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Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

  • 1.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-18-2009 11:13

    It might be interesting to publish a debate about some critical issue in decision-making, in a special issue on 'Enhancing Decisions' to be published in Management Decision, one of Emerald's journals.  Please suggest issues that you might consider more attractive than asking for viewpoints on the merits of intuitive alternatives for a decision.



  • 2.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-20-2009 01:53
    The frames in which Prediction Markets are a viable decision method.
    The frames in which intuition yields better behaviors than decision-making.

    On Oct 18, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Erwin Rausch wrote:

    It might be interesting to publish a debate about some critical issue in decision-making, in a special issue on 'Enhancing Decisions' to be published in Management Decision, one of Emerald's journals.  Please suggest issues that you might consider more attractive than asking for viewpoints on the merits of intuitive alternatives for a decision.




  • 3.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-20-2009 10:52

    How about a debate on what we should teach in terms of decision-making in business schools?

     

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
    Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 12:53 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    The frames in which Prediction Markets are a viable decision method.

    The frames in which intuition yields better behaviors than decision-making.

     

    On Oct 18, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Erwin Rausch wrote:



    It might be interesting to publish a debate about some critical issue in decision-making, in a special issue on 'Enhancing Decisions' to be published in Management Decision, one of Emerald's journals.  Please suggest issues that you might consider more attractive than asking for viewpoints on the merits of intuitive alternatives for a decision.

     

     



  • 4.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-20-2009 11:22
    Jack,
     
    I'm not familiar with "Prediction Markets".  Could you expand that concept a bit?
     
    Thanks,
     
    Gary
     
     

    ...................................................................

    Gary Lundquist

    GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

    Director@InnoSearchColorado.com

    303-840-9929

    Energizing Innovation

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
    Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 11:53 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    The frames in which Prediction Markets are a viable decision method.
    The frames in which intuition yields better behaviors than decision-making.

    On Oct 18, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Erwin Rausch wrote:

    It might be interesting to publish a debate about some critical issue in decision-making, in a special issue on 'Enhancing Decisions' to be published in Management Decision, one of Emerald's journals.  Please suggest issues that you might consider more attractive than asking for viewpoints on the merits of intuitive alternatives for a decision.




  • 5.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-21-2009 03:12

    Sure,

    Kind of like the old anchor pool but lets you pay to change your mind as the event gets closer.

    A good summary can be found at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~ericz/palgrave.pdf which starts with, "Prediction Markets, sometimes referred to as "information markets," "idea futures" or "event futures", are markets where participants trade contracts whose [sic] payoffs are tied to a future event, thereby yielding prices that can be interpreted as market-aggregated forecasts."

    Prof. Malone, MIT, helped a division of HP cut sales forecasting error in half.

    Project teams, when allowed, forecast completion dates much more accurately than do project managers.

    Enough?

    Jack Ring

    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:21 AM
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,
     
    I'm not familiar with "Prediction Markets".  Could you expand that concept a bit?
     


  • 6.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-21-2009 11:13
    MED Colleagues,
     
    The Tippie College at the University of Iowa has a long-running electronics market that has been used largely for political polling (its call the IEM, or Iowa Electronics Market).  A paper summarizing that work, and the logic of futures markets for predicting the future, can be found here:
     
     
    One of the researchers at the IEM had compared various forecasting techniques and found that markets can be an efficient way to aggregate information to generate quantitative predictions.  Researchers at the IEM are actively doing work for other types of predictions.  So I agree that this is a potentially fruitful area of future research on decision making.
     
    Ken
     
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Kenneth G. Brown, Ph.D.
    Associate Professor and Henry B. Tippie Faculty Fellow
    Associate Editor, Academy of Management Learning & Education
    Henry B. Tippie College of Business
    Iowa City, IA  52246

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring [jring@AMUG.ORG]
    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:12 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Sure,

    Kind of like the old anchor pool but lets you pay to change your mind as the event gets closer.

    A good summary can be found at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~ericz/palgrave.pdf which starts with, "Prediction Markets, sometimes referred to as "information markets," "idea futures" or "event futures", are markets where participants trade contracts whose [sic] payoffs are tied to a future event, thereby yielding prices that can be interpreted as market-aggregated forecasts."

    Prof. Malone, MIT, helped a division of HP cut sales forecasting error in half.

    Project teams, when allowed, forecast completion dates much more accurately than do project managers.

    Enough?

    Jack Ring

    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:21 AM
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,
     
    I'm not familiar with "Prediction Markets".  Could you expand that concept a bit?
     


  • 7.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-21-2009 15:35
    The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a commitment to a course of action. Similarly, the difference between decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a commitment.

    --
    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    Managing Partner
    Distance Consulting, LLC
    nickols@att.net
    www.nickols.us

    "Assistance at A Distance"


  • 8.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-21-2009 21:35
    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of one
    sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is meaningless.
    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.
    Jack Ring
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: <nickols@att.net>
    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>
    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM
    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making
    >
    >
    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a
    > commitment to a course of action. Similarly, the difference between
    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a commitment.
    >>
    >> --
    > Regards,
    >>
    > Fred Nickols
    > Managing Partner
    > Distance Consulting, LLC
    > nickols@att.net
    > www.nickols.us
    >>
    > "Assistance at A Distance"
    >>
    >


  • 9.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-22-2009 10:22
    Jack,
    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,
    and to many a decision is just a choice. To others it is a commitment
    to action. Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,
    some just don't see that very easily. Perhaps that is what makes this
    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry


    Jerrold Strong, M.A.
    Staff Development
    AC Transit
    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318
    Oakland, CA 94612
    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."
    T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of
    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is
    meaningless.
    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.
    Jack Ring
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: <nickols@att.net>
    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>
    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM
    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making
    >
    >
    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a
    > commitment to a course of action. Similarly, the difference between
    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a
    commitment.
    >>
    >> --
    > Regards,
    >>
    > Fred Nickols
    > Managing Partner
    > Distance Consulting, LLC
    > nickols@att.net
    > www.nickols.us
    >>
    > "Assistance at A Distance"
    >>
    >


  • 10.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-22-2009 12:22
    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides”

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.



    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour
    Open University Business School
    Walton Hall
    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA
    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk
    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804
    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898
    ________________________________
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]
    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,
    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,
    and to many a decision is just a choice. To others it is a commitment
    to action. Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,
    some just don't see that very easily. Perhaps that is what makes this
    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry


    Jerrold Strong, M.A.
    Staff Development
    AC Transit
    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318
    Oakland, CA 94612
    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."
    T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of
    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is
    meaningless.
    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.
    Jack Ring
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: <nickols@att.net>
    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>
    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM
    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making
    >
    >
    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a
    > commitment to a course of action. Similarly, the difference between
    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a
    commitment.
    >>
    >> --
    > Regards,
    >>
    > Fred Nickols
    > Managing Partner
    > Distance Consulting, LLC
    > nickols@att.net
    > www.nickols.us<http://www.nickols.us/>
    >>
    > "Assistance at A Distance"
    >>
    >

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).


  • 11.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-25-2009 07:15

    If I could make the counter-case ...

    100 years ago, had we asked a chemical-plant manager how they ensured high yield and safe operation, they would have replied 'intuition' - now the whole system is computer controlled, following a disciplined science. 50 years ago, had we asked a logistics manager how they decided on delivery routes, they would have replied 'experience' - now it is done by a proven reliable method.

    40 years ago, had we asked a bank manager how they appraised a customer loan application, they would have replied 'intuition' or 'experience' - now it is done by disciplined credit-scoring systems that routinely beat managerial judgement [and look at the price we all just paid for ignoring that discipline!]

    30 years ago, had we asked an airline executive how they set prices they would have replied 'intuition' - now they use sophisticated, methodical yield management systems.

    The story seems to be one of increasing penetration of proven method at the expense of human intuition - even going beyond physical systems and encroaching on systems rife with human behavioural features.

    It looks like management is amongst the last of very few professions where human intuition is more highly regarded than working stuff out.

    I would concede that, in the absence of reliable known method, 'experience' is valuable - but experience is the accumulation of tacit knowledge about how things work - not uninformed gut-feel. I would also concede that there are critical issues about managing people and organisations that are not easily subject to method. But for the more substantive management choices and decisions, we all pay a very heavy price, whether as investors, customers, consumers or simply people with a pension, for the continued reliance on management intuition. Successful gamblers are rare, and we are too often led by management who like to game with other people's money and livelihoods, urged on by business media and investor-representatives who know little more than to follow people who seem to be those few successful gamblers.

    It's time to recognise and promote the thoughtful evaluation and risk assessment that would be expected if management - especially strategic management - were professionally done.

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

    Kim Warren

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 22 October 2009 18:46
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides"

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion  of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.



