Discussion: View Thread

From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]

It seems to me that what is really at the crux of the issue is finding a
way for students (and really this all people at all times) to find
intrinsic value in learning. A part of that issues is around the grading
system in the United States -- where grades are more important that what
is learned. I am not arguing for against a grading system, but rather
for a system that values the intrinsic nature of learning.
It starts at a young age and fostered by a wide range of elements within
one's environment including parents, teachers, friends and relatives.
-rr

G'Day,

I think the problem is here, that there is a difference between learning
and reciting. True learning only occurs when there has been sufficient time
for the information to be absorbed, cogitatively processed through the
dream cycle and added to the knowledge base then used to fill a knowledge
gap in a decision pathway in usage for problem solving, usually within a
contextual framework. So, true learning as in full integration of
information / knowledge in a contextual situation may not occur for many
years after the classroom experience, and then mainly in conjunction with
other pieces of information to become intelligence or knowledge.

A problem facing any grading, marking or assessment of assignments, its
that the time span is almost always too small to truly measure any learning
effect, but in reality only measures their ability to recite what the
teacher / lecture wants to hear. And often this is even more distorted by
what the student thinks the marker wants to hear.

I believe that to measure true learning, the problems are many fold. The
main areas of consideration would need to be the context of the usage of
that knowledge, the time frame since the classroom learning occurred, the
percentage that the knowledge contributed or was useful, the ability to
apply it in a given situation, and the maturity of knowledge to assess its
implications, suitability and effectiveness.

For instance, at an informal gathering of MBA students, a question was
raised about the effectiveness of Decision Techniques and tools. The result
was that in a Proactive situation the students were able to practice their
classroom learning, however in a reactive situation the students worked of
gut instinct, because they didn't have the time or the calm factor due to
time, speed and stress to make use of that learning. Upon reflection, an
altered course content structure to help the students incorporate decision
making techniques in their every day decisions, help to raise their
decision making baseline, and proved to be more effective in the field.
Where, a more informed decision within a stressful/reactive environment,
proved to be more beneficial and effective.

But, until that situation occurred, where was the actual learning occurring
? - In the classroom, in the field, over the entire time, or all of the above.

Regards
Tony Nolan


At 03:38 PM 20/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>From: rusty rae [mailto:thegraduate@centurytel.net]
>
>It seems to me that what is really at the crux of the issue is finding a
>way for students (and really this all people at all times) to find
>intrinsic value in learning. A part of that issues is around the grading
>system in the United States -- where grades are more important that what
>is learned. I am not arguing for against a grading system, but rather
>for a system that values the intrinsic nature of learning.
>It starts at a young age and fostered by a wide range of elements within
>one's environment including parents, teachers, friends and relatives.
>-rr



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Colleagues,

I'll inject a thought about learning and incentives to learn.

In business, we sell products to customers. "Sell". As in promote to
create desire.

In teaching, from grade school up and especially in academia, teachers don't
bother selling their subject. Indeed, many cannot state the value of their
subject. Certainly, no one takes the first half of the first class of the
week to sell the students on why they should pay attention.
How can we expect students to love learning when so few teachers love
both their subjects and the teaching of those subjects.

Certainly through high school, most students never learn from a teacher who
has practiced their subject in real world situations. Few English teachers
have published books. Few calculus teachers have engineered a bridge. Few
history teachers have ever really studied history.

By college, we find more true educators. Yet perhaps 80% are either jaded
by years of the same old stuff or are bored new staff who would rather be
doing their research. Some of my best professors were terrible teachers.

We must always remember that the entire educational system through
undergraduate college is not dedicated to creating learners, but is
specifically designed to turn out compatible members of society with common
language, values, and expectations. (I expect some push back on that
statement... yet that is reality.)

Instead of incentives that cost the prof almost nothing, I'd recommend that
the prof invest in development of enough marketing arguments and sales
pitches that he/she can justify interest in the course at least once a week
in language of the student's world.

I warn you. It won't be easy. With all my experience, I'm not sure I could
sell freshman English to freshmen. But if teaching freshman English were my
job, I would certainly give it a try.

Best,

Gary

----------------------------
Pre-planning accelerates strategy accelerates performance

Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
garyl@market-engineering.com

Dear Edryce,
I am extremely interested in your ideas. Please share with me what you have in mind.
Gratefully Yours,
Harry Bury

-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wed 11/20/2002 7:23 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Cc:
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] No Poor Students? Re: ' SPECIAL of the year'



I can tell you are passionate about what you do. I need to tell you that I come from a different orientation, and that orientation CAN and DOES produce productive people, following their own interests, and not some curriculum designed for them. I was just expressing my thoughts, not trying to persuade anyone. There are schools popping up all over the world now that "prepare" students without having a curriculum pre-designed for them. I am not interested in engaging in a defense or arguing. If anyone wants to know more, I will be glad to discuss further off the list because I feel I am not going along with the thread here.
Edryce

