion: View Thread

Hi,

By sending a short note about attachments, I was at the origin (!) of this
massive dialogue between members of the mailing list.
If we put aside the specific issue, it is indeed interesting to analyse
this lively situation and which can be helpful to understand concepts of:
- leadership
- management
and - ownership
in the cyberspace

Using a commercial approach to analyse the list members as was described in
a previous mail can be very useful:
Edi Bevan wrote:
>Can I suggest looking at it in terms of products and customers.

In a sense, this list is at the first step of a business where people want
to get some attention, awareness from others about their work, ideas,
discuss some issues in order to launch afterward a product say a seminar, a
course, an article etc.

This mailing list is in the 'cyberspace' and has a owner who has set up
some basic rules of behavior. However, this list is not manually moderated
(right?) i.e. messages sent by list members are not reviewed by the owner -
we would call the owner a moderator if it was the case.
The owner could be very active and make sure that even every rules that
have been set up are well observed. This is the case of moderated mailing
lists where the moderator invests a number of hours per day to read the
messages before hand, moderates a dialogue, suggests some new subjects,
cuts endless issues, gives his point of view. If the owner is good then
those lists have a very low ratio of noise and are very well focused.
For instance, I used to be a member of internetadvertising mailing
moderated by Adam Boetiger; his intensive work gave him the status of
marketing expert.

This list is not the case: for whatever (valid) reasons, the owner is not
fully moderating the list.
One could consider the owner as a semi passive owner of the organisation:
he is at the board and if there are too many problems then he reacts.
Therefore, there is much freedom left to the members who start acquiring
some sense of ownership to the mailing list.

By letting a loose situation continue, some members start reacting:
1. Leaving: from silent members / lurkers / they send an unsubscribe
message to the server and they are out.
2. Raising their voice on this issue: they start reacting (this was my
case)in order to make sure that some of the rules of this list are being
observed.
3. Trying to set their own rules for the list members deliberately or in a
subtle manner, i.e acquiring some parts of this space.

Is this leading, managing?
Can we identify some of the roles and the mechanisms?

Sincerely,

Philippe Scheimann MBA MSc
http://www.orbina.com

Greetings Philippe,
I hope that the weather in Israel is less wet and foggy than here in New
York.
As the person referred to in your subject field, I'd like to respond to
your comments. This is an unmoderated list. As the person who founded and
still runs (with co-listmaster Michael Wolfe of St. John's) this forum, I
decided that this would be the best approach. Moderators (of moderated
lists) tend to accumulate a heap of postings cull them and dispatch in mass
mailings every so often. I decided to have mg-ed-dv operate as an
unmoderated discussion in real-time by not filtering comments. This, as
with much in life, has good points and bad points. When something
impertinent is posted I often contact the offender off-list and explain why
the posting was a mistake or could be improved next time. That is, I try to
create LIST CULTURE. The culture is meant to keep things on track.
Mg-Ed-Dv is affiliated with the Academy of Management's Management
Education and Development (MED)) Division. I hope to have additional
affiliations for it in the future. MED is meant to encompass BOTH management
education (happening largely in universities and their ilk) and management
development (largely in business and other non-education organizations and
done by corporate staff and/or consultants). I have recruited people from
both areas very consciously and am very pleased that mg-ed-dv is not
strictly academic nor strictly practitioner. Since late 1996, when mg-ed-dv
was started, mg-ed-dv has lived with the horror on the part of some
academics that "they" (non-academics) are here. Well, if an academic gets
goosebumps having a discourse with business folks I think she/he should
switch out of "management" and into "linguistic morphology of the ancient
dead languages".
Sure some people here are "superficial". However, for the intelligent
among us even their comments can be stimulating. I have attempted to DELETE
the subscriptions of offensive folks and groups. (For which, on one
occasion, an Arizonan--you might remember the nut--sent me a death threat).
The ISP, a university in Arizona, explained that they wouldn't remove him
for sending a death threat because it might have be just his feelings for a
time but since he posted quasi-commercial messages they would suspend his
subscription (modern times!).
So, Philippe, am I a manager/leader? I would say I'm trying to be a
culture-manager. Sure, when a squabble occurs I try to restore decorum.
Sure, I establish rules.
Generally, I would prefer more discussion more tightly related to
"management education" and "management development" issues rather than on
"management" issues per se. However, I currently have decided to be lenient
about that since "management issues" are the content of what we teach
anyhow.
Mg-Ed-Dv is a virtual community for sure. You are a member of this virtual
community. You might be in the center of the community actively
constructing our doings. Or you may be at the fringe deleting nearly
everything hoping for the day when your work permits YOU to join in the
civility and collegially of a global virtual discussion--and global we are!
We've had postings from Zimbabwe and Nepal. Certainly we've not overly
USA-centric. Actually, the first half year when I started mg-ed-dv, I was
living and working in Kaunas, Lithuania.
What mg-ed-dvers should do to help make our virtual community a better
place? SHARE! Recently I shared my strategy course website with you all,
for example. I invite you to share interesting exercises, links to net
resources, interesting curricula, what you are looking for, problems you're
having with management ed/dev, etc.
Oh Philippe, by the bye, I don't mind participants suggesting dos and
don'ts in our virtual community. I think that is very useful. However,
Michael and I are around to endorse particular directions and try to keep us
from going in all directions at one time.
Cybercollegially,
Charlie Wankel
St. John's University, New York City
listmaster mg-ed-dv
AOM MED Division Chair
wankelc@stjohns.edu

----------

Philippe in Israel wrote:
....