    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Business School

    Walton Hall

    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA

    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]

    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,

    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,

    and to many a decision is just a choice.  To others it is a commitment

    to action.  Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,

    some just don't see that very easily.  Perhaps that is what makes this

    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry


    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

                                                         T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring

    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of

    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is

    meaningless.

    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.

    Jack Ring

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: <nickols@att.net>

    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM

    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    >

    >

    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a

    > commitment to a course of action.  Similarly, the difference between

    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a

    commitment.

    >>

    >> --

    > Regards,

    >>

    > Fred Nickols

    > Managing Partner

    > Distance Consulting, LLC

    > nickols@att.net

    > www.nickols.us<http://www.nickols.us/>

    >>

    > "Assistance at A Distance"

    >>

    >

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).




  • 12.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-25-2009 10:11
    In a message dated 10/25/2009 7:47:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kim@STRATEGYDYNAMICS.COM writes:

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

     
    Please don't Kim.
     
    Instead, please give serious thought to preparing a (short) paper and submit it for publication in the special issue on 'Enhancing Decisions'.  For the debate, the minimum suggested length of 3000 words would not apply and the submissions can be shorter.
     
    By copy of this message I am asking Mark to do likewise.  It would seem to me to be great if you two were to submit a joint paper as 'point and counter-point'.  That paper can use the ideas you presented in these postings.
     
    If either of you, or any one else would like for me to send (off-line) the call for papers, again, please let me know.
     
    Regards,
     
    Erwin


  • 13.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-26-2009 11:23

    Kim,

     

    Interestingly I agree with most of what you have written (up to a point). Nothing I am arguing is antithetical to the notion that we can develop systematic approaches to decision-making (where the problems are well structured at least)..  (I would though disagree with your characterisation of the recent financial crisis as consequent on intuitive decision-making rather than credit scoring systems.) The credit crunch rather came about on the back of a highly scientific approach to risk valuation. Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.

     

    Of course not all intuitions are as valuable as others. Would I trust the intuition of a medical student about a diagnosis? – Probably not. I might put greater reliance on the intuitive clinical judgement of a consultant who has many years of expertise in the field though. The examples you give are of well bounded fields where we can apply known rules in a known context. However, most professionals need to extemporise in ill structured situations , reasoning by analogy and drawing on experience over many thousands of experienced situations. In such circumstances, the rules only take you so far.  

     

    The mathematical modelling of financial risk is an interesting case in point. It is a good example of how we are easily misled by a 'method' into believing it is a good description of the world when it is only a 'good enough' model of the world so long as the future continues to behave much like the past.  Intuition is of course no panacea – it suffers from exactly the same problems as conscious model based analysis – the tendency to apply prior experience (or models based on prior experience of many people) in contexts where it is no longer applicable.

     

    Mark

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: 25 October 2009 11:15
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    If I could make the counter-case ...

    100 years ago, had we asked a chemical-plant manager how they ensured high yield and safe operation, they would have replied 'intuition' - now the whole system is computer controlled, following a disciplined science. 50 years ago, had we asked a logistics manager how they decided on delivery routes, they would have replied 'experience' - now it is done by a proven reliable method.

    40 years ago, had we asked a bank manager how they appraised a customer loan application, they would have replied 'intuition' or 'experience' - now it is done by disciplined credit-scoring systems that routinely beat managerial judgement [and look at the price we all just paid for ignoring that discipline!]

    30 years ago, had we asked an airline executive how they set prices they would have replied 'intuition' - now they use sophisticated, methodical yield management systems.

    The story seems to be one of increasing penetration of proven method at the expense of human intuition - even going beyond physical systems and encroaching on systems rife with human behavioural features.

    It looks like management is amongst the last of very few professions where human intuition is more highly regarded than working stuff out.

    I would concede that, in the absence of reliable known method, 'experience' is valuable - but experience is the accumulation of tacit knowledge about how things work - not uninformed gut-feel. I would also concede that there are critical issues about managing people and organisations that are not easily subject to method. But for the more substantive management choices and decisions, we all pay a very heavy price, whether as investors, customers, consumers or simply people with a pension, for the continued reliance on management intuition. Successful gamblers are rare, and we are too often led by management who like to game with other people's money and livelihoods, urged on by business media and investor-representatives who know little more than to follow people who seem to be those few successful gamblers.

    It's time to recognise and promote the thoughtful evaluation and risk assessment that would be expected if management - especially strategic management - were professionally done.

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

    Kim Warren

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 22 October 2009 18:46
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides"

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion  of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.

     

    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Business School

    Walton Hall

    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA

    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]

    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,

    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,

    and to many a decision is just a choice.  To others it is a commitment

    to action.  Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,

    some just don't see that very easily.  Perhaps that is what makes this

    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry

     

    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

                                                         T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring

    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of

    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is

    meaningless.

    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.

    Jack Ring

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: <nickols@att.net>

    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM

    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    > 

    > 

    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a

    > commitment to a course of action.  Similarly, the difference between

    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a

    commitment.

    >> 

    >> --

    > Regards,

    >> 

    > Fred Nickols

    > Managing Partner

    > Distance Consulting, LLC

    > nickols@att.net

    > www.nickols.us<http://www.nickols.us/>

    >> 

    > "Assistance at A Distance"

    >> 

    > 

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).

     




    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).


  • 14.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-26-2009 14:21
    Colleagues,
     
    Mark said, "Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.
     
    Consider the possibility that well done yet inadequate math was used.  Math that will never predict market behavior, much less predict the so called "crowd effect" when the masses and even the experts all go the same way for too long.
     
    Better math is available now, but not yet accepted.  Decisions now may involve trust/not trust the few practitioners who can turn the deeply complex new math into practical technology.
     
    Best,
     
    Gary

    ...................................................................

    Gary Lundquist

    GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

    Director@InnoSearchColorado.com

    303-840-9929

    Energizing Innovation

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:23 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Kim,

     

    Interestingly I agree with most of what you have written (up to a point). Nothing I am arguing is antithetical to the notion that we can develop systematic approaches to decision-making (where the problems are well structured at least)..  (I would though disagree with your characterisation of the recent financial crisis as consequent on intuitive decision-making rather than credit scoring systems.) The credit crunch rather came about on the back of a highly scientific approach to risk valuation. Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.

     

    Of course not all intuitions are as valuable as others. Would I trust the intuition of a medical student about a diagnosis? – Probably not. I might put greater reliance on the intuitive clinical judgement of a consultant who has many years of expertise in the field though. The examples you give are of well bounded fields where we can apply known rules in a known context. However, most professionals need to extemporise in ill structured situations , reasoning by analogy and drawing on experience over many thousands of experienced situations. In such circumstances, the rules only take you so far.  

     

    The mathematical modelling of financial risk is an interesting case in point. It is a good example of how we are easily misled by a 'method' into believing it is a good description of the world when it is only a 'good enough' model of the world so long as the future continues to behave much like the past.  Intuition is of course no panacea – it suffers from exactly the same problems as conscious model based analysis – the tendency to apply prior experience (or models based on prior experience of many people) in contexts where it is no longer applicable.

     

    Mark

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: 25 October 2009 11:15
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    If I could make the counter-case ...

    100 years ago, had we asked a chemical-plant manager how they ensured high yield and safe operation, they would have replied 'intuition' - now the whole system is computer controlled, following a disciplined science. 50 years ago, had we asked a logistics manager how they decided on delivery routes, they would have replied 'experience' - now it is done by a proven reliable method.

    40 years ago, had we asked a bank manager how they appraised a customer loan application, they would have replied 'intuition' or 'experience' - now it is done by disciplined credit-scoring systems that routinely beat managerial judgement [and look at the price we all just paid for ignoring that discipline!]

    30 years ago, had we asked an airline executive how they set prices they would have replied 'intuition' - now they use sophisticated, methodical yield management systems.

    The story seems to be one of increasing penetration of proven method at the expense of human intuition - even going beyond physical systems and encroaching on systems rife with human behavioural features.

    It looks like management is amongst the last of very few professions where human intuition is more highly regarded than working stuff out.

    I would concede that, in the absence of reliable known method, 'experience' is valuable - but experience is the accumulation of tacit knowledge about how things work - not uninformed gut-feel. I would also concede that there are critical issues about managing people and organisations that are not easily subject to method. But for the more substantive management choices and decisions, we all pay a very heavy price, whether as investors, customers, consumers or simply people with a pension, for the continued reliance on management intuition. Successful gamblers are rare, and we are too often led by management who like to game with other people's money and livelihoods, urged on by business media and investor-representatives who know little more than to follow people who seem to be those few successful gamblers.

    It's time to recognise and promote the thoughtful evaluation and risk assessment that would be expected if management - especially strategic management - were professionally done.

