Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 14:33
    Larry,

    I'd appreciate the ACES and other materials you offered. If you'd rather
    send electronic copies, please do.

    Gary
    12006 N. Antelope Trail
    Parker, CO 80138
    GaryL@Market-Engineering.com
    ----------------------------
    Innovation Catalyst
    Process Accelerator
    Gary Lundquist
    President - Market Engineering International
    www.Market-Engineering.com
    Chair - The Colorado Innovation Summit
    www.InnovationSummit.com
    303-840-9929


  • 2.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 16:13
    Hi Larry,
    I would be interested to see the materials if you can forward some to me,
    please?
    Thanks, Sue
    Sue Vickers-Thompson,
    Church Cottage, Church Lane,
    Middleton Cheney,
    Banbury, OX17 2NR

    Tel: +44-(0)1295-711115 Mobile 07710-495-493
    Fax: +44-(0)1295-710808
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Larry Pate" <larry@pate.org>
    To: <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:05 PM
    Subject: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal


    Michael Ayers asks a good question (re: Simon's concept of "design activity"
    versus Bolman & Deal's work on "reframing"), one that easily could take a
    good book to fully answer. However, briefly, I'll say that I think the
    value to Simon's distinction is that it tells us precisely why there is such
    variance in individual choices, and even inconsistencies within individuals
    in the choices we make. I see Simon as kind of this all-knowing, all-seeing
    guru who plops down on our planet for a time and who tells us in simple
    terms why we're both screwing up and getting it right. I don't mean that
    literally, of course, but metaphorically. He tells us people make different
    choices because they have different information and that they use the
    information they have differently. How more elegant can it get? No wonder
    Simon is a Nobel Laureate (for his work in decision-making).

    But, hearing Simon's distinction or even agreeing with it is not enough. If
    Kurt Lewin was correct that, "there is nothing so practical as a good
    theory," then the important thing is to go from understanding to action.
    Knowing the essential components of decision-making does not in itself
    prevent us from falling into common decision traps, or what has been called
    the "unwanted repetitive episodes" of faulty decision-making. And in that
    is where Bolman & Deal's work on reframing, and even some of my own work in
    developing the ACES Decision-Making Technique, adds value. In short,
    knowing is one thing; translating that knowledge into purposeful action is
    another.

    Thus, in answer to your question, no, I don't think Simon's distinction is
    any "better" or "worse" than what Bolman & Deal talk about, but I do think
    the focus is quite different. It's like Simon pointed the way and now
    Bolman & Deal are helping people to understand how to get there. The
    various "frames" they talk about are but examples of the seemingly endless
    varieties of possibilities. We might see it this way, we might see it that.
    By offering sets of possibilities people can see that their own initial
    frame is not the only one, and not even necessarily the "best" one. It's
    like living in Fargo your whole life and never knowing anything else (i.e.,
    single frame) versus having traveled all over the planet and seeing how lots
    of people in lots of different settings do things (i.e., multiple frames).
    That, to me, is the value in exploring various frames, even if the limited
    frames Bolman & Deal give us are at best only close approximations of any
    particular frame we might hold at any particular point in time.

    Imagine, for example, a police officer with 12 years police experience who
    hates his job, but who needs 20 years police service to receive full
    retirement benefits. He might believe that he has only two choices --
    either stay for another 8 years in a job he hates or quit and lose his
    retirement. Now also imagine that a reason he thinks he can't quit is that
    he believes his wife will never move. With this "frame" he remains stuck in
    defensive avoidance (Janis & Mann), rather than moving toward vigilance.
    What would it take to get unstuck? The answer is, something that helps him
    change the frame. As it turns out, this is not just a made-up example it's
    a real issue that was raised in one of my decision-making seminars. By
    applying the ACES technique and looking at his assumptions ("wife will not
    move") and counter-assumptions ("wife will move"), the police officer was
    able to see things differently and get unstuck. While this example stems
    from use of the ACES technique, the same could be said for the work of
    Bolman & Deal or others who also encourage people to view things
    differently. As Karl Weick says when he talks about mutating metaphors,
    "Believing is seeing." The more we can understand about the various lenses
    people use for solving problems, the more prescriptive we can be when
    helping people make more informed choices.