Romie Littrell <littrellaom@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:As a student, business professional, adult
trainer, and university professor for many decades,
there ARE such things as poor students. Poor students
who suddenly find something that "interests" them will
not be sufficiently equipt to profit from their
interest.
Learning is an active process; teaching is
facilitating learning. Curricula generally are based
upon what practioners in a discipline have discovered
that we need to know. If our job is only to provide
opportunities that "interest" students then let's
leave it to them, and watch them continually reinvent
the wheel, "interesting", but not productive.
Experience counts; self-discipline and self-motivation
count; characteristics most, yes, MOST, students lack.
(If you work for a university that can select only the
best and brightest and most motivated, God has blessed
you.)
See the definitions below (ALL CAPS are mine);
these do not describe quite a number of individuals
posing as students in my classes:
student \Stu"dent\, n. [L. studens, -entis, p. pr. of
studere to study. See Study, n.] 1. A person ENGAGED
in study; one who is DEVOTED learning; a LEARNER; a
pupil; a scholar; especially, one who ATTENDS a
school, or who SEEKS knowledge from professional
teachers or from books; as, the students of an
academy, a college, or a university; a medical
student; a hard student.
2. One who STUDIES or EXAMINES in any manner; an
ATTENTIVE and systematic observer; as, a student of
human nature, or of physical nature.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ©
1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--- Edryce Reynolds wrote: > I
think/believe there are no "poor" students. There
> are only people who have not discovered what they
> are interested in yet. I think we should stop
> trying so hard to "make" anything out of students,
> and start listening to them to learn from them what
> it is that interests them.
> Of course that goes against the canned curriculum
> which is everywhere. Even though it is often
> candy-coated, the students know that they will not
> be allowed to pursue their own interests. There
> just isn't room in the curriculum as it stands, no
> matter how liberal.
> Edryce
> Esteban Trevino
> wrote:Strange isn't 'school' a place to get an
> educated instead of just
> demonstrating what effective practices ones has
> acquired from who knows
> where?
>
> What can be done to induce the poor students to take
> such offers and
> become good students?
>
> Cordially,
>
> Esteban ...
>
>
>
>
>
> : Management Education and Development Discussion
>
> 11/19/2002 09:23 AM
> Please respond to Management Education and
> Development Discussion
>
>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: WANKEL'S TEACHING TIP OF THE DAY: EARLY
> BIRD SPECIAL DISCOUNT
>
>
> I share the same experience as deborah's. It is
> always the already good
> students that take such offers. I know that is why
> they are good. As
> Deborah said, this helps a lot to minimize grade
> complaints from those
> who don't do well.
>
> Abainesh Mitiku
>
> Charles Wankel wrote:
> >
> > From: deborah [mailto:debnixon@sympatico.ca]
> >
> > I have always offered the option of a draft
> review- out of 2 classes of
> > 45 each, exactly 3 students took up the offer.
> It's always the best
> > students who take the offer and the ones who need
> the help the least. I
> > have my views as to why that's the case- but it
> gives the students
> > little room to move or negotiate if they're not
> happy with their grades.
> >
> > Deborah Nixon
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> For your protection, this e-mail message has been
> scanned for viruses.
> Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/
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=====
Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
Facutly of Business
Auckland University of Technology
Private Bag 1020
Auckland 1020, New Zealand
Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629

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Harry,
For many years I have been an advocate for free education. No, not the sixties idea of free, but really free! I use three examples in management classes of freedom. First is Rogers (Carl) and his experiment in the fifties with a graduate class in which he met with them, cordially, on the first class time, and did not give them ANY direction. Some of the group became nervous after 15 minutes, and a few asked when class would start. He said, "Whenever you like." He went on to tell them it was their class, and they could conduct it in any way they chose. He offered his former syllabi, texts, notes, whatever they felt they could use. Some students stormed out of the room and complained to the dean, who did nothing because he knew of the experiment, and Rogers had tenure. Those who finished the class said it was the best experience of their educational career. I was fortunate to read the journal of one of those class members, and I wish I had bought the book, because now I can't find it. Rogers was the first to show me what is possible.
Then there is Sudbury Valley School, a private K-12 "school" in Framingham, Mass. Created in the late sixties, when many people were creating alternative schools, their school was more solidly based on a philosophy of democratic organization. I visited them in 1991 to see for myself; there are many publications from them on what has happened through the years. There they have no curriculum, no tests, no grades, no teachers. The students learn what they want to learn and when they want to learn it (the founders were influenced by A.S. Neil's Summerhill in England). There is enough documentation to show that it has been working well since it was first accredited in the early 70s. It is still accredited, though the founders do not recommend that other schools begun now go for accreditation. They have a website if you want to know more. I subscribe to their newsletter, which always has inspiring articles.
Last is an organization in Brazil, Semco, originally owned by the Semler family, now owned by all the employees. The business was going under during a down economy in the seventies, and the original owner turned it over to his 20-ish son, which tried hard to follow the traditional way of running a business, but it didn't work. Finally he decided to do it his way, which was democratic. He threw out all manuals, got rid of management perks, including his own, encouraged everyone to set their individual salaries, and included all of his employees in the ownership of the business. They came out of the slump pretty fast. He tells the story in a book called Maverick, which I use in management classes.
I know that every business cannot jump into this openness quickly, but having these three diverse examples makes me impatient with conventional curricula and all those methods for "motivating" students. I take the unmotivated aside and try to learn why they are not morivated. Then I try to help them find a field they can be excited about, and steer them that way. Otherwise, they will be unhappy and everyone around them will also be miserable (slightly exaggerated, but only slightly).
Peter Senge has written a lot about "learning organizations" but unfortunately, after over ten years, there aren't any. Mostly, I think this is because people in current management positions cannot think outside the box and trust people to do their jobs.
I'd be interested in your reactions.
Sincerely,
Edryce
Harry Bury <HBury@bw.edu> wrote:Dear Edryce,
I am extremely interested in your ideas. Please share with me what you have in mind.
Gratefully Yours,
Harry Bury

-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wed 11/20/2002 7:23 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Cc:
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] No Poor Students? Re: ' SPECIAL of the year'



I can tell you are passionate about what you do. I need to tell you that I come from a different orientation, and that orientation CAN and DOES produce productive people, following their own interests, and not some curriculum designed for them. I was just expressing my thoughts, not trying to persuade anyone. There are schools popping up all over the world now that "prepare" students without having a curriculum pre-designed for them. I am not interested in engaging in a defense or arguing. If anyone wants to know more, I will be glad to discuss further off the list because I feel I am not going along with the thread here.
Edryce