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

    Kim Warren

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 22 October 2009 18:46
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides"

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion  of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.

     

    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Business School

    Walton Hall

    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA

    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]

    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,

    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,

    and to many a decision is just a choice.  To others it is a commitment

    to action.  Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,

    some just don't see that very easily.  Perhaps that is what makes this

    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry

     

    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

                                                         T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring

    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of

    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is

    meaningless.

    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.

    Jack Ring

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: <nickols@att.net>

    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM

    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    > 

    > 

    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a

    > commitment to a course of action.  Similarly, the difference between

    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a

    commitment.

    >> 

    >> --

    > Regards,

    >> 

    > Fred Nickols

    > Managing Partner

    > Distance Consulting, LLC

    > nickols@att.net

    > www.nickols.us<http://www.nickols.us/>

    >> 

    > "Assistance at A Distance"

    >> 

    > 

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).

     




    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).


  • 15.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-26-2009 15:30

    Hi Gary,

    I play with R, the open source programmable math programming language. IN there I use a windows Gui called Rattle, also free. The guy that writes it has programmed in there for me a transformation called Nolans Groups and Matrix for me.

    What my concept does is take several measurement variables, and then clusters them with an indexing calculation based on several descriptive variables. So each item being clustered receives a rating, which is relative  to its peers within that sub population. Once every item is indexed, then we apply a fuzzy matrix, and then a kmeans to the matrix which clusters into 1000 groups. Then using that kmeans result as a target variable, we then run a decision tree or random forest to make a set of rules for dissecting and modeling the data.

    We are calling it called Nolans Relativity Peer Clustering Index.

    So far we still havent broken it, we have tried to over load the matrix, we have changed random number seeds, we have independent entity rating systems, and then bench mark the clusters against our output and the clusters are true to their rules in the difference form the original populations norms and averages.

    So what used to be complex analysis, now using the newer analytics tools is becoming childs play, for people to invent new approaches, all you need to do is forget the past faults of statistic and maths, realise we are in a fuzzy not crisp world, and model the interactions.

    Regards
    Tony Nolan


    At 05:20 AM 27/10/2009, you wrote:
    Colleagues,
     
    Mark said, "Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.
     
    Consider the possibility that well done yet inadequate math was used.  Math that will never predict market behavior, much less predict the so called "crowd effect" when the masses and even the experts all go the same way for too long.
     
    Better math is available now, but not yet accepted.  Decisions now may involve trust/not trust the few practitioners who can turn the deeply complex new math into practical technology.
     
    Best,
     
    Gary

    ...................................................................

    Gary Lundquist

    GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

    Director@InnoSearchColorado.com

    303-840-9929

    Energizing Innovation™
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:23 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Kim,
     
    Interestingly I agree with most of what you have written (up to a point). Nothing I am arguing is antithetical to the notion that we can develop systematic approaches to decision-making (where the problems are well structured at least)..  (I would though disagree with your characterisation of the recent financial crisis as consequent on intuitive decision-making rather than credit scoring systems.) The credit crunch rather came about on the back of a highly scientific approach to risk valuation. Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.
     
    Of course not all intuitions are as valuable as others. Would I trust the intuition of a medical student about a diagnosis? – Probably not. I might put greater reliance on the intuitive clinical judgement of a consultant who has many years of expertise in the field though. The examples you give are of well bounded fields where we can apply known rules in a known context. However, most professionals need to extemporise in ill structured situations , reasoning by analogy and drawing on experience over many thousands of experienced situations. In such circumstances, the rules only take you so far. 
     
    The mathematical modelling of financial risk is an interesting case in point. It is a good example of how we are easily misled by a ‘method’ into believing it is a good description of the world when it is only a ‘good enough’ model of the world so long as the future continues to behave much like the past.  Intuition is of course no panacea – it suffers from exactly the same problems as conscious model based analysis – the tendency to apply prior experience (or models based on prior experience of many people) in contexts where it is no longer applicable.
     
    Mark
     
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: 25 October 2009 11:15
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making
     

    If I could make the counter-case ...

    100 years ago, had we asked a chemical-plant manager how they ensured high yield and safe operation, they would have replied 'intuition' - now the whole system is computer controlled, following a disciplined science. 50 years ago, had we asked a logistics manager how they decided on delivery routes, they would have replied 'experience' - now it is done by a proven reliable method.

    40 years ago, had we asked a bank manager how they appraised a customer loan application, they would have replied 'intuition' or 'experience' - now it is done by disciplined credit-scoring systems that routinely beat managerial judgement [and look at the price we all just paid for ignoring that discipline!]

    30 years ago, had we asked an airline executive how they set prices they would have replied 'intuition' - now they use sophisticated, methodical yield management systems.

    The story seems to be one of increasing penetration of proven method at the expense of human intuition - even going beyond physical systems and encroaching on systems rife with human behavioural features.

    It looks like management is amongst the last of very few professions where human intuition is more highly regarded than working stuff out.

    I would concede that, in the absence of reliable known method, 'experience' is valuable - but experience is the accumulation of tacit knowledge about how things work - not uninformed gut-feel. I would also concede that there are critical issues about managing people and organisations that are not easily subject to method. But for the more substantive management choices and decisions, we all pay a very heavy price, whether as investors, customers, consumers or simply people with a pension, for the continued reliance on management intuition. Successful gamblers are rare, and we are too often led by management who like to game with other people's money and livelihoods, urged on by business media and investor-representatives who know little more than to follow people who seem to be those few successful gamblers.

    It's time to recognise and promote the thoughtful evaluation and risk assessment that would be expected if management - especially strategic management - were professionally done.

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

    Kim Warren

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 22 October 2009 18:46
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides”

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion  of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.
     

    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Business School

    Walton Hall

    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA

    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]

    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,

    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,

    and to many a decision is just a choice.  To others it is a commitment

    to action.  Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,

    some just don't see that very easily.  Perhaps that is what makes this

    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry
     

    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

                                                         T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring

    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of

    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is

    meaningless.

    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.

    Jack Ring

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: <nickols@att.net>

    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM

    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    >

    >

    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a

    > commitment to a course of action.  Similarly, the difference between

    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a

    commitment.

    >>

    >> --

    > Regards,

    >>

    > Fred Nickols

    > Managing Partner

    > Distance Consulting, LLC

    > nickols@att.net

    > www.nickols.us <http://www.nickols.us/>

    >>

    > "Assistance at A Distance"

    >>

    >

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).
     



    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).
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  • 16.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-26-2009 20:48
    I would suggest that evidence based management is alive and well, and intuition has not served very well. I recommend the book "Hard Facts, Dangerous Half-Truths And Total Nonsense: Profiting From Evidence-Based Management by Jeffrey Pfeffer and Robert Sutton.

    This might be useful in the discussion.

    Jerry

    Jerrold Strong, M.A.
    Staff Development
    AC Transit
    510-891-4840

    Age is Inevitable; Growth is Optional

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of Kim Warren
    Sent: Sun 10/25/2009 4:14 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making



    If I could make the counter-case ...

    100 years ago, had we asked a chemical-plant manager how they ensured high yield and safe operation, they would have replied 'intuition' - now the whole system is computer controlled, following a disciplined science. 50 years ago, had we asked a logistics manager how they decided on delivery routes, they would have replied 'experience' - now it is done by a proven reliable method.

    40 years ago, had we asked a bank manager how they appraised a customer loan application, they would have replied 'intuition' or 'experience' - now it is done by disciplined credit-scoring systems that routinely beat managerial judgement [and look at the price we all just paid for ignoring that discipline!]

    30 years ago, had we asked an airline executive how they set prices they would have replied 'intuition' - now they use sophisticated, methodical yield management systems.

    The story seems to be one of increasing penetration of proven method at the expense of human intuition - even going beyond physical systems and encroaching on systems rife with human behavioural features.

    It looks like management is amongst the last of very few professions where human intuition is more highly regarded than working stuff out.

    I would concede that, in the absence of reliable known method, 'experience' is valuable - but experience is the accumulation of tacit knowledge about how things work - not uninformed gut-feel. I would also concede that there are critical issues about managing people and organisations that are not easily subject to method. But for the more substantive management choices and decisions, we all pay a very heavy price, whether as investors, customers, consumers or simply people with a pension, for the continued reliance on management intuition. Successful gamblers are rare, and we are too often led by management who like to game with other people's money and livelihoods, urged on by business media and investor-representatives who know little more than to follow people who seem to be those few successful gamblers.

    It's time to recognise and promote the thoughtful evaluation and risk assessment that would be expected if management - especially strategic management - were professionally done.

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

    Kim Warren

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 22 October 2009 18:46
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides"

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.