    Finally, Michael also asks for a good reference on Simon's work, and I would
    suggest either the original source or the "Decision Making" module that Mike
    Driver and I wrote for McGraw-Hill. Send me a mailing address and I'll be
    glad to send a copy of the module to you. Same for my work on ACES, if
    you're interested.

    Best,

    Larry Pate
    Redondo Beach, California


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:21 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind

    Larry replied in part:

    <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis on
    "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others, have
    written about.>>

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or mindset
    or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior to the 'frame'
    approach?

    Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon (I'd
    appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I have moderate
    exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter suggest the
    're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that conclusion by offering
    a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ... and perhaps unintentionally
    depriving the observer from creating her/his own set of useful frames.

    Michael A

    Michael Ayers
    mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 3.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-07-2004 16:49
    Please include me in your distribution of the McGraw-Hill module on
    decision-making, along with materials on the ACES decision-making
    technique.
    Thanks!
    Jean-Claude Provost

    Manager, HR & Compensation Planning
    Department of Human Resources
    McGill University
    688 Sherbrooke West, # 1520
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3A 3R1

    Tel.: (514) 398-2301
    jean-claude.provost@mcgill.ca






    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:03 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Yes, of course. I'll be glad to send copies of the McGraw-Hill module
    on decision-making, along with materials on the ACES decision-making
    technique.
    Several people have written to ask for copies. If anyone else wants
    them, just send me a mailing address. Thanks.

    Best,

    Larry

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:49 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Larry:

    Although I didn't ask, I'd like copies of the materials you offered
    Michael.

    Fred Nickols
    8810 Woodgate Manor Ct
    Fort Myers, FL 33908

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    nickols@att.net


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-
    > DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 12:05 PM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal
    >
    > Michael Ayers asks a good question (re: Simon's concept of "design
    > activity" versus Bolman & Deal's work on "reframing"), one that easily

    > could take a good book to fully answer. However, briefly, I'll say
    > that I think the value to Simon's distinction is that it tells us
    > precisely why there is such variance in individual choices, and even
    > inconsistencies within individuals in the choices we make. I see
    > Simon as kind of this all-knowing, all- seeing guru who plops down on
    > our planet for a time and who tells us in simple terms why we're both
    > screwing up and getting it right. I don't mean that literally, of
    > course, but metaphorically. He tells us people make different choices

    > because they have different information and that they use the
    > information they have differently. How more elegant can it get? No
    > wonder Simon is a Nobel Laureate (for his work in decision-making).
    >
    > But, hearing Simon's distinction or even agreeing with it is not
    > enough. If Kurt Lewin was correct that, "there is nothing so practical

    > as a good theory," then the important thing is to go from
    > understanding to action. Knowing the essential components of
    > decision-making does not in itself prevent us from falling into common

    > decision traps, or what has been called the "unwanted repetitive
    > episodes" of faulty decision-making. And in that is where Bolman &
    > Deal's work on reframing, and even some of my own work in developing
    > the ACES Decision-Making Technique, adds value. In short, knowing is
    > one thing; translating that knowledge into purposeful action is
    > another.
    >
    > Thus, in answer to your question, no, I don't think Simon's
    > distinction is any "better" or "worse" than what Bolman & Deal talk
    > about, but I do think the focus is quite different. It's like Simon
    > pointed the way and now Bolman & Deal are helping people to understand

    > how to get there. The various "frames" they talk about are but
    > examples of the seemingly endless varieties of possibilities. We
    > might see it this way, we might see it that. By offering sets of
    > possibilities people can see that their own initial frame is not the
    > only one, and not even necessarily the "best" one. It's like living
    > in Fargo your whole life and never knowing anything else (i.e., single

    > frame) versus having traveled all over the planet and seeing how lots
    > of people in lots of different settings do things (i.e., multiple
    frames).
    > That, to me, is the value in exploring various frames, even if the
    > limited frames Bolman & Deal give us are at best only close
    > approximations of any particular frame we might hold at any particular
    point in time.
    >
    > Imagine, for example, a police officer with 12 years police experience

