Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  Ropes and Lines: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 11:35
    Romie says:

    "I see great value in calling the twisted fibres on a
    boat deck ropes when not in use and lines when in use.
    Probably saves time and lives at sea. "

    Conna asks:

    What value?
    How does the label of the object save lives?

    When I "sailed" through a gale with hurricane gusts in 1962 in didn't make
    an iota of difference what we called the twisted fibres. In 8 summers of
    living on that sailboat and 8 years of racing it, not once did it make a
    difference.


  • 2.  Ropes and Lines: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 12:10
    Ah, but you KNOW the difference, so it doesn't matter to you. What
    about the person who is learning there is a difference? I am not a
    sailor, but the reference makes sense.

    First, let me say thanks to Conna and Esteban, for your insights, which
    often inspire.

    Both of your analogies help clarify this issue for me. I believe there
    is a difference between a rope and a line...determined by its use.
    Likewise for information and knowledge. There is more to this than just
    semantics, or a repackaged label.

    When we have "knowledge", we have information from a variety of
    contexts, and have the ability to choose which is the more appropriate
    application of that information in a particular context. Recently, they
    did some brain scans on experienced and novice chess players to see if
    the game really required a different thought process. It turns out that
    expertise really isn't superior thinking, but superior practice. The
    player who has practiced more moves is in a better position to know the
    implications of a particular move in a particular context. Being able
    to understand the context and make the proper application (from a wealth
    of background information and experience) is a lot different than being
    taught the correct choice or move.

    The dynamic nature of "knowledge" stands in sharp contrast to the static
    nature of "information". It comes from a lived experience. It is not a
    rope, it is a line. As an educator/trainer I find it difficult to say
    that I impart "knowledge". What is knowledge from my experience becomes
    information to others as I "teach".

    Then there is the analogy of the cultural archaeologist (my term for
    your description). If a future archaeologist were to come upon a
    repository of current information (book, disk, or whatever format),
    would s/he not be in the same situation as you describe ("we should be
    able to know and correctly interpret what cultures knew from what they
    left behind, but we know very little of what they meant without the
    proper decoders or translators.")?

    The tools (words in this case) we use today become the artifacts for
    future generations. How we used these tools would be conjecture for the
    archaeologist. S/he would have to make assumptions about the context in
    which the tools were used. No doubt, this might be an educated guess,
    and perhaps be quite accurate. But it would definitely lack certitude.
    How I and an Eskimo might use the word "snow" has already been
    described.




    -----Original Message-----
    From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:35 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: Ropes and Lines: Re: Decision Making thoughts...


    Romie says:

    "I see great value in calling the twisted fibres on a
    boat deck ropes when not in use and lines when in use.
    Probably saves time and lives at sea. "

    Conna asks:

    What value?
    How does the label of the object save lives?

    When I "sailed" through a gale with hurricane gusts in 1962 in didn't
    make an iota of difference what we called the twisted fibres. In 8
    summers of living on that sailboat and 8 years of racing it, not once
    did it make a difference.


  • 3.  Ropes and Lines: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 12:22
    This all reminds me of the HBR classic "The Parable of the Spindle"
    in which academics from several disciplines each look at a human
    relations problem in a restaurant from their respective perspectives
    and all arrive at the same solution.

    Chris poulson


    >Ah, but you KNOW the difference, so it doesn't matter to you. What
    >about the person who is learning there is a difference? I am not a
    >sailor, but the reference makes sense.
    >
    >First, let me say thanks to Conna and Esteban, for your insights, which
    >often inspire.
    >
    >Both of your analogies help clarify this issue for me. I believe there
    >is a difference between a rope and a line...determined by its use.
    >Likewise for information and knowledge. There is more to this than just
    >semantics, or a repackaged label.
    >
    >When we have "knowledge", we have information from a variety of
    >contexts, and have the ability to choose which is the more appropriate
    >application of that information in a particular context. Recently, they
    >did some brain scans on experienced and novice chess players to see if
    >the game really required a different thought process. It turns out that
    >expertise really isn't superior thinking, but superior practice. The
    >player who has practiced more moves is in a better position to know the
    >implications of a particular move in a particular context. Being able
    >to understand the context and make the proper application (from a wealth
    >of background information and experience) is a lot different than being
    >taught the correct choice or move.
    >
    >The dynamic nature of "knowledge" stands in sharp contrast to the static
    >nature of "information". It comes from a lived experience. It is not a
    >rope, it is a line. As an educator/trainer I find it difficult to say
    >that I impart "knowledge". What is knowledge from my experience becomes
    >information to others as I "teach". 
    >
    >Then there is the analogy of the cultural archaeologist (my term for
    >your description). If a future archaeologist were to come upon a
    >repository of current information (book, disk, or whatever format),
    >would s/he not be in the same situation as you describe ("we should be
    >able to know and correctly interpret what cultures knew from what they
    >left behind, but we know very little of what they meant without the
    >proper decoders or translators.")?
    >
    >The tools (words in this case) we use today become the artifacts for
    >future generations. How we used these tools would be conjecture for the
    >archaeologist. S/he would have to make assumptions about the context in
    >which the tools were used. No doubt, this might be an educated guess,
    >and perhaps be quite accurate. But it would definitely lack certitude.
    >How I and an Eskimo might use the word "snow" has already been
    >described.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: Conna Condon [mailto:gandolf@cyberverse.com]
    >Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 11:35 AM
    >To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    >Subject: Re: Ropes and Lines: Re: Decision Making thoughts...
    >
    >
    >Romie says:
    >
    >"I see great value in calling the twisted fibres on a
    >boat deck ropes when not in use and lines when in use.
    > Probably saves time and lives at sea. "
    >
    >Conna asks:
    >
    >What value?
    >How does the label of the object save lives?
    >
    >When I "sailed" through a gale with hurricane gusts in 1962 in didn't
    >make an iota of difference what we called the twisted fibres. In 8
    >summers of living on that sailboat and 8 years of racing it, not once
    >did it make a difference.


