Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-23-2003 09:47
    Computer-based monitoring systems of the future that he Defense Advanced
    Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is developing will enable computers to
    remember how each student learns and interacts with the educational
    management system, and then tailor lessons accordingly.
    http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html

    I wonder what the spectrum of "how a student learns" will be presented and
    used. Is this something related to learning styles research? That is, new
    ways to determine a student's learning style by which tools they utilize
    first and most in something like WebCT. Similarly mode of interaction with
    the learning system is interesting. If a student goes to videos for
    information to do an assignment rather than a computerized simulation,
    perhaps the system might focus on providing the student with video-based
    instruction more after that.

    Cybercollegially,
    Charles Wankel


  • 2.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-23-2003 11:01
    From: hmiller2 [mailto:hmiller2@uswest.net]

    From a post by Charles Wankel:

    "Computer-based monitoring systems of the future that he Defense Advanced
    Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is developing will enable computers to
    remember how each student learns and interacts with the educational
    management system, and then tailor lessons accordingly."
    http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html


    Sounds like the media hype surrounding programmed instruction of 1970's
    fame. Color me skeptical. What's more interesting is that the educational
    purposes of the work are not the driving force - national security in the
    John Poindexter, "there's nothing we shouldn't know about you" sense seems
    to be the reason for it's existence. That's pretty misguided.

    Howard Miller
    hmiller2@uswest.net


  • 3.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-23-2003 14:24
    The news blurb is barely that - a blurb. Nonetheless, a couple thoughts pop
    up right away.

    1) There is a group of individuals who harbor the thought that if a little
    information is dangerous, and lots of information is the modern age, then
    whole gobs of data (information?) should be wonderful.

    2) the problem with whole gobs of information is that you have to dig
    through it to find the useful stuff. What we really want to know is the
    relationships between things, _and_ the specific values of the causative
    things.

    Does the fact that I scoured my eyeballs shoveling snow on a sunny morning at
    the age of 16 mean that I should view the heads up display on my fighter jet
    differently?

    3) Finding the relationships between things is the realm of "design of
    Experiments" and, arguably, data mining and neural nets. Those who understand
    the first often have a hard time with those who think they know the second &
    third, and for good reason.

    4) all the gobs of data in the world, which is getting substantial if DARPA
    can afford it, will do little good until the relationships are understood.
    Will DARPA be working on building/discovering those relationships as well as
    collecting data?

    5) I wish DARPA well, but my skepticism is based on the technology of
    discovering and using _information_, as opposed to _data_.

    Cheers,
    Jay

    Charles Wankel wrote:

    > Computer-based monitoring systems of the future that he Defense Advanced
    > Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is developing will enable computers to
    > remember how each student learns and interacts with the educational
    > management system, and then tailor lessons accordingly.
    > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html
    >
    > I wonder what the spectrum of "how a student learns" will be presented and
    > used. Is this something related to learning styles research? That is, new
    > ways to determine a student's learning style by which tools they utilize
    > first and most in something like WebCT. Similarly mode of interaction with
    > the learning system is interesting. If a student goes to videos for
    > information to do an assignment rather than a computerized simulation,
    > perhaps the system might focus on providing the student with video-based
    > instruction more after that.
    >
    > Cybercollegially,
    > Charles Wankel

    --
    Jay Warner
    Principal Scientist
    Warner Consulting, Inc.
    4444 North Green Bay Road
    Racine, WI 53404-1216
    USA

    Ph: (262) 634-9100
    FAX: (262) 681-1133
    email: quality@a2q.com
    web: http://www.a2q.com

    The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?