    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Business School

    Walton Hall

    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA

    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]

    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,

    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,

    and to many a decision is just a choice. To others it is a commitment

    to action. Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,

    some just don't see that very easily. Perhaps that is what makes this

    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry


    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

    T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring

    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of

    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is

    meaningless.

    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.

    Jack Ring

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: <nickols@att.net>

    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM

    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    >

    >

    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a

    > commitment to a course of action. Similarly, the difference between

    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a

    commitment.

    >>

    >> --

    > Regards,

    >>

    > Fred Nickols

    > Managing Partner

    > Distance Consulting, LLC

    > nickols@att.net

    > www.nickols.us<http://www.nickols.us/>

    >>

    > "Assistance at A Distance"

    >>

    >

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).


  • 17.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 05:42

    Thanks Mark – I only meant that the sub-prime mortgage nonsense was entirely contrary to any notion of credit scoring, rather than the whole financial crisis. That was, though, a major component – can't remember how many billions of toxic debt lay in that particular segment, but recall it was quite a lot.

    I perhaps read more than you meant into the quote "Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs.  ... Instinct and prejudice are much better guides." I see you went on to advocate practice and experience, which I guess is a less formal version of developing reliable procedures.

    It certainly looks, as you say, like much of the rest of the trouble was down to mathematical models that didn't work – but that's not professional either .. an engineer or doctor with a new theoretically persuasive way of doing something tests it out carefully – on a very small scale and widely differing circumstances - before launching it on an unsuspecting world, and if it's too large or complex to test in practice, they stress-test it in simulated extreme conditions. It rather looks [though it's not a world I know at all] like the banking whizz-kids failed in this fundamental responsibility.

    The discussion raises one other question for me – much of the post-crisis debate has focused on the alleged questionable ethics of senior management, and the failure of governance systems. I don't know what others' experience has been, but it is not my impression that senior managers are generally without scruples or ethics. Most seem to be well-meaning people genuinely trying to do their best. But if they are not equipped with reliable ways of assessing what 'best' is, they will likely continue to make mistakes. And as for governance – if those supervisors also do not know what 'best' looks like, how are they going to know when to blow the whistle and stop the most hot-headed executives?

    Best wishes - Kim

     

    Kim Warren

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 26 October 2009 16:30
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    Kim,

     

    Interestingly I agree with most of what you have written (up to a point). Nothing I am arguing is antithetical to the notion that we can develop systematic approaches to decision-making (where the problems are well structured at least)..  (I would though disagree with your characterisation of the recent financial crisis as consequent on intuitive decision-making rather than credit scoring systems.) The credit crunch rather came about on the back of a highly scientific approach to risk valuation. Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.

     

    Of course not all intuitions are as valuable as others. Would I trust the intuition of a medical student about a diagnosis? – Probably not. I might put greater reliance on the intuitive clinical judgement of a consultant who has many years of expertise in the field though. The examples you give are of well bounded fields where we can apply known rules in a known context. However, most professionals need to extemporise in ill structured situations , reasoning by analogy and drawing on experience over many thousands of experienced situations. In such circumstances, the rules only take you so far.  

     

    The mathematical modelling of financial risk is an interesting case in point. It is a good example of how we are easily misled by a 'method' into believing it is a good description of the world when it is only a 'good enough' model of the world so long as the future continues to behave much like the past.  Intuition is of course no panacea – it suffers from exactly the same problems as conscious model based analysis – the tendency to apply prior experience (or models based on prior experience of many people) in contexts where it is no longer applicable.

     

    Mark

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: 25 October 2009 11:15
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    If I could make the counter-case ...

    100 years ago, had we asked a chemical-plant manager how they ensured high yield and safe operation, they would have replied 'intuition' - now the whole system is computer controlled, following a disciplined science. 50 years ago, had we asked a logistics manager how they decided on delivery routes, they would have replied 'experience' - now it is done by a proven reliable method.

    40 years ago, had we asked a bank manager how they appraised a customer loan application, they would have replied 'intuition' or 'experience' - now it is done by disciplined credit-scoring systems that routinely beat managerial judgement [and look at the price we all just paid for ignoring that discipline!]

    30 years ago, had we asked an airline executive how they set prices they would have replied 'intuition' - now they use sophisticated, methodical yield management systems.

    The story seems to be one of increasing penetration of proven method at the expense of human intuition - even going beyond physical systems and encroaching on systems rife with human behavioural features.

    It looks like management is amongst the last of very few professions where human intuition is more highly regarded than working stuff out.

    I would concede that, in the absence of reliable known method, 'experience' is valuable - but experience is the accumulation of tacit knowledge about how things work - not uninformed gut-feel. I would also concede that there are critical issues about managing people and organisations that are not easily subject to method. But for the more substantive management choices and decisions, we all pay a very heavy price, whether as investors, customers, consumers or simply people with a pension, for the continued reliance on management intuition. Successful gamblers are rare, and we are too often led by management who like to game with other people's money and livelihoods, urged on by business media and investor-representatives who know little more than to follow people who seem to be those few successful gamblers.

    It's time to recognise and promote the thoughtful evaluation and risk assessment that would be expected if management - especially strategic management - were professionally done.

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

    Kim Warren

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 22 October 2009 18:46
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides"

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion  of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.

     

    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Business School

    Walton Hall

    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA

    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]

    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,

    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,

    and to many a decision is just a choice.  To others it is a commitment

    to action.  Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,

    some just don't see that very easily.  Perhaps that is what makes this

    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry

     

    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

                                                         T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring

    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of

    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is

    meaningless.

    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.

    Jack Ring

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: <nickols@att.net>

    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM

    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    > 

    > 

    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a

    > commitment to a course of action.  Similarly, the difference between

    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a

    commitment.

    >> 

    >> --

    > Regards,

    >> 

    > Fred Nickols

    > Managing Partner

    > Distance Consulting, LLC

    > nickols@att.net

    > www.nickols.us<http://www.nickols.us/>

    >> 

    > "Assistance at A Distance"

    >> 

    > 

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).

     

     



    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).



  • 18.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 12:18
    Tony Nolan: (We might chat outside the MG-ED venue.)
     
    You seem to have developed a tool supporting decisions.  I observe that you don't mention what kind of decisions or what types of data apply.
     
    Indeed, in terms of presenting an invention to a market, you've only mentioned name and functionality.
     
    In a different listserv conversation, I was prompted by a wise gentleman to consider envisioning all the core decisions that must be made to effectively launch a business.  Launching a product would require a subset.
     
    I settled for 25.  Each, of course, is achieved by decision processes, so the simple sum hides a much larger number. Though undefined here, the list for businesses shows concept:

    Name, Functional Class, Short Description, Future Intentions, Segments, Customers / Stakeholders, Needs, Value, Competitive arena(s), Competitive factors, Uniqueness, Position, Slogan, Value promise, Brand concept, Mission, Goals, Objectives, Strategies / Tactics, Business model, Values, Principles of Operation, Core roles, Driving factors, Vision statement

     
    Until then, I'd seen the value promise as key to brand equity.  But if a business can make and keep 25 promises, the market impact is vastly greater -- both for the business and for its customers.
     
    Best,
     
    Gary

    Energizing Innovation

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of tony nolan
    Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:30 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making


    Hi Gary,

    I play with R, the open source programmable math programming language. IN there I use a windows Gui called Rattle, also free. The guy that writes it has programmed in there for me a transformation called Nolans Groups and Matrix for me.

    What my concept does is take several measurement variables, and then clusters them with an indexing calculation based on several descriptive variables. So each item being clustered receives a rating, which is relative  to its peers within that sub population. Once every item is indexed, then we apply a fuzzy matrix, and then a kmeans to the matrix which clusters into 1000 groups. Then using that kmeans result as a target variable, we then run a decision tree or random forest to make a set of rules for dissecting and modeling the data.

    We are calling it called Nolans Relativity Peer Clustering Index.

    So far we still havent broken it, we have tried to over load the matrix, we have changed random number seeds, we have independent entity rating systems, and then bench mark the clusters against our output and the clusters are true to their rules in the difference form the original populations norms and averages.

    So what used to be complex analysis, now using the newer analytics tools is becoming childs play, for people to invent new approaches, all you need to do is forget the past faults of statistic and maths, realise we are in a fuzzy not crisp world, and model the interactions.

    Regards
    Tony Nolan


    At 05:20 AM 27/10/2009, you wrote:
    Colleagues,
     
    Mark said, "Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.
     
    Consider the possibility that well done yet inadequate math was used.  Math that will never predict market behavior, much less predict the so called "crowd effect" when the masses and even the experts all go the same way for too long.
     
    Better math is available now, but not yet accepted.  Decisions now may involve trust/not trust the few practitioners who can turn the deeply complex new math into practical technology.
     
    Best,
     
    Gary

    ...................................................................