    > who hates his job, but who needs 20 years police service to receive
    > full retirement benefits. He might believe that he has only two
    > choices -- either stay for another 8 years in a job he hates or quit
    > and lose his retirement. Now also imagine that a reason he thinks he
    > can't quit is that he believes his wife will never move. With this
    > "frame" he remains stuck in defensive avoidance (Janis & Mann), rather

    > than moving toward vigilance.
    > What would it take to get unstuck? The answer is, something that
    > helps him change the frame. As it turns out, this is not just a
    > made-up example it's a real issue that was raised in one of my
    > decision-making seminars. By applying the ACES technique and looking
    > at his assumptions ("wife will not
    > move") and counter-assumptions ("wife will move"), the police officer
    > was able to see things differently and get unstuck. While this
    > example stems from use of the ACES technique, the same could be said
    > for the work of Bolman & Deal or others who also encourage people to
    > view things differently. As Karl Weick says when he talks about
    > mutating metaphors, "Believing is seeing." The more we can understand

    > about the various lenses people use for solving problems, the more
    > prescriptive we can be when helping people make more informed choices.
    >
    > Finally, Michael also asks for a good reference on Simon's work, and I

    > would suggest either the original source or the "Decision Making"
    > module that Mike
    > Driver and I wrote for McGraw-Hill. Send me a mailing address and
    > I'll be glad to send a copy of the module to you. Same for my work on

    > ACES, if you're interested.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Larry Pate
    > Redondo Beach, California
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:21 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > Larry replied in part:
    >
    > <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis
    > on "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others,
    > have written about.>>
    >
    > Thanks for your thoughts!
    >
    > In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or
    > mindset or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior
    > to the 'frame' approach?
    >
    > Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon
    > (I'd appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I
    > have moderate exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter

    > suggest the 're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that
    > conclusion by offering a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ...
    > and perhaps unintentionally depriving the observer from creating
    > her/his own set of useful frames.
    >
    > Michael A
    >
    > Michael Ayers
    > mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    > -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <


  • 4.  Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Posted 12-08-2004 05:52
    Hello Larry, May we request a copy of the McGraw-Hill module on
    decision-making, along with materials on the ACES decision-making
    technique.

    Many thanks Annette

    Annette Leslie - Research Officer
    Cranfield University
    International Ecotechnology Research Centre
    Building 37
    Cranfield University
    Cranfield
    Beds, MK43 0AL

    This communication is sent in confidence to the named recipient only.
    If you are not the named recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of
    this communication is prohibited. If you have received this
    communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by
    telephone or email. The opinions expressed do not necessarily represent
    the corporate views of Cranfield University. Cranfield University
    accepts no liability for the content of this email or the consequences
    of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided."

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    Sent: 07 December 2004 21:03
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Yes, of course. I'll be glad to send copies of the McGraw-Hill module
    on
    decision-making, along with materials on the ACES decision-making
    technique.
    Several people have written to ask for copies. If anyone else wants
    them,
    just send me a mailing address. Thanks.

    Best,

    Larry

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Nickols
    Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 9:49 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal

    Larry:

    Although I didn't ask, I'd like copies of the materials you offered
    Michael.

    Fred Nickols
    8810 Woodgate Manor Ct
    Fort Myers, FL 33908

    Regards,

    Fred Nickols
    nickols@att.net


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-
    > DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry Pate
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 12:05 PM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Simon vs. Bolman & Deal
    >
    > Michael Ayers asks a good question (re: Simon's concept of "design
    > activity" versus Bolman & Deal's work on "reframing"), one that easily

    > could take a good book to fully answer. However, briefly, I'll say
    > that I think the value to Simon's distinction is that it tells us
    > precisely why there is such
    > variance in individual choices, and even inconsistencies within
    > individuals
    > in the choices we make. I see Simon as kind of this all-knowing, all-
    > seeing
    > guru who plops down on our planet for a time and who tells us in
    simple
    > terms why we're both screwing up and getting it right. I don't mean
    that
    > literally, of course, but metaphorically. He tells us people make
    > different
    > choices because they have different information and that they use the
    > information they have differently. How more elegant can it get? No
    > wonder
    > Simon is a Nobel Laureate (for his work in decision-making).
    >
    > But, hearing Simon's distinction or even agreeing with it is not
    > enough. If Kurt Lewin was correct that, "there is nothing so practical