  • 4.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-25-2003 03:23
    If we can present in multiple modes, why not let the
    student choose the medium he or she wishes to use? I
    know students are only objects we present
    instructional materials to, but I've discovered a few
    can make choices for themselves.
    Regards,
    Romie Littrell

    --- Jay Warner <quality@a2q.com> wrote: > The news
    blurb is barely that - a blurb.
    > Nonetheless, a couple thoughts pop
    > up right away.
    >
    > 1) There is a group of individuals who harbor the
    > thought that if a little
    > information is dangerous, and lots of information is
    > the modern age, then
    > whole gobs of data (information?) should be
    > wonderful.
    >
    > 2) the problem with whole gobs of information is
    > that you have to dig
    > through it to find the useful stuff. What we really
    > want to know is the
    > relationships between things, _and_ the specific
    > values of the causative
    > things.
    >
    > Does the fact that I scoured my eyeballs shoveling
    > snow on a sunny morning at
    > the age of 16 mean that I should view the heads up
    > display on my fighter jet
    > differently?
    >
    > 3) Finding the relationships between things is
    > the realm of "design of
    > Experiments" and, arguably, data mining and neural
    > nets. Those who understand
    > the first often have a hard time with those who
    > think they know the second &
    > third, and for good reason.
    >
    > 4) all the gobs of data in the world, which is
    > getting substantial if DARPA
    > can afford it, will do little good until the
    > relationships are understood.
    > Will DARPA be working on building/discovering those
    > relationships as well as
    > collecting data?
    >
    > 5) I wish DARPA well, but my skepticism is based
    > on the technology of
    > discovering and using _information_, as opposed to
    > _data_.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Jay
    >
    > Charles Wankel wrote:
    >
    > > Computer-based monitoring systems of the future
    > that he Defense Advanced
    > > Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is developing
    > will enable computers to
    > > remember how each student learns and interacts
    > with the educational
    > > management system, and then tailor lessons
    > accordingly.
    > >
    >
    http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html
    > >
    > > I wonder what the spectrum of "how a student
    > learns" will be presented and
    > > used. Is this something related to learning
    > styles research? That is, new
    > > ways to determine a student's learning style by
    > which tools they utilize
    > > first and most in something like WebCT. Similarly
    > mode of interaction with
    > > the learning system is interesting. If a student
    > goes to videos for
    > > information to do an assignment rather than a
    > computerized simulation,
    > > perhaps the system might focus on providing the
    > student with video-based
    > > instruction more after that.
    > >
    > > Cybercollegially,
    > > Charles Wankel
    >
    > --
    > Jay Warner
    > Principal Scientist
    > Warner Consulting, Inc.
    > 4444 North Green Bay Road
    > Racine, WI 53404-1216
    > USA
    >
    > Ph: (262) 634-9100
    > FAX: (262) 681-1133
    > email: quality@a2q.com
    > web: http://www.a2q.com
    >
    > The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve
    today?

    =====
    Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
    Facutly of Business, Auckland University of Technology
    Private Bag 1020
    Auckland 1020, New Zealand
    Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629
    http://www.romielittrellpubs.homestead.com/
    http://www.crossculturalcentre.homestead.com/

    __________________________________________________
    It's Samaritans' Week. Help Samaritans help others.
    Call 08709 000032 to give or donate online now at http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm


  • 5.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-25-2003 09:27
    Romie,

    I agree with you and appreciate the ironic tone. :-)

    I worry that one of the consequences of observing a preferred way of
    acting (learning) in one situation and inferring that this is always the
    preferred way of acting will limit choice, growth and academic freedom as
    well as being ripe for all kinds of Orwellian described manipulations.

    best of thinking to us all

    Alice Macpherson
    Professional Development Support Services
    Kwantlen University College
    604 599-2426

    "Honesty without compassion and understanding is not honesty, but subtle
    hostility" ? Rose N. Franzblau (1966)






    Romie Littrell <littrellaom@yahoo.co.nz>
    Sent by: Management Education and Development Discussion
    <MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
    05/25/03 12:22 AM
    Please respond to Management Education and Development Discussion


    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    cc:
    Subject: Re: Management education of the future


    If we can present in multiple modes, why not let the
    student choose the medium he or she wishes to use? I
    know students are only objects we present
    instructional materials to, but I've discovered a few
    can make choices for themselves.
    Regards,
    Romie Littrell