    Gary Lundquist

    GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

    Director@InnoSearchColorado.com

    303-840-9929

    Energizing Innovation™
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:23 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Kim,

     
    Interestingly I agree with most of what you have written (up to a point). Nothing I am arguing is antithetical to the notion that we can develop systematic approaches to decision-making (where the problems are well structured at least)..  (I would though disagree with your characterisation of the recent financial crisis as consequent on intuitive decision-making rather than credit scoring systems.) The credit crunch rather came about on the back of a highly scientific approach to risk valuation. Unfortunately the maths turned out to based on some poor assumptions.

     
    Of course not all intuitions are as valuable as others. Would I trust the intuition of a medical student about a diagnosis? – Probably not. I might put greater reliance on the intuitive clinical judgement of a consultant who has many years of expertise in the field though. The examples you give are of well bounded fields where we can apply known rules in a known context. However, most professionals need to extemporise in ill structured situations , reasoning by analogy and drawing on experience over many thousands of experienced situations. In such circumstances, the rules only take you so far. 

     
    The mathematical modelling of financial risk is an interesting case in point. It is a good example of how we are easily misled by a 'method' into believing it is a good description of the world when it is only a 'good enough' model of the world so long as the future continues to behave much like the past.  Intuition is of course no panacea – it suffers from exactly the same problems as conscious model based analysis – the tendency to apply prior experience (or models based on prior experience of many people) in contexts where it is no longer applicable.

     
    Mark

     
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: 25 October 2009 11:15
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making


     
    If I could make the counter-case ...

    100 years ago, had we asked a chemical-plant manager how they ensured high yield and safe operation, they would have replied 'intuition' - now the whole system is computer controlled, following a disciplined science. 50 years ago, had we asked a logistics manager how they decided on delivery routes, they would have replied 'experience' - now it is done by a proven reliable method.

    40 years ago, had we asked a bank manager how they appraised a customer loan application, they would have replied 'intuition' or 'experience' - now it is done by disciplined credit-scoring systems that routinely beat managerial judgement [and look at the price we all just paid for ignoring that discipline!]

    30 years ago, had we asked an airline executive how they set prices they would have replied 'intuition' - now they use sophisticated, methodical yield management systems.

    The story seems to be one of increasing penetration of proven method at the expense of human intuition - even going beyond physical systems and encroaching on systems rife with human behavioural features.

    It looks like management is amongst the last of very few professions where human intuition is more highly regarded than working stuff out.

    I would concede that, in the absence of reliable known method, 'experience' is valuable - but experience is the accumulation of tacit knowledge about how things work - not uninformed gut-feel. I would also concede that there are critical issues about managing people and organisations that are not easily subject to method. But for the more substantive management choices and decisions, we all pay a very heavy price, whether as investors, customers, consumers or simply people with a pension, for the continued reliance on management intuition. Successful gamblers are rare, and we are too often led by management who like to game with other people's money and livelihoods, urged on by business media and investor-representatives who know little more than to follow people who seem to be those few successful gamblers.

    It's time to recognise and promote the thoughtful evaluation and risk assessment that would be expected if management - especially strategic management - were professionally done.

    Now I'll go hide under the table again!

    Kim Warren

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: 22 October 2009 18:46
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Given that conscious attention and analysis is a scarce cognitive resource and like a muscle can become exhausted (See Baumeister's work), the large majority of the decisions we make are through the (intuitive) system 1 route which relies on activation of behavioural repetoires via emotional weighting of stimuli and prior experience. The conscious analytical system 2 route is fairly rare. Even when we think we are engaging in careful analysis we are often just seeking justification for a decision we have already made.

    I am very fond of a quote from the gambler and bon viveur John Aspinal as a starting point for discussions about decison making.

    " Reason is the worst possible guide to human affairs. It is the undertaker that you send in after the battle to explain the logic of the affair. Instinct and prejudice are much better guides"

    Well if we take seriously my arguments above it suggests it may be more productive to improve the much higher proportion  of decisions we take through the system 1 route.

    You may argue that even if I am right, that this hardly helps us think about how to teach decision-making - how do you improve intuition? In fact there are some already well established routes. First the literature on expertise points to the role of deliberate practice in domains of expertise as important to improving automacity. Second work on naturalistic decision-making is producing some very interesting traning methods. See for example Gary Klein's work on recognition primed decision-making with the fire service and military. Finally, people like Eugene Sadler-Smith are developing teaching approaches to improving intuition.


     
    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Business School

    Walton Hall

    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA

    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong [JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG]

    Sent: 22 October 2009 03:21 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Jack,

    I don't disagree with your quote, however, perception is all there is,

    and to many a decision is just a choice.  To others it is a commitment

    to action.  Though I agree that a decision is of no use without action,

    some just don't see that very easily.  Perhaps that is what makes this

    subject a teaching opportunity.

    Jerry


     
    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

                                                         T.S. Eliot

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [ mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring

    Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:35 PM

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    I suggest that this view highlights not two thoughts but two phrases of

    one sentence. As Vic Vroom has said, one without the other is

    meaningless.

    Perhaps it is this assertion that merits some dialogue.

    Jack Ring

    > ----- Original Message -----

    > From: <nickols@att.net>

    > To: <MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU>

    > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 12:34 PM

    > Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    >

    >

    > The difference between a decision as a choice and a decision as a

    > commitment to a course of action.  Similarly, the difference between

    > decision-making as choosing and decision-making as making a

    commitment.

    >>

    >> --

    > Regards,

    >>

    > Fred Nickols

    > Managing Partner

    > Distance Consulting, LLC

    > nickols@att.net

    > www.nickols.us <http://www.nickols.us/>

    >>

    > "Assistance at A Distance"

    >>

    >

    ________________________________

    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).




    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).
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  • 19.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 13:22

    Kim,

     

    You said: "The discussion raises one other question for me – much of the post-crisis debate has focused on the alleged questionable ethics of senior management, and the failure of governance systems. I don't know what others' experience has been, but it is not my impression that senior managers are generally without scruples or ethics. Most seem to be well-meaning people genuinely trying to do their best. But if they are not equipped with reliable ways of assessing what 'best' is, they will likely continue to make mistakes. And as for governance – if those supervisors also do not know what 'best' looks like, how are they going to know when to blow the whistle and stop the most hot-headed executives?"

     

    Well said!  I agree with you that most executives, managers, and supervisors are just trying to do their best.  I believe that we touched on this in a previous discussion towards the beginning of the summer regarding ethics and what business schools can do to change things.  I seem to recall that a lot of the discussion was surrounding personal values clarification rather than on the systemic issues. 

     

    So the next question is: "How do we create those systems that are more capable of allowing for better, long-term decision making, and what will they look like?" 

     

    Make a Great Day!

     

    Gary Lear, President & CEO

    Author of Leadership Lessons From the Medicine Wheel: The Seven Elements of High Performance

     

    Resource Development Systems LLC

    Managing the Human Side of Business (sm)  

     

    gelear@rds-net.com   www.ResourceDevelopmentSystems.com

     

    (c) 2009 permission denied to use this post in any other forum or in any way other than on the discussion list that it was originally posted.

     



  • 20.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 14:23
    Hi:
         It may be helpful to distinguish between "unethical behavior" (UB) and other forms of organizational misconduct.  In most instances one is justified in thinking of UB as a "failure" of some sort insofar as the person/Mgr. may be presumed to be motivated at least partly by wanting to do the right thing, but is hindered by personal temptation, extrinsic pressures, etc.  Hence, the term ethical dilemma, and the failure to live up to self-endorsed norms.
         In contrast, most instances of organizational misbehavior (OMB), misconduct, misrepresentation, and corruption are largely intentional.  [Which is not to say that there are not instances of borderline actions that would fit the characterization of "intentionally unethical" behavior.]
         One of the useful aspects of the distinction are the implications regarding shaping ethical conduct and discouraging misbehavior.  E.g., mere educational activities and Codes of Conduct can be expected to be helpful with re to discouraging UB, but largely irrelevant re OMB and corruption.....
         Regards.
    J>
     
    ================================
    Joel Lefkowitz, Ph.D., ABPP
    Emeritus Professor of Psychology 
    Baruch College and The Graduate Center 
    City University of New York
    Box B8-215
    55 Lexington Avenue
    NYC, NY 10010
    Tel.:  (646) 312-3789
    Fax:  (646) 312-3781


    From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of Gary Lear
    Sent: Tue 10/27/2009 1:22 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Kim,

     

    You said: "The discussion raises one other question for me – much of the post-crisis debate has focused on the alleged questionable ethics of senior management, and the failure of governance systems. I don't know what others' experience has been, but it is not my impression that senior managers are generally without scruples or ethics. Most seem to be well-meaning people genuinely trying to do their best. But if they are not equipped with reliable ways of assessing what 'best' is, they will likely continue to make mistakes. And as for governance – if those supervisors also do not know what 'best' looks like, how are they going to know when to blow the whistle and stop the most hot-headed executives?"