Romie Littrell
wrote:As a student, business professional, adult
trainer, and university professor for many decades,
there ARE such things as poor students. Poor students
who suddenly find something that "interests" them will
not be sufficiently equipt to profit from their
interest.
Learning is an active process; teaching is
facilitating learning. Curricula generally are based
upon what practioners in a discipline have discovered
that we need to know. If our job is only to provide
opportunities that "interest" students then let's
leave it to them, and watch them continually reinvent
the wheel, "interesting", but not productive.
Experience counts; self-discipline and self-motivation
count; characteristics most, yes, MOST, students lack.
(If you work for a university that can select only the
best and brightest and most motivated, God has blessed
you.)
See the definitions below (ALL CAPS are mine);
these do not describe quite a number of individuals
posing as students in my classes:
student \Stu"dent\, n. [L. studens, -entis, p. pr. of
studere to study. See Study, n.] 1. A person ENGAGED
in study; one who is DEVOTED learning; a LEARNER; a
pupil; a scholar; especially, one who ATTENDS a
school, or who SEEKS knowledge from professional
teachers or from books; as, the students of an
academy, a college, or a university; a medical
student; a hard student.
2. One who STUDIES or EXAMINES in any manner; an
ATTENTIVE and systematic observer; as, a student of
human nature, or of physical nature.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ??
1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--- Edryce Reynolds wrote: > I
think/believe there are no "poor" students. There
> are only people who have not discovered what they
> are interested in yet. I think we should stop
> trying so hard to "make" anything out of students,
> and start listening to them to learn from them what
> it is that interests them.
> Of course that goes against the canned curriculum
> which is everywhere. Even though it is often
> candy-coated, the students know that they will not
> be allowed to pursue their own interests. There
> just isn't room in the curriculum as it stands, no
> matter how liberal.
> Edryce
> Esteban Trevino
> wrote:Strange isn't 'school' a place to get an
> educated instead of just
> demonstrating what effective practices ones has
> acquired from who knows
> where?
>
> What can be done to induce the poor students to take
> such offers and
> become good students?
>
> Cordially,
>
> Esteban ...
>
>
>
>
>
> : Management Education and Development Discussion
>
> 11/19/2002 09:23 AM
> Please respond to Management Education and
> Development Discussion
>
>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: WANKEL'S TEACHING TIP OF THE DAY: EARLY
> BIRD SPECIAL DISCOUNT
>
>
> I share the same experience as deborah's. It is
> always the already good
> students that take such offers. I know that is why
> they are good. As
> Deborah said, this helps a lot to minimize grade
> complaints from those
> who don't do well.
>
> Abainesh Mitiku
>
> Charles Wankel wrote:
> >
> > From: deborah [mailto:debnixon@sympatico.ca]
> >
> > I have always offered the option of a draft
> review- out of 2 classes of
> > 45 each, exactly 3 students took up the offer.
> It's always the best
> > students who take the offer and the ones who need
> the help the least. I
> > have my views as to why that's the case- but it
> gives the students
> > little room to move or negotiate if they're not
> happy with their grades.
> >
> > Deborah Nixon
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> For your protection, this e-mail message has been
> scanned for viruses.
> Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site

=====
Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
Facutly of Business
Auckland University of Technology
Private Bag 1020
Auckland 1020, New Zealand
Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629

http://www.yahoo.promo.com.au/hint/ - Yahoo! Hint Dropper
- Avoid getting hideous gifts this Christmas with Yahoo! Hint Dropper!


---------------------------------
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Edryce (and others who read this before the second, apologetic message),
The book to which you refer is Carl Rogers "On becoming a Person" and
the chapter is titles "Student Centered Teaching as Experienced by a
Participant." I too was transformed in my teaching by what I read.
Thanks for relating your experiences,
Chris Poulson