    --- Jay Warner <quality@a2q.com> wrote: > The news
    blurb is barely that - a blurb.
    > Nonetheless, a couple thoughts pop
    > up right away.
    >
    > 1) There is a group of individuals who harbor the
    > thought that if a little
    > information is dangerous, and lots of information is
    > the modern age, then
    > whole gobs of data (information?) should be
    > wonderful.
    >
    > 2) the problem with whole gobs of information is
    > that you have to dig
    > through it to find the useful stuff. What we really
    > want to know is the
    > relationships between things, _and_ the specific
    > values of the causative
    > things.
    >
    > Does the fact that I scoured my eyeballs shoveling
    > snow on a sunny morning at
    > the age of 16 mean that I should view the heads up
    > display on my fighter jet
    > differently?
    >
    > 3) Finding the relationships between things is
    > the realm of "design of
    > Experiments" and, arguably, data mining and neural
    > nets. Those who understand
    > the first often have a hard time with those who
    > think they know the second &
    > third, and for good reason.
    >
    > 4) all the gobs of data in the world, which is
    > getting substantial if DARPA
    > can afford it, will do little good until the
    > relationships are understood.
    > Will DARPA be working on building/discovering those
    > relationships as well as
    > collecting data?
    >
    > 5) I wish DARPA well, but my skepticism is based
    > on the technology of
    > discovering and using _information_, as opposed to
    > _data_.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Jay
    >
    > Charles Wankel wrote:
    >
    > > Computer-based monitoring systems of the future
    > that he Defense Advanced
    > > Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is developing
    > will enable computers to
    > > remember how each student learns and interacts
    > with the educational
    > > management system, and then tailor lessons
    > accordingly.
    > >
    >
    http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html
    > >
    > > I wonder what the spectrum of "how a student
    > learns" will be presented and
    > > used. Is this something related to learning
    > styles research? That is, new
    > > ways to determine a student's learning style by
    > which tools they utilize
    > > first and most in something like WebCT. Similarly
    > mode of interaction with
    > > the learning system is interesting. If a student
    > goes to videos for
    > > information to do an assignment rather than a
    > computerized simulation,
    > > perhaps the system might focus on providing the
    > student with video-based
    > > instruction more after that.
    > >
    > > Cybercollegially,
    > > Charles Wankel
    >
    > --
    > Jay Warner
    > Principal Scientist
    > Warner Consulting, Inc.
    > 4444 North Green Bay Road
    > Racine, WI 53404-1216
    > USA
    >
    > Ph: (262) 634-9100
    > FAX: (262) 681-1133
    > email: quality@a2q.com
    > web: http://www.a2q.com
    >
    > The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve
    today?

    =====
    Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
    Facutly of Business, Auckland University of Technology
    Private Bag 1020
    Auckland 1020, New Zealand
    Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629
    http://www.romielittrellpubs.homestead.com/
    http://www.crossculturalcentre.homestead.com/

    __________________________________________________
    It's Samaritans' Week. Help Samaritans help others.
    Call 08709 000032 to give or donate online now at http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm


  • 6.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-25-2003 10:53
    This will come across as way beyond "ironic," but here goes.

    In my not-so-humble opinion, management education of the future should loosen up. We should stop thinking the "professors" are experts, especially experts in how students learn. Turn the learning over to the real experts, the students. Get a clue from Semco (Brazil). Get another clue from Carl Rogers and his "student-centered" teaching. Yet another clue from Sudbury Valley School in Framingham, Mass. And finally, read Mary Parker Follett. [I don't remember any particulars she said about learning, but I just threw her in because she should be read by all managers.]

    We won't be limiting choice, growth, or academic freedom (exactly how does that freedom manifest itself anyway? It doesn't seem like freedom to me) if we put the focus on the student, recognize that the student has a brain and can learn (his/her own way! - and that way may change), get out of the way, and allow the learning to happen.