     

    Well said!  I agree with you that most executives, managers, and supervisors are just trying to do their best.  I believe that we touched on this in a previous discussion towards the beginning of the summer regarding ethics and what business schools can do to change things.  I seem to recall that a lot of the discussion was surrounding personal values clarification rather than on the systemic issues. 

     

    So the next question is: "How do we create those systems that are more capable of allowing for better, long-term decision making, and what will they look like?" 

     

    Make a Great Day!

     

    Gary Lear, President & CEO

    Author of Leadership Lessons From the Medicine Wheel: The Seven Elements of High Performance

     

    Resource Development Systems LLC

    Managing the Human Side of Business (sm)  

     

    gelear@rds-net.com   www.ResourceDevelopmentSystems.com

     

    (c) 2009 permission denied to use this post in any other forum or in any way other than on the discussion list that it was originally posted.

     



  • 21.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 15:14
    Not sure I want to write a paper, it seems the research is there, it's just that nobody seems to read it.  So, I'll share a paragraph and see what that stimulates.
     
    In early 2005, California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger proposed attacking school performance problems with merit pay for teachers.  He didn't talk about the evidence that supported this idea, perhaps because little exists.  Decades of research have failed to produce evidence that merit pay in schools has positive effects on learning.  Or consider health care, particularly patient safety and the prevention of unnecessary death and complications.  Study after study confirms that when hospitals have a higher ratiio of nurses to patients and limit nurses' work hours, patients have lower death rates and fewer complications and infections.  Yet few of these insights have been implemented, and hospital administrators routinely resist mandated nursing staffing ratios and work hours.  When it comes to public policy, education, and health care, much like management, ideology and false hope regularly trump the evidence -- which wastes both money and lives.
     
    Hard facts, dangerous half-truths & total nonsense, Jeffrey Pfeffer, and Robert Sutton, (2006) Harvard Business School Press, Boston, Mass. pgs 218 - 219.
     
    Our own self interest tends to filter data and our decision making personally, I suggest it applies organizationally as well.
     
    Jerry
     
    Jerrold Strong, M.A.
    Staff Development
    AC Transit
    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318
    Oakland, CA 94612
    510-891-4840
     
    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."
                                                         T.S. Eliot
     


    From: DidacticRa@aol.com [mailto:DidacticRa@aol.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:37 AM
    To: Jerrold Strong
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    In a message dated 10/27/2009 3:13:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG writes:
    This might be useful in the discussion.
    Hi, Jerry:
     
    It could very well be.
     
    Can you write up a short paper for the discussion and we can circulate it to see who might be interested to respond with comments?  Might you be willing to do that?
     
    Regards,
     
    Erwin


  • 22.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 15:18

    Good Morning,

    If people are interested in the free windows gui based analytics / data mining software called Rattle which has decision support modelling capability. Then Rattle is available at www.togaware.com . I have included the software authors email in this email. Rattle is used all over the world already in many businesses, some universities, and government bodies. It does sit within the R environment, and that gives access to over 1600 other software packages, many which have tools for analysis and decision making. However, there is some need for basic computer programing in R, hence why Rattle is such a God Send, because in under 10 mouse clicks, you can load, run, evaluate, and score a dataset, if the dataset is already cleaned and ready. I dont know how many people already know about R and this tool, sp please excuse me if I am repeating what you already now. I just thought the list might have been interested, because it is free to use.


    I am currently trying to write up the methodology, if people are interested, in a shortish description. Below is a very smallish description I did for a newsletter for Australia which was republished in the USA. The topic was about the fringe developments and new thinking in the area of analytics, and how we are emerging from the 2000 years of dark ages, and realising the error of the pasts in regards to understanding our world, and the faulty tools we have been using to try and understand it.


    Nolan’s Peer Relativity Profiling Index
    This is a process to apply Einstein’s logic of relativity to data-mining and analytical modelling. It takes descriptive variables and creates a series of sub populations for each value within a descriptive variable. It then takes the key performance indexes, or measurement variables, and assigns them to subpopulation groups, which are relevant according to their membership of that particular subpopulation. For example, gender, age, postcode, and other variables, are assigned to define subpopulations, and income, spending, and savings can be used as measurement variables; these can help determine an individual’s position within their specific subpopulation. Importantly, this approach can assign an individual with a position percentage. For example, if a male living in an Australian suburb earns $40,000 per year and the highest income level in that suburb is $120,000 then our individual would get a percentage position of around 33 percent. Then, by combining other measurements and variables such as spending and savings, and cascading other subpopulations with the identical measurement strings, provides a type of profiling. This type of profiling was originally developed as part of a safety audit for the ProDigy project, which involved Decision Intelligence Group, the University of Technology Sydney and the New South Wales Police Force’s North Shore Local Area Command. The safety audit examined ten different factors4 which have an environmental impact and examined expectations, experiences, and applied a qualitative feedback mechanism. The project is designed to turn the  expectations and experiences measures for day and night into measurement strings, whereby the various subpopulations will be defined by the ten factors. The outcome should be a system which can match people’s perceptions of risk and safety, across a range of locations, relative to the perceived risk. These profiled locations are then cross referenced with metadata gleaned from criminal statistics, which will search for like patterns. The final goal of this analytical tool is to identify criminal behaviour trends though people’s perceptions, and identify key factors to alter people’s behaviour, reduce the perception of opportunity, and undertake targeted tactical operations to catch criminals by law enforcement agencies. As many nations, including Australia, continue to experience an operating environment characterised by greater uncertainty, analytics provide a tool for analysts and decision-makers alike to gain a better understanding of those factors which influence and shape future conditions. Utilising a variety of new and emerging analytical tools allow a better understanding and appreciation of complex and important issues that will have an impact on Australia’s future.

    The ten factors are: personal safety, noise, lighting, visibility, signage, access/traffic/transport, provision of services, general maintenance, other persons, and security.


    Regards
    Tony Nolan
    UTS CRICOS Provider Code: 00099F
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    Please consider the environment before printing this email.



  • 23.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 16:20
    In a message dated 10/27/2009 1:35:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, GaryL@MARKET-ENGINEERING.COM writes:
    Tony Nolan: (We might chat outside the MG-ED venue.)
     
    You seem to have developed a tool supporting decisions.  I observe that you don't mention what kind of decisions or what types of data apply.
     
    Indeed, in terms of presenting an invention to a market, you've only mentioned name and functionality.
     
    In a different listserv conversation, I was prompted by a wise gentleman to consider envisioning all the core decisions that must be made to effectively launch a business.  Launching a product would require a subset.
     
    I settled for 25.  Each, of course, is achieved by decision processes, so the simple sum hides a much larger number. Though undefined here, the list for businesses shows concept:

    Name, Functional Class, Short Description, Future Intentions, Segments, Customers / Stakeholders, Needs, Value, Competitive arena(s), Competitive factors, Uniqueness, Position, Slogan, Value promise, Brand concept, Mission, Goals, Objectives, Strategies / Tactics, Business model, Values, Principles of Operation, Core roles, Driving factors, Vision statement

    Hi, Gary,
     
    Why not keep going to put a short paper together?
     
    Regards,
     
    Erwin
     


  • 24.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-27-2009 17:11

    Hi Gary,

     

    I agree with you that dealing with the systemic issues is critical. I believe that personal values clarification is also critical because it can be an internal gyroscope in turbulent times when the right thing to do is not obvious.  So it seems to me that it's not one or the other, but both since they can be mutually supportive and leverage their impact.

     

    Best regards,

     

    Manny

     

    Manny Elkind

    Executive Education and Development

    Mindtech, Inc.

    35 Williams Road

    Sharon, MA 02067 USA

    Business Tel: 781-784-2315

    Home Tel: 781-784-7787

    Fax: 781-784-4764

    E-mail: melkind@mindtech3.com

    Website: www.mindtech3.com

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Lear
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:22 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    Kim,

     

    You said: "The discussion raises one other question for me – much of the post-crisis debate has focused on the alleged questionable ethics of senior management, and the failure of governance systems. I don't know what others' experience has been, but it is not my impression that senior managers are generally without scruples or ethics. Most seem to be well-meaning people genuinely trying to do their best. But if they are not equipped with reliable ways of assessing what 'best' is, they will likely continue to make mistakes. And as for governance – if those supervisors also do not know what 'best' looks like, how are they going to know when to blow the whistle and stop the most hot-headed executives?"

     

    Well said!  I agree with you that most executives, managers, and supervisors are just trying to do their best.  I believe that we touched on this in a previous discussion towards the beginning of the summer regarding ethics and what business schools can do to change things.  I seem to recall that a lot of the discussion was surrounding personal values clarification rather than on the systemic issues. 