>Harry,
>For many years I have been an advocate for free education. No, not
>the sixties idea of free, but really free! I use three examples in
>management classes of freedom. First is Rogers (Carl) and his
>experiment in the fifties with a graduate class in which he met with
>them, cordially, on the first class time, and did not give them ANY
>direction. Some of the group became nervous after 15 minutes, and a
>few asked when class would start. He said, "Whenever you like." He
>went on to tell them it was their class, and they could conduct it
>in any way they chose. He offered his former syllabi, texts, notes,
>whatever they felt they could use. Some students stormed out of the
>room and complained to the dean, who did nothing because he knew of
>the experiment, and Rogers had tenure. Those who finished the class
>said it was the best experience of their educational career. I was
>fortunate to read the journal of one of those class members, and I
>wish I had bought the book, because now I can't find it. Rogers was
>the first to show me what is possible.
>Then there is Sudbury Valley School, a private K-12 "school" in
>Framingham, Mass. Created in the late sixties, when many people
>were creating alternative schools, their school was more solidly
>based on a philosophy of democratic organization. I visited them in
>1991 to see for myself; there are many publications from them on
>what has happened through the years. There they have no curriculum,
>no tests, no grades, no teachers. The students learn what they want
>to learn and when they want to learn it (the founders were
>influenced by A.S. Neil's Summerhill in England). There is enough
>documentation to show that it has been working well since it was
>first accredited in the early 70s. It is still accredited, though
>the founders do not recommend that other schools begun now go for
>accreditation. They have a website if you want to know more. I
>subscribe to their newsletter, which always has inspiring articles.
>Last is an organization in Brazil, Semco, originally owned by the
>Semler family, now owned by all the employees. The business was
>going under during a down economy in the seventies, and the original
>owner turned it over to his 20-ish son, which tried hard to follow
>the traditional way of running a business, but it didn't work.
>Finally he decided to do it his way, which was democratic. He threw
>out all manuals, got rid of management perks, including his own,
>encouraged everyone to set their individual salaries, and included
>all of his employees in the ownership of the business. They came
>out of the slump pretty fast. He tells the story in a book called
>Maverick, which I use in management classes.
>I know that every business cannot jump into this openness quickly,
>but having these three diverse examples makes me impatient with
>conventional curricula and all those methods for "motivating"
>students. I take the unmotivated aside and try to learn why they
>are not morivated. Then I try to help them find a field they can be
>excited about, and steer them that way. Otherwise, they will be
>unhappy and everyone around them will also be miserable (slightly
>exaggerated, but only slightly).
>Peter Senge has written a lot about "learning organizations" but
>unfortunately, after over ten years, there aren't any. Mostly, I
>think this is because people in current management positions cannot
>think outside the box and trust people to do their jobs.
>I'd be interested in your reactions.
>Sincerely,
>Edryce
> Harry Bury <HBury@bw.edu> wrote:Dear Edryce,
>I am extremely interested in your ideas. Please share with me what
>you have in mind.
>Gratefully Yours,
>Harry Bury
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
>Sent: Wed 11/20/2002 7:23 PM
>To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
>Cc:
>Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] No Poor Students? Re: ' SPECIAL of the year'
>
>
>
>I can tell you are passionate about what you do. I need to tell you
>that I come from a different orientation, and that orientation CAN
>and DOES produce productive people, following their own interests,
>and not some curriculum designed for them. I was just expressing my
>thoughts, not trying to persuade anyone. There are schools popping
>up all over the world now that "prepare" students without having a
>curriculum pre-designed for them. I am not interested in engaging in
>a defense or arguing. If anyone wants to know more, I will be glad
>to discuss further off the list because I feel I am not going along
>with the thread here.
>Edryce
>
>Romie Littrell
>wrote:As a student, business professional, adult
>trainer, and university professor for many decades,
>there ARE such things as poor students. Poor students
>who suddenly find something that "interests" them will
>not be sufficiently equipt to profit from their
>interest.
>Learning is an active process; teaching is
>facilitating learning. Curricula generally are based
>upon what practioners in a discipline have discovered
>that we need to know. If our job is only to provide
>opportunities that "interest" students then let's
>leave it to them, and watch them continually reinvent
>the wheel, "interesting", but not productive.
>Experience counts; self-discipline and self-motivation
>count; characteristics most, yes, MOST, students lack.
>(If you work for a university that can select only the
>best and brightest and most motivated, God has blessed
>you.)
>See the definitions below (ALL CAPS are mine);
>these do not describe quite a number of individuals
>posing as students in my classes:
>student \Stu"dent\, n. [L. studens, -entis, p. pr. of
>studere to study. See Study, n.] 1. A person ENGAGED
>in study; one who is DEVOTED learning; a LEARNER; a
>pupil; a scholar; especially, one who ATTENDS a
>school, or who SEEKS knowledge from professional
>teachers or from books; as, the students of an
>academy, a college, or a university; a medical
>student; a hard student.
>2. One who STUDIES or EXAMINES in any manner; an
>ATTENTIVE and systematic observer; as, a student of
>human nature, or of physical nature.
>Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, A(c)
>1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
>
>--- Edryce Reynolds wrote: > I
>think/believe there are no "poor" students. There
>> are only people who have not discovered what they
>> are interested in yet. I think we should stop
>> trying so hard to "make" anything out of students,
>> and start listening to them to learn from them what
>> it is that interests them.
>> Of course that goes against the canned curriculum
>> which is everywhere. Even though it is often
>> candy-coated, the students know that they will not
>> be allowed to pursue their own interests. There
>> just isn't room in the curriculum as it stands, no
>> matter how liberal.
>> Edryce
>> Esteban Trevino
>> wrote:Strange isn't 'school' a place to get an
>> educated instead of just
>> demonstrating what effective practices ones has
>> acquired from who knows
>> where?
>>
>> What can be done to induce the poor students to take
>> such offers and
>> become good students?
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Esteban ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> : Management Education and Development Discussion
>>
>> 11/19/2002 09:23 AM
>> Please respond to Management Education and
>> Development Discussion
>>
>>
>> To:
>> cc:
>> Subject: Re: WANKEL'S TEACHING TIP OF THE DAY: EARLY
>> BIRD SPECIAL DISCOUNT
>>
>>
>> I share the same experience as deborah's. It is
>> always the already good
>> students that take such offers. I know that is why
>> they are good. As
>> Deborah said, this helps a lot to minimize grade
>> complaints from those
>> who don't do well.
>>
>> Abainesh Mitiku
>>
>> Charles Wankel wrote:
>> >
>> > From: deborah [mailto:debnixon@sympatico.ca]
>> >
>> > I have always offered the option of a draft
> > review- out of 2 classes of
>> > 45 each, exactly 3 students took up the offer.
>> It's always the best
>> > students who take the offer and the ones who need
>> the help the least. I
>> > have my views as to why that's the case- but it
>> gives the students
>> > little room to move or negotiate if they're not
>> happy with their grades.
>> >
>> > Deborah Nixon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>> For your protection, this e-mail message has been
>> scanned for viruses.
>> Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
>
>=====
>Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
>Facutly of Business
>Auckland University of Technology
>Private Bag 1020
>Auckland 1020, New Zealand
>Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629
>
>http://www.yahoo.promo.com.au/hint/ - Yahoo! Hint Dropper
>- Avoid getting hideous gifts this Christmas with Yahoo! Hint Dropper!
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now


--
===========================
Chris Poulson
Professor of Management and Human Resources
California State Polytechnic University Pomona
Pomona, CA 91768

Mail: P.O. Box 339, Claremont, CA 91711-0339

cfpoulson@csupomona.edu
909-869-2415 office
909-869-4353 office fax
909-624-0874 home

http://www.csupomona.edu/~cfpoulson/

"Seeing Time" Photo Essay as exhibited at the Academy of Management 2000:
http://www.aom.pace.edu/meetings/2000/art/seeing_time_title.htm
=====================================

Sorry folks, I thought I was writing only to Harry Bury. Just ignore me!
Edryce
Harry Bury <HBury@bw.edu> wrote:Dear Edryce,
I am extremely interested in your ideas. Please share with me what you have in mind.
Gratefully Yours,
Harry Bury

-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wed 11/20/2002 7:23 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Cc:
Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] No Poor Students? Re: ' SPECIAL of the year'



