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I may have missed some of this thread, but I believe I read most of it. I have some comments to add, and a question.

The question is mainly to Erwin: What is the goal of your questions? I am not clear on what we would be trying to accomplish as we grapple with those issues.

In response to the many posts lately, I offer my own point of view.

First, management curricula seem to be based on an assumption that all students will become managers. This seems to be an especially strong assumption that MBA students often make. The fact is, they WILL NOT become managers, certainly not immediately. An important question should be addressed in the curriculum: what can we do to become "leaders" even when we have no official "authority"? This issue is not addressed as far as I can tell. My MBA is now 10 years old, though, so maybe things have changed.

Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a look at what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade they want. Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take a back seat to the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students to think about things, then somehow it has to be related to a grade or a student will generally not do it.

We do have courses in decision making in the curriculum, don't we?

Third, most students who went straight from high school to college, then to grad school have NO experience in a workgroup. How could they be expected to know how to think critically about issues that seem to cry out for experience? Also, some instructors have had little or no experience other than teaching. That is a definite drawback to the entire process.

Fourth, the "dumbing down" of students in the US grows apace. Students cannot be blamed for what has happened to them prior to college and grad school. "Waking them up" is a massive job! Many refuse to wake up - it has served them well to do what's required and no more, so why change?

Fifth, "the problem" consists almost entirely of MANAGERS in the workplace, not theory, or how well prepared students are. As an example, I am a "worker" in a situation, and my manager does not encourage critical thinking. The manager gives a clear directive that we are to remain in our "boxes" and not get out of it. The challenge here is to try to find ways to "educate" that manager, and that is one gigantic task! So it doesn't matter that in my MBA program I learned all these neat things; I can't use them! Students of today should have experience (simulations) of such real life situations so that they know how to "lead" even from below.

Last, I buy Gary's approach of asking questions rather than presenting answers. As a consultant, that seems to be the best way to proceed. As a teacher/instructor/professor, though, what indeed is the best way to proceed? It's not easy.

Edryce


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I may have missed some of this thread, but I believe I read most of it. I have some comments to add, and a question.

The question is mainly to Erwin: What is the goal of your questions? I am not clear on what we would be trying to accomplish as we grapple with those issues.

In response to the many posts lately, I offer my own point of view.

First, management curricula seem to be based on an assumption that all students will become managers. This seems to be an especially strong assumption that MBA students often make. The fact is, they WILL NOT become managers, certainly not immediately. An important question should be addressed in the curriculum: what can we do to become "leaders" even when we have no official "authority"? This issue is not addressed as far as I can tell. My MBA is now 10 years old, though, so maybe things have changed.

Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a look at what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade they want. Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take a back seat to the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students to think about things, then somehow it has to be related to a grade or a student will generally not do it.

We do have courses in decision making in the curriculum, don't we?

Third, most students who went straight from high school to college, then to grad school have NO experience in a workgroup. How could they be expected to know how to think critically about issues that seem to cry out for experience? Also, some instructors have had little or no experience other than teaching. That is a definite drawback to the entire process.

Fourth, the "dumbing down" of students in the US grows apace. Students cannot be blamed for what has happened to them prior to college and grad school. "Waking them up" is a massive job! Many refuse to wake up - it has served them well to do what's required and no more, so why change?

Fifth, "the problem" consists almost entirely of MANAGERS in the workplace, not theory, or how well prepared students are. As an example, I am a "worker" in a situation, and my manager does not encourage critical thinking. The manager gives a clear directive that we are to remain in our "boxes" and not get out of it. The challenge here is to try to find ways to "educate" that manager, and that is one gigantic task! So it doesn't matter that in my MBA program I learned all these neat things; I can't use them! Students of today should have experience (simulations) of such real life situations so that they know how to "lead" even from below.

Last, I buy Gary's approach of asking questions rather than presenting answers. As a consultant, that seems to be the best way to proceed. As a teacher/instructor/professor, though, what indeed is the best way to proceed? It's not easy.

Edryce



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From: Rusty Rae [mailto:rustyrae@comcast.net]

As is usual Edryce makes some valuable and salient points. A couple of
additional points to ponder:

snip


Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree
generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a look at
what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade they want.
Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take a back seat to
the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students to think about things,
then somehow it has to be related to a grade or a student will generally not
do it.

How about if we just remove the grade. It seems to me that the grade gets in
the way of thinking. Rather than consider what is to be learned, too many
students consider "what do I have to do to get (my grade)". Pass - Fail has
its merits -- it does make more work for the teacher since the teacher is
now reporting on the total student performance as opposed to just an
objective grade based on tests, papers, etc.

We do have courses in decision making in the curriculum, don't we?