This list is not the case: for whatever (valid) reasons, the owner is not
fully moderating the list.
One could consider the owner as a semi passive owner of the organisation:
he is at the board and if there are too many problems then he reacts.
Therefore, there is much freedom left to the members who start acquiring
some sense of ownership to the mailing list.

By letting a loose situation continue, some members start reacting:
1. Leaving: from silent members / lurkers / they send an unsubscribe
message to the server and they are out.
2. Raising their voice on this issue: they start reacting (this was my
case)in order to make sure that some of the rules of this list are being
observed.
3. Trying to set their own rules for the list members deliberately or in a
subtle manner, i.e acquiring some parts of this space.

Is this leading, managing?
Can we identify some of the roles and the mechanisms?

Thanks Charles!

______________________

Randall W. Kindley The Performance Group
President 5215 45th Ave. S.
V: 612-721-6752 Minneapolis MN 55417-2334
F: 847-589-5231 www.performgroup.net
kindley@dialupnet.com

"Building High Performance Organizations by
Developing People and Processes"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Management Education and Development Discussion
> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU]On Behalf Of Charles Wankel
> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 4:55 AM
> To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
> Subject: Re: owner/manager/leader re this mailing list
>
>
> Greetings Philippe,
> I hope that the weather in Israel is less wet and foggy
> than here in New
> York.
> As the person referred to in your subject field, I'd like
> to respond to
> your comments. This is an unmoderated list. As the person who
> founded and
> still runs (with co-listmaster Michael Wolfe of St. John's) this forum, I
> decided that this would be the best approach. Moderators (of moderated
> lists) tend to accumulate a heap of postings cull them and
> dispatch in mass
> mailings every so often. I decided to have mg-ed-dv operate as an
> unmoderated discussion in real-time by not filtering comments. This, as
> with much in life, has good points and bad points. When something
> impertinent is posted I often contact the offender off-list and
> explain why
> the posting was a mistake or could be improved next time. That
> is, I try to
> create LIST CULTURE. The culture is meant to keep things on track.
> Mg-Ed-Dv is affiliated with the Academy of Management's Management
> Education and Development (MED)) Division. I hope to have additional
> affiliations for it in the future. MED is meant to encompass BOTH
> management
> education (happening largely in universities and their ilk) and management
> development (largely in business and other non-education organizations and
> done by corporate staff and/or consultants). I have recruited people from
> both areas very consciously and am very pleased that mg-ed-dv is not
> strictly academic nor strictly practitioner. Since late 1996,
> when mg-ed-dv
> was started, mg-ed-dv has lived with the horror on the part of some
> academics that "they" (non-academics) are here. Well, if an academic gets
> goosebumps having a discourse with business folks I think she/he should
> switch out of "management" and into "linguistic morphology of the ancient
> dead languages".
> Sure some people here are "superficial". However, for the
> intelligent
> among us even their comments can be stimulating. I have
> attempted to DELETE
> the subscriptions of offensive folks and groups. (For which, on one
> occasion, an Arizonan--you might remember the nut--sent me a
> death threat).
> The ISP, a university in Arizona, explained that they wouldn't remove him
> for sending a death threat because it might have be just his
> feelings for a
> time but since he posted quasi-commercial messages they would suspend his
> subscription (modern times!).
> So, Philippe, am I a manager/leader? I would say I'm trying to be a
> culture-manager. Sure, when a squabble occurs I try to restore decorum.
> Sure, I establish rules.
> Generally, I would prefer more discussion more tightly related to
> "management education" and "management development" issues rather than on
> "management" issues per se. However, I currently have decided to
> be lenient
> about that since "management issues" are the content of what we teach
> anyhow.
> Mg-Ed-Dv is a virtual community for sure. You are a member
> of this virtual
> community. You might be in the center of the community actively
> constructing our doings. Or you may be at the fringe deleting nearly
> everything hoping for the day when your work permits YOU to join in the
> civility and collegially of a global virtual discussion--and
> global we are!
> We've had postings from Zimbabwe and Nepal. Certainly we've not overly
> USA-centric. Actually, the first half year when I started mg-ed-dv, I was
> living and working in Kaunas, Lithuania.
> What mg-ed-dvers should do to help make our virtual
> community a better
> place? SHARE! Recently I shared my strategy course website with you all,
> for example. I invite you to share interesting exercises, links to net
> resources, interesting curricula, what you are looking for,
> problems you're
> having with management ed/dev, etc.
> Oh Philippe, by the bye, I don't mind participants
> suggesting dos and
> don'ts in our virtual community. I think that is very useful. However,
> Michael and I are around to endorse particular directions and try
> to keep us
> from going in all directions at one time.
> Cybercollegially,
> Charlie Wankel
> St. John's University, New York City
> listmaster mg-ed-dv
> AOM MED Division Chair
> wankelc@stjohns.edu
>
> ----------
>
> Philippe in Israel wrote:
> ....
>
> This list is not the case: for whatever (valid) reasons, the owner is not
> fully moderating the list.
> One could consider the owner as a semi passive owner of the organisation:
> he is at the board and if there are too many problems then he reacts.
> Therefore, there is much freedom left to the members who start acquiring
> some sense of ownership to the mailing list.
>
> By letting a loose situation continue, some members start reacting:
> 1. Leaving: from silent members / lurkers / they send an unsubscribe
> message to the server and they are out.
> 2. Raising their voice on this issue: they start reacting (this was my
> case)in order to make sure that some of the rules of this list are being
> observed.
> 3. Trying to set their own rules for the list members deliberately or in a
> subtle manner, i.e acquiring some parts of this space.
>
> Is this leading, managing?
> Can we identify some of the roles and the mechanisms?