I can tell you are passionate about what you do. I need to tell you that I come from a different orientation, and that orientation CAN and DOES produce productive people, following their own interests, and not some curriculum designed for them. I was just expressing my thoughts, not trying to persuade anyone. There are schools popping up all over the world now that "prepare" students without having a curriculum pre-designed for them. I am not interested in engaging in a defense or arguing. If anyone wants to know more, I will be glad to discuss further off the list because I feel I am not going along with the thread here.
Edryce

Romie Littrell
wrote:As a student, business professional, adult
trainer, and university professor for many decades,
there ARE such things as poor students. Poor students
who suddenly find something that "interests" them will
not be sufficiently equipt to profit from their
interest.
Learning is an active process; teaching is
facilitating learning. Curricula generally are based
upon what practioners in a discipline have discovered
that we need to know. If our job is only to provide
opportunities that "interest" students then let's
leave it to them, and watch them continually reinvent
the wheel, "interesting", but not productive.
Experience counts; self-discipline and self-motivation
count; characteristics most, yes, MOST, students lack.
(If you work for a university that can select only the
best and brightest and most motivated, God has blessed
you.)
See the definitions below (ALL CAPS are mine);
these do not describe quite a number of individuals
posing as students in my classes:
student \Stu"dent\, n. [L. studens, -entis, p. pr. of
studere to study. See Study, n.] 1. A person ENGAGED
in study; one who is DEVOTED learning; a LEARNER; a
pupil; a scholar; especially, one who ATTENDS a
school, or who SEEKS knowledge from professional
teachers or from books; as, the students of an
academy, a college, or a university; a medical
student; a hard student.
2. One who STUDIES or EXAMINES in any manner; an
ATTENTIVE and systematic observer; as, a student of
human nature, or of physical nature.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, ??
1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--- Edryce Reynolds wrote: > I
think/believe there are no "poor" students. There
> are only people who have not discovered what they
> are interested in yet. I think we should stop
> trying so hard to "make" anything out of students,
> and start listening to them to learn from them what
> it is that interests them.
> Of course that goes against the canned curriculum
> which is everywhere. Even though it is often
> candy-coated, the students know that they will not
> be allowed to pursue their own interests. There
> just isn't room in the curriculum as it stands, no
> matter how liberal.
> Edryce
> Esteban Trevino
> wrote:Strange isn't 'school' a place to get an
> educated instead of just
> demonstrating what effective practices ones has
> acquired from who knows
> where?
>
> What can be done to induce the poor students to take
> such offers and
> become good students?
>
> Cordially,
>
> Esteban ...
>
>
>
>
>
> : Management Education and Development Discussion
>
> 11/19/2002 09:23 AM
> Please respond to Management Education and
> Development Discussion
>
>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: WANKEL'S TEACHING TIP OF THE DAY: EARLY
> BIRD SPECIAL DISCOUNT
>
>
> I share the same experience as deborah's. It is
> always the already good
> students that take such offers. I know that is why
> they are good. As
> Deborah said, this helps a lot to minimize grade
> complaints from those
> who don't do well.
>
> Abainesh Mitiku
>
> Charles Wankel wrote:
> >
> > From: deborah [mailto:debnixon@sympatico.ca]
> >
> > I have always offered the option of a draft
> review- out of 2 classes of
> > 45 each, exactly 3 students took up the offer.
> It's always the best
> > students who take the offer and the ones who need
> the help the least. I
> > have my views as to why that's the case- but it
> gives the students
> > little room to move or negotiate if they're not
> happy with their grades.
> >
> > Deborah Nixon
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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>
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=====
Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
Facutly of Business
Auckland University of Technology
Private Bag 1020
Auckland 1020, New Zealand
Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629

http://www.yahoo.promo.com.au/hint/ - Yahoo! Hint Dropper
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Good day...


Tony Nolan stated"...where was the actual learning occurring? - In the classroom, in the
field, over the entire time, or all of the above".

To me learning only occurs in the mind... :-) So how does one mind
facilitate a different mind to acquire useful and productive skills
instead of something else?

Cordially,

Esteban

____________________________________________________________________________
For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/

Dear Estaban,

Another incisive insight.

I see two salient dynamics that need to be addressed in answering your question: motivation and communication.

A commonality of both dynamics operating in an educational/learning setting is that they operate dynamically in a shared, interactive way. In other words, at the most basic level there are two parties and each will interact with and will affect the other.

I think when these dynamics are most effective when the operate in a covenant-driven relationship. I think they are most dysfunctional when they operate in a contract-driven relationship. Principally, I think that covenant-based relationships allow the fullest expression of emotional intelligence or maturity while contract-driven relationships further or enable the victim-rescuer model.

As an example, I think student contracts and viewing or characterizing the syllabus as a contact presents a potential counter-productive dynamic to learning. I think such sets up students as something to be operated upon. On the other hand, when the syllabus is presented as a facilitative device aimed at enhancing or furthering learning being achieved thru values-based, covenant driven relationship, then I think a step has been taken towards enabling these dynamics to operate in such as way as to healthily address your question.

Kind wishes.

Ed
Drive On!

>>> esteban.trevino@neoris.com 11/21/02 11:24AM >>>
Good day...


Tony Nolan stated"...where was the actual learning occurring? - In the classroom, in the
field, over the entire time, or all of the above".

To me learning only occurs in the mind... :-) So how does one mind
facilitate a different mind to acquire useful and productive skills
instead of something else?

Cordially,

Esteban

____________________________________________________________________________
For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/

Ed,

Very interesting point. I have a quick follow-up question.

>As an example, I think student contracts and viewing or characterizing the
>syllabus as a contact presents a potential counter-productive dynamic to
>learning. I think such sets up students as something to be operated
>upon. On the other hand, when the syllabus is presented as a facilitative
>device aimed at enhancing or furthering learning being achieved thru
>values-based, covenant driven relationship, then I think a step has been
>taken towards enabling these dynamics to operate in such as way as to
>healthily address your question.