My experience is that the decision making course was about statistics and
not really about making decisions. There was little room for anhything other
than "What do the numbers say?" I am not sure who the quote is from, it
might be Einstein, bugt it goes something like "Sometimes that which counts
most, can not be counted."
-rr

> From: Rusty Rae [mailto:rustyrae@comcast.net]
>
> As is usual Edryce makes some valuable and salient points.
>
> Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree
> generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a look at
> what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade they want.
> Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take a back seat to
> the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students to think about things,
> then somehow it has to be related to a grade or a student will generally not
> do it.

the only currency an instructor has is the grade. A CEO has $, at the crudest
level. Instructors have points toward a grade.

Rather than decry the situation, why not use it?

Cheers,
Jay
--
Jay Warner
Principal Scientist
Warner Consulting, Inc.
4444 North Green Bay Road
Racine, WI 53404-1216
USA

Ph: (262) 634-9100
FAX: (262) 681-1133
email: quality@a2q.com
web: http://www.a2q.com

The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?

I agree that the grade is all we have and we can use it. But more and
more students want a very specific breakdown of exactly how the grade is
being calculated and are looking for a 'rational' objective system. In
other words, they don't want your judgment in there. Of course, other
than multiple choice or true false exams, everything we due is subject
to our judgment and experience and sense of quality. Students will
argue at great length why their work is as good as somebody else's and
often refuse to hear the criticism. Rarely do they come to see you
about a disappointing grade because they are really looking to improve
but often it is to lobby for a higher grade and to badger you to change
it.

How would you grade a student on thinking skills, conceptual ability
etc. I have tried self-evaluation and don't find it that effective.
Maybe at the graduate level but at the undergraduate they are not mature
enough often to be able to handle this well. Often they aren't taking
our courses because of a love of learning but to get a good grade to get
out to get a good job etc etc. I remember my own undergrad experience
and in most cases, I was exactly the same. It was only when I returned
to school in my mid-thirties that I really came to love and appreciate
the experience. Undergrads are young and schools is a mean to an end in
most cases.

I would be very interested in hearing from those who were able to do
this successfully. And if so, how did you measure success. How did you
know it worked and was effective?

Best to all

Deborah Nixon
University of Toronto
704 Windermere Ave
Toronto Ont M6S 3M1
Ph: 416-763-6985
Fax: 416-763-3361



-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay Warner
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 9:32 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: Response to "lateral thinking"


> From: Rusty Rae [mailto:rustyrae@comcast.net]
>
> As is usual Edryce makes some valuable and salient points.
>
> Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree
> generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a
> look at what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade
> they want. Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take

> a back seat to the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students
> to think about things, then somehow it has to be related to a grade or

> a student will generally not do it.

the only currency an instructor has is the grade. A CEO has $, at the
crudest level. Instructors have points toward a grade.

Rather than decry the situation, why not use it?

Cheers,
Jay
--
Jay Warner
Principal Scientist
Warner Consulting, Inc.
4444 North Green Bay Road
Racine, WI 53404-1216
USA

Ph: (262) 634-9100
FAX: (262) 681-1133
email: quality@a2q.com
web: http://www.a2q.com

The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?

In her fifth point, Edryce states that the problem is almost entirely with
managers in the workplace and that the challenge is to find ways to educate
them.


I agree that there's a widespread problem with managers but not with the
proposed solution. One thing we need to ask is how many of these "problem"
managers are management graduates? I suspect that while a good percentage of
managers may not have much formal education, another important percentage
are in fact management graduates. If this is so, then why do they still seem
to be the source of blockage rather than progress? Have they changed so much
since graduation? Some undoubtedly have but not all, especially those who
completed degrees after starting up the management ladder (a growing
percentage of the population in management education). Part of the answer
then points back to management education and not emphasizing the right
things. We can't ever hope to change all managers out there. While there's
important work to do at that level, just as important work remains creating
a mind set that will survive the transition from school to work. The current
generation will eventually retire. We need to make sure the next generation
is ready to take over.

Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: November 12, 2003 14:41 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: [MG-ED-DV] Response to "lateral thinking"


I may have missed some of this thread, but I believe I read most of it. I
have some comments to add, and a question.

The question is mainly to Erwin: What is the goal of your questions? I am
not clear on what we would be trying to accomplish as we grapple with those
issues.

In response to the many posts lately, I offer my own point of view.

First, management curricula seem to be based on an assumption that all
students will become managers. This seems to be an especially strong
assumption that MBA students often make. The fact is, they WILL NOT become
managers, certainly not immediately. An important question should be
addressed in the curriculum: what can we do to become "leaders" even when
we have no official "authority"? This issue is not addressed as far as I
can tell. My MBA is now 10 years old, though, so maybe things have changed.

Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree
generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a look at
what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade they want.
Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take a back seat to
the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students to think about things,
then somehow it has to be related to a grade or a student will generally not
do it.

We do have courses in decision making in the curriculum, don't we?

Third, most students who went straight from high school to college, then to
grad school have NO experience in a workgroup. How could they be expected
to know how to think critically about issues that seem to cry out for
experience? Also, some instructors have had little or no experience other
than teaching. That is a definite drawback to the entire process.