     

    So the next question is: "How do we create those systems that are more capable of allowing for better, long-term decision making, and what will they look like?" 

     

    Make a Great Day!

     

    Gary Lear, President & CEO

    Author of Leadership Lessons From the Medicine Wheel: The Seven Elements of High Performance

     

    Resource Development Systems LLC

    Managing the Human Side of Business (sm)  

     

    gelear@rds-net.com   www.ResourceDevelopmentSystems.com

     

    (c) 2009 permission denied to use this post in any other forum or in any way other than on the discussion list that it was originally posted.

     



  • 25.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-28-2009 06:23
    My reflection on these two comments together is that both are very useful. The question seems to be "What is best?" Best for whom? How do we decide what is best for the nation. We know from our familiarity with micro and macro economics that what is best for the individual is often not best for the Nation (according to the measures we currently have and how we interpret those measures).

    Philosophical ethics addresses allocation of harms and benefits. As a Nation, the US prides itself on how much it consumes. Our driving measures of how well we are doing as a country are GNP and employment. And, business majors do not study philosophical ethics to any extent.

    The system has been structured such that those not in the labor force have less access to healthcare.

    I am out of time. Certainly topics available for decision-making discussions at the highest level. I'm beginning to think business majors need less business training and more philosophy, sociology, and politics.


    ________________________________
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mansfield Elkind [melkind@MINDTECH3.COM]
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 5:10 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Hi Gary,

    I agree with you that dealing with the systemic issues is critical. I believe that personal values clarification is also critical because it can be an internal gyroscope in turbulent times when the right thing to do is not obvious. So it seems to me that it’s not one or the other, but both since they can be mutually supportive and leverage their impact.

    Best regards,

    Manny

    Manny Elkind
    Executive Education and Development
    Mindtech, Inc.
    35 Williams Road
    Sharon, MA 02067 USA
    Business Tel: 781-784-2315
    Home Tel: 781-784-7787
    Fax: 781-784-4764
    E-mail: melkind@mindtech3.com
    Website: www.mindtech3.com

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Lear
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:22 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Kim,

    You said: “The discussion raises one other question for me – much of the post-crisis debate has focused on the alleged questionable ethics of senior management, and the failure of governance systems. I don’t know what others’ experience has been, but it is not my impression that senior managers are generally without scruples or ethics. Most seem to be well-meaning people genuinely trying to do their best. But if they are not equipped with reliable ways of assessing what ‘best’ is, they will likely continue to make mistakes. And as for governance – if those supervisors also do not know what ‘best’ looks like, how are they going to know when to blow the whistle and stop the most hot-headed executives?”

    Well said! I agree with you that most executives, managers, and supervisors are just trying to do their best. I believe that we touched on this in a previous discussion towards the beginning of the summer regarding ethics and what business schools can do to change things. I seem to recall that a lot of the discussion was surrounding personal values clarification rather than on the systemic issues.

    So the next question is: “How do we create those systems that are more capable of allowing for better, long-term decision making, and what will they look like?”

    Make a Great Day!

    Gary Lear, President & CEO
    Author of Leadership Lessons From the Medicine Wheel: The Seven Elements of High Performance

    Resource Development Systems LLC
    Managing the Human Side of Business (sm)

    gelear@rds-net.com<mailto:gelear@rds-net.com> www.ResourceDevelopmentSystems.com<http://www.resourcedevelopmentsystems.com/>

    (c) 2009 permission denied to use this post in any other forum or in any way other than on the discussion list that it was originally posted.


  • 26.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-28-2009 06:29

    I think that much of the problem in our teaching about decision making is that too often we start with a normative model. How you 'should' make a decision. It seems to me that a better starting point is with good description of how decisions really get made and why and to approach this in the spirit of appreciative enquiry.

     

    For example in business schools we tend to teach that calculating net present value is the gold standard for making decisions on the viability of projects. In practice many managers don't do this even though they are aware of the arguments for NPV. Are they just stupid? Well experience shows that NPV calculations are very dependent on the assumptions made and people are prone to underestimate distant risks. Also modest sized firms (the majority), live or die on the basis of cash flow. For these reasons among others many managers prefer to rely on simply robust measures of viability such as payback period, which favour projects delivering returns in a timescale where the risks are more knowable. In larger firms where NPV is part of the discourse about project viability, the numbers (which can be manipulated) are often a cover for a more political decision-making process.

     

    Philip Tetlock (1991) identifies three competing metaphors employed for understanding human decision making:

    • people as naïve economists (rational perspective)
    • people as naïve psychologists (psychological perspective) and
    • people as naïve politicians (social perspective).

     

    Financial economics, for example, rests on the first approach. People are seen as making rational judgements in pursuit of maximum expected utility. In some variants people are modelled as making such judgements effectively; more pessimistic versions assume limited capabilities. While the rational-economic perspective on decision making has met with great success, not least because it is easy to model mathematically, there is abundant evidence that it is a poor description of individual behaviour.

     

    The second, psychological perspective, approach sees people as driven to achieve cognitive mastery of their environment. Again, there are more optimistic and more pessimistic versions. The more optimistic describe people who make effective use of lay versions of formal logical and statistical procedures to arrive at conclusions about the physical world and the behaviour of others (Kelley, 1967).

     

    While the more pessimistic depict us as cognitive misers, prone to a wide range of systematic failings of judgement and biases (Nisbett and Ross, 1980), there is increasing evidence that we move between both extremes – switching from simple heuristics to more complex cognitive strategies in response to the importance of the situation and desired outcomes (Fiske and Taylor, 1991).

    What both the economic and psychological perspectives have in common is the notion of people as limited-capacity information processors and the concept of 'bounded rationality' (Simon, 1957): that is, there are limits to the cognitive and information-processing capacity we can devote to any judgement.

     

    Both perspectives also focus on individual behaviour rather than social processes. This is the starting point for the third sociological perspective identified by Tetlock: people as naïve politicians. In this approach people are seen as acting to manage the social world they inhabit. An important goal in decision making is satisfying the constituencies to which the individual feels accountable. The key question from this perspective is 'What strategies do people use in managing accountability to social groups and norms?' This is the domain of sociology and of institutional theory in particular.

     

    Jerry's example from the Peffer and Sutton paper probably requires us  to consider the social construction of decision criteria in a public policy environment and the way in which the politics (small p) of decision-making play out. Attempts to enjoin decision-makers to 'be more rational' are unlikely to have much traction. There is more than one rationality at work here.

     

    (NB some of the above is taken from some open content teaching materials (available for modification and reuse) I authored which can be found here http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/course/view.php?id=1588)

     

     

    Best regards

     

    Mark

     

    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Professor of Organisational Behaviour, Open University Business School

    Director Centre for Practice-Based Professional Learning
    Walton Hall
    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA
    United Kingdom

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk
    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804
    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

     

     

     

     

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jerrold Strong
    Sent: 27 October 2009 19:14
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    Not sure I want to write a paper, it seems the research is there, it's just that nobody seems to read it.  So, I'll share a paragraph and see what that stimulates.

     

    In early 2005, California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger proposed attacking school performance problems with merit pay for teachers.  He didn't talk about the evidence that supported this idea, perhaps because little exists.  Decades of research have failed to produce evidence that merit pay in schools has positive effects on learning.  Or consider health care, particularly patient safety and the prevention of unnecessary death and complications.  Study after study confirms that when hospitals have a higher ratiio of nurses to patients and limit nurses' work hours, patients have lower death rates and fewer complications and infections.  Yet few of these insights have been implemented, and hospital administrators routinely resist mandated nursing staffing ratios and work hours.  When it comes to public policy, education, and health care, much like management, ideology and false hope regularly trump the evidence -- which wastes both money and lives.

     

    Hard facts, dangerous half-truths & total nonsense, Jeffrey Pfeffer, and Robert Sutton, (2006) Harvard Business School Press, Boston, Mass. pgs 218 - 219.

     

    Our own self interest tends to filter data and our decision making personally, I suggest it applies organizationally as well.

     

    Jerry

     

    Jerrold Strong, M.A.

    Staff Development

    AC Transit

    1600 Franklin Street, Suite 318

    Oakland, CA 94612

    510-891-4840

     

    "Everyone gets the experience; some get the lesson."

                                                         T.S. Eliot

     

     


    From: DidacticRa@aol.com [mailto:DidacticRa@aol.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:37 AM
    To: Jerrold Strong
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    In a message dated 10/27/2009 3:13:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JStrong@ACTRANSIT.ORG writes:

    This might be useful in the discussion.

    Hi, Jerry:

     

    It could very well be.

     

    Can you write up a short paper for the discussion and we can circulate it to see who might be interested to respond with comments?  Might you be willing to do that?