What type of language would you use in writing and presenting a syllabus as
a covenant rather than a contract? I see the two as similar, although I
can see how the term covenant invokes values/principles over
details/dead-lines. Could you give quick examples of syllabi and course
introductions from these two perspectives.....

If this puts you on the spot (or is too much to ask so close to
Thanksgiving), please feel free to just pass. Perhaps someone else could
give examples? I appreciate your contribution and I'm just hoping to learn
more about your perspective.

Best wishes,

Ken



~~~~~~~~~
Kenneth G. Brown, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor and Huneke Faculty Research Fellow
Henry B. Tippie College of Business
108 John Pappajohn Business Building
University of Iowa
Iowa City, IA 52242
PH: 319.335.3812 FX: 319.335.1956

Whoa! Nice use of jargon!

--- Edward Hampton <ehampton@mail.ucf.edu> wrote: >
Dear Estaban,
>
> Another incisive insight.
>
> I see two salient dynamics that need to be addressed
> in answering your question: motivation and
> communication.
>
> A commonality of both dynamics operating in an
> educational/learning setting is that they operate
> dynamically in a shared, interactive way. In other
> words, at the most basic level there are two parties
> and each will interact with and will affect the
> other.
>
> I think when these dynamics are most effective when
> the operate in a covenant-driven relationship. I
> think they are most dysfunctional when they operate
> in a contract-driven relationship. Principally, I
> think that covenant-based relationships allow the
> fullest expression of emotional intelligence or
> maturity while contract-driven relationships further
> or enable the victim-rescuer model.
>
> As an example, I think student contracts and viewing
> or characterizing the syllabus as a contact presents
> a potential counter-productive dynamic to learning.
> I think such sets up students as something to be
> operated upon. On the other hand, when the syllabus
> is presented as a facilitative device aimed at
> enhancing or furthering learning being achieved thru
> values-based, covenant driven relationship, then I
> think a step has been taken towards enabling these
> dynamics to operate in such as way as to healthily
> address your question.
>
> Kind wishes.
>
> Ed
> Drive On!
>
> >>> esteban.trevino@neoris.com 11/21/02 11:24AM >>>
> Good day...
>
>
> Tony Nolan stated"...where was the actual learning
> occurring? - In the classroom, in the
> field, over the entire time, or all of the above".
>
> To me learning only occurs in the mind... :-) So how
> does one mind
> facilitate a different mind to acquire useful and
> productive skills
> instead of something else?
>
> Cordially,
>
> Esteban
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> For your protection, this e-mail message has been
> scanned for viruses.
> Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/

=====
Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
Facutly of Business
Auckland University of Technology
Private Bag 1020
Auckland 1020, New Zealand
Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629

http://www.yahoo.promo.com.au/hint/ - Yahoo! Hint Dropper
- Avoid getting hideous gifts this Christmas with Yahoo! Hint Dropper!

What type of language would you use in writing and presenting a syllabus as
a covenant rather than a contract? I see the two as similar, although I
can see how the term covenant invokes values/principles over
details/dead-lines. Could you give quick examples of syllabi and course
introductions from these two perspectives.....

~~~~~~~~~
Kenneth G. Brown, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor and Huneke Faculty Research Fellow
Henry B. Tippie College of Business
108 John Pappajohn Business Building
University of Iowa
Iowa City, IA 52242
PH: 319.335.3812 FX: 319.335.1956


While there may be philosophical reasons to think of a syllabus as a covenant rather than a contract, the reality is that is IS considered a contract in the event of student complaints. In addition, accrediting bodies are, to my knowledge, fairly insistent that syllabi adhere to certain formats and language.

kenneth-g-brown@uiowa.edu 11/21/02 12:35PM wrote:
"What type of language would you use in writing and presenting a syllabus as
a covenant rather than a contract? I see the two as similar, although I
can see how the term covenant invokes values/principles over
details/dead-lines. Could you give quick examples of syllabi and course
introductions from these two perspectives.....
If this puts you on the spot (or is too much to ask so close to
Thanksgiving), please feel free to just pass. Best wishes,
Ken"

Ken,

Your question does not put me on the spot although I sense from some reactions I came across as a little too ethereal and touchy feely.

The way I approach covenant vs. contract driven syllabi is more in execution than in language or content. I use both approaches.

For context, I teach in an Industrial Engineering and Management Systems Department; mainly on the Engineering Management side. I teach core engineering programs, both undergraduate (quantitative) and graduate (qualitative- org behavior) as well as some competitively selected leadership programs hosted by the College. I am not touchy feely but do purposefully try to apply the mental models I have used in my OD work.

For my undergraduate core programs, I pretty much use the standard contract driven syllabus model. I set the semester's agenda, the evaluation criteria, the method of delivery and, of course, the final grade determination. Students do not directly play in this formulation. It is mainly driven by departmental and ABET criteria/mandates.

I use try to use the covenant-driven approach for my graduate and leadership courses (I am still evolving my thinking and practice in this area, i.e. it is not perfect.) My approach is different for the two.

a. For my graduate course, I spend a bit of time at the beginning of the semester with Bloom's taxonomy and helping them understand the appropriate level for a graduate course. In other words, I spend some time in value alignment. The main value I press is that I expect them to be active in learning and not passive. I reinforce that by requiring them to acquire information on their own and by using more Socratic approaches in teaching, i.e. asking questions to get them to explore ideas by sharing perceptions and experiences, i.e. letting them develop the answers. I also let them develop some of the main components of the syllabus: evaluation criteria, course work, etc. I play the honest broker by making sure that development is guided by the learning values they agreed to and that the course integrity is maintained to accomplish its mandated objectives. This approach is exploratory and evolving for me. I can say that surveys, test scores, and informal student feedback seem to indicate this approach is effective.

b. For my leadership course, which is freshman and sophomores, I try to use the syllabus as a meta learning experience. One of my objectives is to get them to constructively challenge injustice, to advocate the larger group interest - two behaviors I believe are key to leadership practice. So, I put a three-four credit workload into the syllabus for a two credit course. The idea is to force a choice to be a victim or practice leadership, i.e. right the situation for the group. I put them thru some experiential exercises on day one to plant the idea that they can exert influence in the course. About week three or four they get it. Leadership emerges about that point (or I facilitate its emergence) and we jointly craft a syllabus. By this point, we have explored key values about learning as well as leadership. Again, I play the honest broker and make sure they stay true to professed learning values and that they don't throw out the baby with the bath water, i.e. I have some points that I will not give upon (as is the case in reality.) I have done this since 1997. My best semesters are when some take the baton to teach a topic or two. Overall, I see a marked change from behavior under the prescribed, contract driven syllabus to the more covenant driven one.