  • 4.  Ropes and Lines: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 14:44
    Modern life being modern life, I put "The Parable of the Spindle" into
    Google and up came a full-text copy of it on a site in India. It is 41
    years old, so I imagine it is a public domain item, though still I can
    imagine Harvard not being thrilled about this distribution channel.

    Charles

    -----Original Message-----

    This all reminds me of the HBR classic "The Parable of the Spindle"
    in which academics from several disciplines each look at a human
    relations problem in a restaurant from their respective perspectives
    and all arrive at the same solution.

    Chris poulson


  • 5.  Ropes and Lines: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 12:33
    We might blow out the tubes in the Internet, if we talk
    about our definition of management, let alone knowledge.
    Yet, it would be intriguing to see if we arrive at something
    at al the same. I hope we would not, even though the text
    writers among us might insist it is STILL PLOC.

    No need to take this bait. We have that WWW to care for.

    David





    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chris Poulson [mailto:cfpoulson@csupomona.edu]
    Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:22 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    Subject: Re: [MG-ED-DV] Ropes and Lines: Re: Decision Making thoughts...


    This all reminds me of the HBR classic "The Parable of the Spindle"
    in which academics from several disciplines each look at a human
    relations problem in a restaurant from their respective perspectives
    and all arrive at the same solution.

    Chris poulson


  • 6.  Ropes and Lines: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 19:37
    Bob,

    Yes, future archaeologist (assuming they lost track of what we once did)
    may see the things we used without a clue nor a means to reproduce the
    encoded knowledge and be in the same situation I described... Just imagine
    what it would take to decipher from a cd the original information without
    having the mechanisms to read the 0 and 1, convert them into words and
    actually knowing how to interpret (correctly) the produced artifacts... Of
    course future archeologist could find clues and artifacts which could help
    and lead them to reproduce the knowledge. They might be able to find a way
    to trace, from where they stand and know, all the way to were we stand and
    know (correcting any misdirection's). Though some times that trace simply
    does not exist... Does anyone know the actual knowledge and purpose that
    those who built Stonehenge had? How about other knowledge from
    civilizations that no longer exist? Hieroglyphics where incorrectly
    interpreted until a stone that contained both a known language and a
    translation into that system served to understand the code used...

    Today we even have problems moving knowledge from one society to another
    because of the things we take for granted which happen to be so in one
    society but are quite different in other societies. This even takes place
    in organizations, systems and even software... Ever experience trying to
    open a document without the right software? I have even had problems dew
    to the version number of software used...

    Unless we have the artifacts to correctly decipher the stimulus, we will
    have quite a difficult time to actually get at the encoded whatever,
    communicate and interact with each other... Getting the artifacts is a
    life long process of discovery. Some experience this in a quite a limited
    way, sure most learn to communicate and interact in some form though few
    take advantage of the full potential available... As educators we should
    be able to help them discover the full potential, unfortunately we also
    suffer from the same ailments.

    The bottom line comes down to figuring out ways of effectively interacting
    with others and consciously sharing what we know and getting mutually
    enriched. Hopefully the interaction will lead to the discovery and
    adoption of the better ways of being while also rejecting unsustainable
    ways of being. Unfortunately most seem more preoccupied with their
    individual desires and existence, with maintaining what they hold with
    establishing an image of authority and superiority. Competition instead of
    collaboration rules in the world today. Just look at the parable of the
    spindle, three disciplines could not effectively work together to solve a
    problem because they lacked the language to interact... (I will finish
    reading the case later today...)

    One of my concerns centers on 'knowledge management' and that is why I
    raised the point that I perceive many takes a useful abstraction instead
    of focusing on the involved processes...

    Cordially,

    Esteban
    ____________________________________________________________________________
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  • 7.  Ropes and Lines: Decision Making thoughts...

    Posted 01-08-2003 22:29
    I read military history for a hobby, and am currently reading a work dealing with training sailors on British warships in the 18th and 19th centuries. Seems to me that when you are dealing with complete novices, e.g., recruits from a press gang, the distinction could be useful. An order to release that rope would have a different effect than intended if the recruit released a line.
    Conna Condon <gandolf@cyberverse.com> wrote:Romie says:

    "I see great value in calling the twisted fibres on a
    boat deck ropes when not in use and lines when in use.
    Probably saves time and lives at sea. "

    Conna asks:

    What value?
    How does the label of the object save lives?

    When I "sailed" through a gale with hurricane gusts in 1962 in didn't make
    an iota of difference what we called the twisted fibres. In 8 summers of
    living on that sailboat and 8 years of racing it, not once did it make a
    difference.

    Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
    Facutly of Business
    Auckland University of Technology
    Private Bag 1020
    Auckland 1020, New Zealand
    Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629



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