    > as a good theory," then the important thing is to go from
    > understanding to action. Knowing the essential components of
    > decision-making does not in itself prevent us from falling into common

    > decision traps, or what has been called
    > the "unwanted repetitive episodes" of faulty decision-making. And in
    that
    > is where Bolman & Deal's work on reframing, and even some of my own
    work
    > in
    > developing the ACES Decision-Making Technique, adds value. In short,
    > knowing is one thing; translating that knowledge into purposeful
    action is
    > another.
    >
    > Thus, in answer to your question, no, I don't think Simon's
    > distinction is any "better" or "worse" than what Bolman & Deal talk
    > about, but I do think the focus is quite different. It's like Simon
    > pointed the way and now Bolman & Deal are helping people to understand

    > how to get there. The various "frames" they talk about are but
    > examples of the seemingly endless varieties of possibilities. We
    > might see it this way, we might see it that. By offering sets of
    > possibilities people can see that their own initial frame is not the
    > only one, and not even necessarily the "best" one. It's like living
    > in Fargo your whole life and never knowing anything else (i.e.,
    > single frame) versus having traveled all over the planet and seeing
    how
    > lots
    > of people in lots of different settings do things (i.e., multiple
    frames).
    > That, to me, is the value in exploring various frames, even if the
    limited
    > frames Bolman & Deal give us are at best only close approximations of
    any
    > particular frame we might hold at any particular point in time.
    >
    > Imagine, for example, a police officer with 12 years police experience

    > who hates his job, but who needs 20 years police service to receive
    > full retirement benefits. He might believe that he has only two
    > choices -- either stay for another 8 years in a job he hates or quit
    > and lose his retirement. Now also imagine that a reason he thinks he
    > can't quit is that he believes his wife will never move. With this
    > "frame" he remains stuck in
    > defensive avoidance (Janis & Mann), rather than moving toward
    vigilance.
    > What would it take to get unstuck? The answer is, something that
    helps
    > him
    > change the frame. As it turns out, this is not just a made-up example
    > it's
    > a real issue that was raised in one of my decision-making seminars.
    By
    > applying the ACES technique and looking at his assumptions ("wife will
    not
    > move") and counter-assumptions ("wife will move"), the police officer
    was
    > able to see things differently and get unstuck. While this example
    stems
    > from use of the ACES technique, the same could be said for the work of
    > Bolman & Deal or others who also encourage people to view things
    > differently. As Karl Weick says when he talks about mutating
    metaphors,
    > "Believing is seeing." The more we can understand about the various
    > lenses
    > people use for solving problems, the more prescriptive we can be when
    > helping people make more informed choices.
    >
    > Finally, Michael also asks for a good reference on Simon's work, and I

    > would suggest either the original source or the "Decision Making"
    > module that Mike
    > Driver and I wrote for McGraw-Hill. Send me a mailing address and
    I'll be
    > glad to send a copy of the module to you. Same for my work on ACES,
    if
    > you're interested.
    >
    > Best,
    >
    > Larry Pate
    > Redondo Beach, California
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Ayers
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:21 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    > Subject: Re: Who Else Comes to Mind
    >
    > Larry replied in part:
    >
    > <<This concept of "design activity" predates the more recent emphasis
    > on "frame" and "frame theory" that Bolman & Deal, among and others,
    > have written about.>>
    >
    > Thanks for your thoughts!
    >
    > In your mind, is the 'design activity' approach or nomenclature or
    > mindset or structure (I'm trying to avoid using framework!) superior
    > to the 'frame' approach?
    >
    > Let me answer my own question. I have only minimal exposure to Simon
    > (I'd appreciate a pointer to a relatively lightweight reference). I
    > have moderate exposure to Deal and Bolman. My sense is that the latter

    > suggest the 're-framing' is a good thing, but then undermine that
    > conclusion by offering
    > a prepared-in-advance set of useful frames ... and perhaps
    unintentionally
    > depriving the observer from creating her/his own set of useful frames.
    >
    > Michael A
    >
    > Michael Ayers
    > mbayers@earthlink.net <=> www.TheCommonwealthPractice.com
    > -> Who are you gonna be while you're doing what you do? <