I am not willing to say the above is a model that anyone should adopt. It works for me. But much of what I do is based upon personal beliefs and experience.

What drives the above is my perceived mandate that I must create a shared relationship when it comes to motivation and communication - on many levels: interpersonal and organizational. For me, connecting to students at the values level and then letting them express those values thru the syllabus and course architecture has been beneficial.

I guess you might ask why I don't take the covenant driven approach in all my classes. Frankly, I do not have the time in the core programs due to the content that must be covered and I find the general undergraduate learning mentality demands the structure of a contract-based syllabus. The time spent in developing the covenant relationship in my graduate and leadership courses is affordable because the exploration teaches some of the key concepts and principles I want to bring out anyway. My experiments with using covenant-driven approaches in general classes have failed. They seem to want the "Let's get down to the nuts and bolts; just the facts, Ma'am" approach. They are content driven and not too interested in process.

One last point: using a covenant driven approach is not efficient. A lot of time is spent getting to know the students, helping them move to be sensitive to a desired set of learning values; and keeping those values in the forefront, structurally and operationally. Efficiency is best achieved in contract driven approaches, in my experience.

Hope this answers your question.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and all who have reached this point of this rather long post.

Kind wishes.

Ed
Drive On!

Hello Esteban and list,

Its an interesting question you ask. We know that data gets converted into
information, because of a ability to recognize and classify it, and then
information gets converted to intelligence (value added information ),
Intelligence becomes knowledge when there is a context, and a subjective
cognitive interpretation has occurred. Thus - all knowledge is subjective
as is the same for truth. Hence the saying - the only absolute truth in
this world, is that there isn't any.

When we produce knowledge to output into the world, what we give out as
knowledge to us, is only information to them, and the receivers have to go
through their unique process to turn it into knowledge.

I belive to transfer our knowledge for their learning to occur, there needs
to be thought put into the Content of the information, the Context of the
information, and reinforcement of the information from a variety of sources
and the dream cycle for the newly constructed knowledge or the
reinforcement of already constructed to be integrated into their knowledge
base.

The process is often that complex, you have to wonder how communication and
learning ever occur.

Cheers
tony

At 10:24 21/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Good day...
>
>
>Tony Nolan stated"...where was the actual learning occurring? - In the
>classroom, in the
>field, over the entire time, or all of the above".
>
>To me learning only occurs in the mind... :-) So how does one mind
>facilitate a different mind to acquire useful and productive skills
>instead of something else?
>
>Cordially,
>
>Esteban
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
>Visit us at http://www.neoris.com/



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From: John_Keifer@cibed.cob.ohiou.edu
[mailto:John_Keifer@cibed.cob.ohiou.edu]

"In God We Trust" would be a good start.