    We overestimate how much influence we have on student learning. Our primary influence is our example. How do WE go about learning something new? Do we allow students to teach US? Do we admit when we don't know something. Are we excited about learning something new, or looking at things in a new way? We all learn more by watching others than by listening to what they say.

    Sorry. Just had to say all that.

    Edryce
    Alice Macpherson <Alice.Macpherson@kwantlen.ca> wrote:
    Romie,

    I agree with you and appreciate the ironic tone. :-)

    I worry that one of the consequences of observing a preferred way of
    acting (learning) in one situation and inferring that this is always the
    preferred way of acting will limit choice, growth and academic freedom as
    well as being ripe for all kinds of Orwellian described manipulations.

    best of thinking to us all

    Alice Macpherson
    Professional Development Support Services
    Kwantlen University College
    604 599-2426

    "Honesty without compassion and understanding is not honesty, but subtle
    hostility" ? Rose N. Franzblau (1966)






    Romie Littrell

    Sent by: Management Education and Development Discussion

    05/25/03 12:22 AM
    Please respond to Management Education and Development Discussion


    To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
    cc:
    Subject: Re: Management education of the future


    If we can present in multiple modes, why not let the
    student choose the medium he or she wishes to use? I
    know students are only objects we present
    instructional materials to, but I've discovered a few
    can make choices for themselves.
    Regards,
    Romie Littrell

    --- Jay Warner wrote: > The news
    blurb is barely that - a blurb.
    > Nonetheless, a couple thoughts pop
    > up right away.
    >
    > 1) There is a group of individuals who harbor the
    > thought that if a little
    > information is dangerous, and lots of information is
    > the modern age, then
    > whole gobs of data (information?) should be
    > wonderful.
    >
    > 2) the problem with whole gobs of information is
    > that you have to dig
    > through it to find the useful stuff. What we really
    > want to know is the
    > relationships between things, _and_ the specific
    > values of the causative
    > things.
    >
    > Does the fact that I scoured my eyeballs shoveling
    > snow on a sunny morning at
    > the age of 16 mean that I should view the heads up
    > display on my fighter jet
    > differently?
    >
    > 3) Finding the relationships between things is
    > the realm of "design of
    > Experiments" and, arguably, data mining and neural
    > nets. Those who understand
    > the first often have a hard time with those who
    > think they know the second &
    > third, and for good reason.
    >
    > 4) all the gobs of data in the world, which is
    > getting substantial if DARPA
    > can afford it, will do little good until the
    > relationships are understood.
    > Will DARPA be working on building/discovering those
    > relationships as well as
    > collecting data?
    >
    > 5) I wish DARPA well, but my skepticism is based
    > on the technology of
    > discovering and using _information_, as opposed to
    > _data_.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Jay
    >
    > Charles Wankel wrote:
    >
    > > Computer-based monitoring systems of the future
    > that he Defense Advanced
    > > Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is developing
    > will enable computers to
    > > remember how each student learns and interacts
    > with the educational
    > > management system, and then tailor lessons
    > accordingly.
    > >
    >
    http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58909,00.html
    > >
    > > I wonder what the spectrum of "how a student
    > learns" will be presented and
    > > used. Is this something related to learning
    > styles research? That is, new
    > > ways to determine a student's learning style by
    > which tools they utilize
    > > first and most in something like WebCT. Similarly
    > mode of interaction with
    > > the learning system is interesting. If a student
    > goes to videos for
    > > information to do an assignment rather than a
    > computerized simulation,
    > > perhaps the system might focus on providing the
    > student with video-based
    > > instruction more after that.
    > >
    > > Cybercollegially,
    > > Charles Wankel
    >
    > --
    > Jay Warner
    > Principal Scientist
    > Warner Consulting, Inc.
    > 4444 North Green Bay Road
    > Racine, WI 53404-1216
    > USA
    >
    > Ph: (262) 634-9100
    > FAX: (262) 681-1133
    > email: quality@a2q.com
    > web: http://www.a2q.com
    >
    > The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve
    today?