     

    Regards,

     

    Erwin




    The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).


  • 27.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-28-2009 09:11

    I'm struck again by the energy in the debate streams in the MED division.  And would like to add 2 cents worth. 

     

    First, I've come to believe that we have developed in the US a "culture of extraction" in which the primary focus among business people and students seems to be how much and how quickly they can extract wealth from the system.  Early theorists on capitalism pointed out that the system depends on men of good character.  Since then, though, it seems that the invisible market hand is a self serving hand.  And therefore requires oversight.  When we removed in 1999 the constraints of the Glass-Steagal Act of 1933 which was designed to separate banking and speculation somebody apparently believed that modern man was somehow more ethical than 20th Century man.  Less than a decade later, we slipped into a similarly significant financial crisis marked by widespread questionable ethics.  What percentage of Americans have an "ethic of the commons" that prevents them from littering, stealing, lying, cutting corners, abusing the company expense account, and looking for any and all tax loopholes?  I observe informally a trend among students over the last 20 years that seems to be aligning more and more with this emerging trend in society-how can I get mine regardless of my legacy?  Fewer students (some still do) talk about creating something rather than extracting as much as they can from the system.

     

    Lately in discussions with a faculty team here, a hexagonal decision frame emerged.  The corners or foci or phoroptor lenses seemed to be the following:

     

                    Ethical (is the behavior acceptable according to a code developed by a professional group implied or explicit)

                    Legal (is the behavior legal)

                    Cultural (is the behavior tolerated or endorsed by the prevailing culture?)

                    Financial (does the behavior meet the current financial objectives?)

                    Strategic (does the behavior fit our strategic designs?)

                    Moral (does the behavior match our individual VABEs [values, assumptions, beliefs, and expectations about the way the world is or should be]?)

     

    At a minimum, these six factors would seem to affect business decisions.  I've used this hexagonal framework with Exec Ed and consulting clients and it plays well. 

     

    Anyway, I think the link between personal choices and organizational choices is not so tenuous-that people while proclaiming themselves to be ethical often make illegal and in my view immoral decisions while in office.  Transparency and oversight seem to be necessary to protect the whole.  Getting them is another matter.

     

    Regards,

     

       Jim

    James G. S. Clawson

    Johnson & Higgins Professor of Business Administration

    Darden GSB, University of Virginia

    Box 6550, Charlottesville, VA 22906  

    100 Darden Boulevard, Charlottesville, VA 22903  USA

    Tel:  434 924 7488              Fax:  434 243 7680

    Web:  http://faculty.darden.virginia.edu/clawsonj

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mansfield Elkind
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 5:11 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    Hi Gary,

     

    I agree with you that dealing with the systemic issues is critical. I believe that personal values clarification is also critical because it can be an internal gyroscope in turbulent times when the right thing to do is not obvious.  So it seems to me that it's not one or the other, but both since they can be mutually supportive and leverage their impact.

     

    Best regards,

     

    Manny

     

    Manny Elkind

    Executive Education and Development

    Mindtech, Inc.

    35 Williams Road

    Sharon, MA 02067 USA

    Business Tel: 781-784-2315

    Home Tel: 781-784-7787

    Fax: 781-784-4764

    E-mail: melkind@mindtech3.com

    Website: www.mindtech3.com

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Lear
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:22 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    Kim,

     

    You said: "The discussion raises one other question for me – much of the post-crisis debate has focused on the alleged questionable ethics of senior management, and the failure of governance systems. I don't know what others' experience has been, but it is not my impression that senior managers are generally without scruples or ethics. Most seem to be well-meaning people genuinely trying to do their best. But if they are not equipped with reliable ways of assessing what 'best' is, they will likely continue to make mistakes. And as for governance – if those supervisors also do not know what 'best' looks like, how are they going to know when to blow the whistle and stop the most hot-headed executives?"

     

    Well said!  I agree with you that most executives, managers, and supervisors are just trying to do their best.  I believe that we touched on this in a previous discussion towards the beginning of the summer regarding ethics and what business schools can do to change things.  I seem to recall that a lot of the discussion was surrounding personal values clarification rather than on the systemic issues. 

     

    So the next question is: "How do we create those systems that are more capable of allowing for better, long-term decision making, and what will they look like?" 

     

    Make a Great Day!

     

    Gary Lear, President & CEO

    Author of Leadership Lessons From the Medicine Wheel: The Seven Elements of High Performance

     

    Resource Development Systems LLC

    Managing the Human Side of Business (sm)  

     

    gelear@rds-net.com   www.ResourceDevelopmentSystems.com

     

    (c) 2009 permission denied to use this post in any other forum or in any way other than on the discussion list that it was originally posted.

     



  • 28.  Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

    Posted 10-28-2009 10:29

    Manny,

     

    If we go back to our original discussion on this, the prevailing attitude seemed to be that we needed to provide MORE emphasis on individual values clarification and that would solve the problem.  But as was also pointed out, by the time most students arrive in the classroom their basic values have probably already been fairly set.  Sure, some sort of values clarification, or perhaps we should say values prioritization, might help.  But if you have a system that doesn't allow for the use of that values clarification or values prioritization, then its not that useful, is it? 

     

    As Kim shared, most managers aren't "bad."  They are simply a product of a system.  I used to work and train officers in the criminal justice system.  As I used to share with them, there are a lot of good people who did bad things that are in the criminal justice system (jail, prison, probation, parole).  Yes, there are some really bad people who did bad things, too, but they are far fewer than we would like to believe.  Most just made poor decisions based on what they knew and had learned given the systems that they are living in.  No, it doesn't excuse their decisions or their behavior, but it still doesn't make them a "bad" person.    

     

    I believe that the same thing is true for most managers.  Until we teach managers how to create better systems in their organizations that allow for better decision making, then all the individual values clarification in the world isn't going to make much of a difference.  But if we teach them how to create those better systems in their organization, then the values that they already have will be allowed to be utilized. 

     

    So, sure, we can deal with the individual values as we are teaching them how to build those systems, but while I hear a lot about personal values clarification and personal ethics being taught in most business schools already, I don't hear a whole lot about teaching how to build the systems.    

     

    Make a Great Day!

     

    Gary Lear, President & CEO

    Author of Leadership Lessons From the Medicine Wheel: The Seven Elements of High Performance

     

    Resource Development Systems LLC

    Managing the Human Side of Business (sm)  

     

    gelear@rds-net.com   www.ResourceDevelopmentSystems.com

     

    (c) 2009 permission denied to use this post in any other forum or in any way other than on the discussion list that it was originally posted.

     


    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mansfield Elkind
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 5:11 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    Hi Gary,

     

    I agree with you that dealing with the systemic issues is critical. I believe that personal values clarification is also critical because it can be an internal gyroscope in turbulent times when the right thing to do is not obvious.  So it seems to me that it's not one or the other, but both since they can be mutually supportive and leverage their impact.

     

    Best regards,

     

    Manny

     

    Manny Elkind

    Executive Education and Development

    Mindtech, Inc.

    <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">35 Williams Road</st1:address></st1:street>

    <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Sharon</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">MA</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">02067</st1:postalcode> <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:place>

    Business Tel: 781-784-2315

    Home Tel: 781-784-7787

    Fax: 781-784-4764

    E-mail: melkind@mindtech3.com

    Website: www.mindtech3.com

     

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Lear
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:22 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Wanted - ideas for a debate on decision-making

     

    Kim,

     

    You said: "The discussion raises one other question for me – much of the post-crisis debate has focused on the alleged questionable ethics of senior management, and the failure of governance systems. I don't know what others' experience has been, but it is not my impression that senior managers are generally without scruples or ethics. Most seem to be well-meaning people genuinely trying to do their best. But if they are not equipped with reliable ways of assessing what 'best' is, they will likely continue to make mistakes. And as for governance – if those supervisors also do not know what 'best' looks like, how are they going to know when to blow the whistle and stop the most hot-headed executives?"

     

    Well said!  I agree with you that most executives, managers, and supervisors are just trying to do their best.  I believe that we touched on this in a previous discussion towards the beginning of the summer regarding ethics and what business schools can do to change things.  I seem to recall that a lot of the discussion was surrounding personal values clarification rather than on the systemic issues. 

     

    So the next question is: "How do we create those systems that are more capable of allowing for better, long-term decision making, and what will they look like?" 

     

    Make a Great Day!

     

    Gary Lear, President & CEO

    Author of Leadership Lessons From the Medicine Wheel: The Seven Elements of High Performance

     

    Resource Development Systems LLC

    Managing the Human Side of Business (sm)  

     

    gelear@rds-net.com   www.ResourceDevelopmentSystems.com

     

    (c) 2009 permission denied to use this post in any other forum or in any way other than on the discussion list that it was originally posted.