----------------
What type of language would you use in writing and presenting a syllabus
as
a covenant rather than a contract? I see the two as similar, although I
can see how the term covenant invokes values/principles over
details/dead-lines. Could you give quick examples of syllabi and course
introductions from these two perspectives.....

~~~~~~~~~
Kenneth G. Brown, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor and Huneke Faculty Research Fellow
Henry B. Tippie College of Business
108 John Pappajohn Business Building
University of Iowa
Iowa City, IA 52242
PH: 319.335.3812 FX: 319.335.1956


While there may be philosophical reasons to think of a syllabus as a
covenant rather than a contract, the reality is that is IS considered a
contract in the event of student complaints. In addition, accrediting
bodies are, to my knowledge, fairly insistent that syllabi adhere to
certain formats and language.

ED,

Thanks...

The difference between a contract and a covenant as I see it can be
expressed as the difference between the letter of the law vs. the spirit
of the law...

We can all find examples of contracts that can be interpreted
(misinterpreted) so that a client and provider both agrees to the terms of
satisfaction while each holding a different notion. In most cases the
spirit of the interaction prevails and both get the desired results though
when the interaction goes sour the provider can meet the contract clauses
and the client remain unsatisfied ...

In a covenant the specifics become quite irrelevant and things are to be
resolved in a joint interactions. In a contract the specific demands must
be determined before signing the document because whatever is omitted
becomes irrelevant and would require additional contracts to be dealt
with...

The teacher-student covenant in essence establishes that the student be
attentive and participate to the teachers journey and commands, which will
safely lead the student through a jungle of knowledge and meanings, and acquire useful and productive skills. The teacher-student contract on the other hand just establishes the
particular 'sites' to be visited...

BTW - I too share the notion that the distinction of the good vs. poor
student distracts us from the core issues. Having actively participating
motivated student... requires something more...

So how does a teacher facilitate a student to acquire useful and
productive skills, like motivation, like an active interest in
participating, like tacking advantage of the time they have as students,
of the good healthy opportunities at their hands? Succinctly put what does
a teacher need to do to inspire and motivate students to learn now and
into the future?

Cordially,

Esteban


____________________________________________________________________________
For your protection, this e-mail message has been scanned for viruses.
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Tony,

Thank you...

You present a couple of interesting paradoxes...

Certainly the notion that "the only absolute truth in this world, is that there isn't any" must be
false for the statement contradicts itself... You also touch on a
subjective cognitive interpretation which according to what you state
leads to all knowledge being subjective. Furthermore you even make the
claim that truth also happens to be subjective...

I hold an absolutist position instead of a relativistic one, though I
accept the fact that some may hold their particular relativistic positions
as absolute ... I have found that meanings are subjective, thus the
absolute meaning of 'xyz' depends not on 'xyz' but on whatever the being
meant by 'xyz'. We can look at any encoded message to validate this
fact...

In any event, I hold that knowledge only exists within the mind... so to
produce knowledge we output stimulus that induce others to reproduce
knowledge(hopefully without any kind of distortions). As you stated the
process is often complex, and we have to wonder how communication and
learning ever occur... I see teachers as facilitators and skilled
professionals that can induce and enable students to acquire knowledge,
the most important skill to acquire being a solid foundation as how each
best to acquire knowledge and shares it... Unfortunately I think most see
the role of a teachers as a speaker with a message and students as a
receptor that tune in to get the message...

My intentions has been to focus some attention into what I see as a
perverse and rather outdated process and maybe help induce some changes to
take place... Certainly we each have lots of ideas that need to be shared
and implemented; and unless we wonder out loud some things will remain the
same instead of evolving...

Cordially,

Esteban


____________________________________________________________________________
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esteban.trevino@neoris.com 11/21/02 06:48PM writes:
"Succinctly put what does a teacher need to do to inspire and motivate students to learn now and
into the future?
Cordially,
Esteban"

Dear Estaban,

I suggest the operative word for the answer to your question is influence. We, educators, must create influence to gain what you desire.

When I teach leadership, I teach that influence operationally means "getting another person to do what you [the leader] want them to do because they want to do it."

I go on to argue that influence is generated when the follower (student in this case) perceives the he/she has the locus of control and efficacy.

A large factor in generating influence is expectation management ala expectancy theory.

Kind wishes

Ed
Drive On!

Edrice,

I'm glad you wrote "the rest of us".

Learning is a primary tool for managing change. If students can come out of
an "educational process" with better abilities to think and learn, then that
process has, in my opinion, been successful. Even if they don't know that
particular subject matter.

A common theme in your three examples is acceptance of responsibility to
think, choose, and learn. It seems that taking responsibility for learning
is what other colleagues have wanted from their students.
I wrote earlier about teachers clarifying the value of courses. When I
do that, it is to provoke an active sense of responsibility. Not just to
learn, but to learn for a reason.

Edrice, please keep us on your list.

Best,

Gary

----------------------------
Pre-planning accelerates strategy accelerates performance

Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
garyl@market-engineering.com

I too was pleased that Edryce made his mistake and sent his mail to the
list. It seems to me that the issues discussed are central to this list.

At 08:18 25/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Edrice,
>
>I'm glad you wrote "the rest of us".
>
>Learning is a primary tool for managing change. If students can come out of
>an "educational process" with better abilities to think and learn, then that
>process has, in my opinion, been successful. Even if they don't know that
>particular subject matter.
>
>A common theme in your three examples is acceptance of responsibility to
>think, choose, and learn. It seems that taking responsibility for learning
>is what other colleagues have wanted from their students.
> I wrote earlier about teachers clarifying the value of courses. When I
>do that, it is to provoke an active sense of responsibility. Not just to
>learn, but to learn for a reason.
>
>Edrice, please keep us on your list.
>
>Best,
>
>Gary
>
>----------------------------
>Pre-planning accelerates strategy accelerates performance
>
>Gary Lundquist - The Accelerator
>303-840-9929 www.market-engineering.com
>garyl@market-engineering.com

Stephen Bennett
Department of Human Resource Management
Graham Hills Building
50 Richmond Street
Glasgow G1 1XT
Tel: 0141 548 3064/3287
Fax: 0141 552 3581

Hey, thanks! I like the sharing, but I never want to be "out of synch" with the flow of conversation.
I need to clarify something, though - I am female. And my name is Edryce. Don't be concerned about the assumption, though - it's been with me all my life.
Happy Thanksgiving, all.
Edryce
Stephen Bennett

Dear collegues, Like Edryce, I have a name that often leads to gender
confusion. In case we ever meet at the AOM meetings, look for a 57 year
old male.

Regards

Kimberly B. Boal

At 04:45 PM 11/27/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Hey, thanks! I like the sharing, but I never want to be "out of synch"
with the flow of conversation.
>I need to clarify something, though - I am female. And my name is Edryce.
Don't be concerned about the assumption, though - it's been with me all my
life.
>Happy Thanksgiving, all.
>Edryce
> Stephen Bennett

Hi Kim and Edryce,
In our department we have Gail, Lynn, and Chris...all males and
contemporaries to Kim and all that have had lifetimes of others'
confusion!
Chris

>Dear collegues, Like Edryce, I have a name that often leads to gender
>confusion. In case we ever meet at the AOM meetings, look for a 57 year
>old male.
>
>Regards
>
>Kimberly B. Boal
>
>At 04:45 PM 11/27/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>Hey, thanks! I like the sharing, but I never want to be "out of synch"
>with the flow of conversation.
>>I need to clarify something, though - I am female. And my name is Edryce.
> Don't be concerned about the assumption, though - it's been with me all my
>life.
>>Happy Thanksgiving, all.
>>Edryce
>> Stephen Bennett

There is actually a researcher collecting gender-free names to use in
gender-free examples.
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~mazlack/names.html

Cybercollegially,
Charles Wankel
Mg-Ed-Dv List Director

-----Original Message-----

Hi Kim and Edryce,
In our department we have Gail, Lynn, and Chris...all males and
contemporaries to Kim and all that have had lifetimes of others'
confusion!
Chris
--------------
>Dear collegues, Like Edryce, I have a name that often leads to gender
>confusion. In case we ever meet at the AOM meetings, look for a 57
year
>old male.
>Kimberly B. Boal