    =====
    Prof. Romie F. Littrell, Ph.D.
    Facutly of Business, Auckland University of Technology
    Private Bag 1020
    Auckland 1020, New Zealand
    Fax (64) 9 - 917 -9629
    http://www.romielittrellpubs.homestead.com/
    http://www.crossculturalcentre.homestead.com/

    __________________________________________________
    It's Samaritans' Week. Help Samaritans help others.
    Call 08709 000032 to give or donate online now at http://www.samaritans.org/support/donations.shtm


    ---------------------------------
    Do you Yahoo!?
    The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.


  • 7.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-25-2003 12:30
    Edryce,
    I think Victorian thinkers such as Follett (1868-1933) and Alfred
    North Whitehead (1861-1948) received the intellectual breezes of the early
    twentieth century. One of these was Einstein's theory of relativity which
    as Einstein in "The Theory of Relativity" sums it up was that "relation is
    all". That is, the organic, systemic, integration of things. Follett wrote
    of integrating education with the larger community that it was nested
    within. She wrote of democracy and participation in education. I see the
    biological analogies that emerged as system theory in later management
    writing there too in her post-Darwin work. However, ultimately, I find
    examining such seeds of present ideas to be a matter of historical footnotes
    than really stimulation for current practice or theory.
    http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-foll.htm
    http://www.follettfoundation.org/current.htm
    Recognizing that women management thinkers have been somewhat slighted in
    the recognition of their prescient ideas in management history,
    Cybercollegially,
    Charles Wankel

    -----Original Message-----

    In my not-so-humble opinion, management education of the future should
    loosen up. We should stop thinking the "professors" are experts, especially
    experts in how students learn. Turn the learning over to the real experts,
    the students. Get a clue from Semco (Brazil). Get another clue from Carl
    Rogers and his "student-centered" teaching. Yet another clue from Sudbury
    Valley School in Framingham, Mass. And finally, read Mary Parker Follett.
    [I don't remember any particulars she said about learning, but I just threw
    her in because she should be read by all managers.]

    Edryce


  • 8.  Management education of the future

    Posted 05-26-2003 12:11
    Edryce Reynolds, Alice Macpherson and Rommie Littrell, plus others,
    are taking/have taken this discussion to a higher level. A rarity in
    news group discussions generally, IMHO.

    I think that describing the "Management education of the future" is
    easier, and more difficult, than the discussion has suggested.

    At the risk of putting words in their collective mouths, I'd summarize
    them as saying that students' synapses get changed (i.e., students are
    educated) well in different ways - they interact effectively with the
    subject matter in different ways.

    Secondly, students understand this and should have some freedom to
    select the mode of interaction from alternatives. Professors should
    not claim to be the original, or only, fount of wisdom & knowledge. I
    would add that most professors at four year institutions are
    uninformed about, or at least have not yet integrated, the academic
    subject of knowledge transfer (education?) between individuals. (IMOX
    - in my observation & experience.) I personally think that students'
    personal insight into learning is only intuitive and often weak.

    Let us accept that there is a fairly clear BOK - body of knowledge,
    which is called Management, and that we wish to instill this BOK, plus
    individualized fillips, into youngish, well scrubbed, fee paying individuals.

    The best way to do this would be for the student to undergo some sort
    of evaluation to find how they learn most completely and quickly - are
    they a kinesthetic "learner," auditory, visual or another? Do they
    prefer to build generalized concepts from a welter of examples, or can
    they handle 'top-down' explications? What is their current level of
    mathematical abstraction ability?

    If "best" equals short time, then learning the generalized concepts
    usually means stating them explicitly early on, at just the right
    moment for the lights to go on. If "best" means most deeply,
    expecting the student to articulate the generalizations is usually the
    effective approach.

    Of course, the instructor should have integrated the concepts of
    Bloom's taxonomy into the BOK well enough to present it up to the
    desired taxonomy level and declare a student victory when they reach
    that level so they can move on.

    Gee, this is beginning to sound pretty good! I wonder how I could do
    that in practice!

    Suppose I select my one sub-set of the subject, statistical analysis -
    aka fact-based decision making. I walk into the first class, to face
    10-20 of those well scrubbed faces. In my world they are aiming for a
    BS in Management or Business Administration, or an MBA. In their
    minds the diploma is somehow linked with improved job and income
    prospects. The education represented by the diploma may or may not be
    linked. I have been given a book, plus an extended syllabus with
    detailed discussion topics and course book assignments. Depending on
    the class, I may or may not
    have specific software, and I am certainly expected to use whatever is
    given. Occasionally students are traumatized by the name "MS Excel."
    Oh, did I say the course is "accelerated," meaning that dwelling on
    any one portion means the syllabus will not be completed? If this is
    week 4, we must already understand confidence intervals.

    Student self insight into learning modes is usually intuitive, at
    best. We do all agree that lectures don't work, even though they are
    prescribed when "best" equals fastest. Since learning is an
    interaction kind of thing, this means the instructors have to know
    themselves as well. (One of my more personally painful classes, but
    most effective, occurred when I did a problem the way the students
    wanted, not as I wanted.)

    Even if students did know themselves educationally, how are we going
    to present 4 different methodologies? We aren't - we are going to
    present different approaches to the same thing. Unless 'accelerated'
    is taken literally, in which case the instructor will adopt mostly one
    mode and push it. If the syllabus is followed literally (it can get
    pretty detailed) that decision has already been made. Thinking
    'futureward,' an on-line course would need to have at least 4
    different methodologies, some of which are more or less impossible at
    a computer screen and keyboard.

    The syllabus has already decided what Bloom level is acceptable,
    whether or not it articulates the fact. "Accelerated" usually means
    the second level only, in any case. Whether or not the instructor ,
    or the authoring professor, has opinions on the subject.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to rant over my personal lot in life.

    What needs to happen, IMHO, is to decide up front, how much depth
    (Bloom level) is needed for a successful graduate, in each specialty
    making up the Management BOK. This has to be broken down by course
    when there is more than one in a topic area. When a topic is used in
    more than one course, the courses must be aligned. Train the
    instructors in application of the Bloom level to the specialty
    (consistent, not PR application), train the instructors in the
    implications of "learning style," with respect to the instructor -
    student interaction, and then force the instructors,
    and the syllabus authors, to provide alternative student - material
    and student - instructor interactions. The School needs to be honest
    with the students about the Bloom level intended and expected. The
    School needs to be honest about the linkage between the subject
    content and future job and income prospects.

    Edryce says that 'We should stop thinking the "professors" are
    experts, especially experts in how students learn.' Dead on. If I
    walk into a business operation at 8:00 am, with the intent of everyone
    following a 'path to a solution' for a specific problem by 4:30
    (which I have done many times), I will say up front that I don't know
    the solution to the problem, but I do know how to find out. And I
    will add that the 'troops' - the people on the project team, already
    know the answers to half the questions I will ask.

    If we now say that the 'problem' is changing synapses - education to a
    certain Bloom level on a specific set of micro-topics, I can place the
    instructor/professor in exactly the same situation as I face at 8:00
    in that operation. I should add that, IMHO, I can use exactly the
    same steps to isolate, identify and follow a 'path to a solution.'
    (Horns & alarums: the A2Q Method (tm). :)

    Now, may I be permitted to develop a statistics course along these
    lines? Can we (especially you professors, who write those syllabi)
    develop our courses in such a fashion? It would make one heck of a
    "Management education of the future."

    With great respect and not a little pleading,
    and respectful & happy (American) Memorial Day to you all. We need to
    work on adding fewer gravestones for everyone.

    Jay
    --
    Jay Warner
    Principal Scientist
    Warner Consulting, Inc.
    4444 North Green Bay Road
    Racine, WI 53404-1216
    USA

    Ph: (262) 634-9100
    FAX: (262) 681-1133
    email: quality@a2q.com
    web: http://www.a2q.com

    The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?