Fourth, the "dumbing down" of students in the US grows apace. Students
cannot be blamed for what has happened to them prior to college and grad
school. "Waking them up" is a massive job! Many refuse to wake up - it has
served them well to do what's required and no more, so why change?

Fifth, "the problem" consists almost entirely of MANAGERS in the workplace,
not theory, or how well prepared students are. As an example, I am a
"worker" in a situation, and my manager does not encourage critical
thinking. The manager gives a clear directive that we are to remain in our
"boxes" and not get out of it. The challenge here is to try to find ways to
"educate" that manager, and that is one gigantic task! So it doesn't matter
that in my MBA program I learned all these neat things; I can't use them!
Students of today should have experience (simulations) of such real life
situations so that they know how to "lead" even from below.

Last, I buy Gary's approach of asking questions rather than presenting
answers. As a consultant, that seems to be the best way to proceed. As a
teacher/instructor/professor, though, what indeed is the best way to
proceed? It's not easy.

Edryce


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Jean-Marc,

Yes, I agree with you. I am not as certain as you are, though, that when students leave academia they really have any idea of what "management" is all about. Those who have been in the workplace for a few years stand the best chance of making sense out of our curricula, as you indicate. What I have observed is, regardless of the training and education people have, when they become "managers" often they get into a power mode, and forget what it was like to be a "worker." I have noticed that phenomenon throughout my working life. Maybe we could do something about that, too!
Edryce

GUILLEMETTE Jean-Marc <GUILLEMETJ@iata.org> wrote:
In her fifth point, Edryce states that the problem is almost entirely with
managers in the workplace and that the challenge is to find ways to educate
them.


I agree that there's a widespread problem with managers but not with the
proposed solution. One thing we need to ask is how many of these "problem"
managers are management graduates? I suspect that while a good percentage of
managers may not have much formal education, another important percentage
are in fact management graduates. If this is so, then why do they still seem
to be the source of blockage rather than progress? Have they changed so much
since graduation? Some undoubtedly have but not all, especially those who
completed degrees after starting up the management ladder (a growing
percentage of the population in management education). Part of the answer
then points back to management education and not emphasizing the right
things. We can't ever hope to change all managers out there. While there's
important work to do at that level, just as important work remains creating
a mind set that will survive the transition from school to work. The current
generation will eventually retire. We need to make sure the next generation
is ready to take over.

Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: November 12, 2003 14:41 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: [MG-ED-DV] Response to "lateral thinking"


I may have missed some of this thread, but I believe I read most of it. I
have some comments to add, and a question.

The question is mainly to Erwin: What is the goal of your questions? I am
not clear on what we would be trying to accomplish as we grapple with those
issues.

In response to the many posts lately, I offer my own point of view.

First, management curricula seem to be based on an assumption that all
students will become managers. This seems to be an especially strong
assumption that MBA students often make. The fact is, they WILL NOT become
managers, certainly not immediately. An important question should be
addressed in the curriculum: what can we do to become "leaders" even when
we have no official "authority"? This issue is not addressed as far as I
can tell. My MBA is now 10 years old, though, so maybe things have changed.

Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree
generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a look at
what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade they want.
Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take a back seat to
the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students to think about things,
then somehow it has to be related to a grade or a student will generally not
do it.

We do have courses in decision making in the curriculum, don't we?

Third, most students who went straight from high school to college, then to
grad school have NO experience in a workgroup. How could they be expected
to know how to think critically about issues that seem to cry out for
experience? Also, some instructors have had little or no experience other
than teaching. That is a definite drawback to the entire process.

Fourth, the "dumbing down" of students in the US grows apace. Students
cannot be blamed for what has happened to them prior to college and grad
school. "Waking them up" is a massive job! Many refuse to wake up - it has
served them well to do what's required and no more, so why change?

Fifth, "the problem" consists almost entirely of MANAGERS in the workplace,
not theory, or how well prepared students are. As an example, I am a
"worker" in a situation, and my manager does not encourage critical
thinking. The manager gives a clear directive that we are to remain in our
"boxes" and not get out of it. The challenge here is to try to find ways to
"educate" that manager, and that is one gigantic task! So it doesn't matter
that in my MBA program I learned all these neat things; I can't use them!
Students of today should have experience (simulations) of such real life
situations so that they know how to "lead" even from below.

Last, I buy Gary's approach of asking questions rather than presenting
answers. As a consultant, that seems to be the best way to proceed. As a
teacher/instructor/professor, though, what indeed is the best way to
proceed? It's not easy.

Edryce


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Hello to all: this is so fascinating- thank you. It's all so
systemic,isn't it. It's about power, what is rewarded, organizational
culture and values, leadership and CEO role modeling. Whew!!! Where do
we start?

Students pick up the signals pretty fast. The power game starts at
university- actually earlier. Power is a reality and part of life. It's
the messages we send about it, how we manage it, do we reward it, and
how much do we play into keeping the abuse of it going? So, what
started out as a discussion by Erwin on decision-making has quickly
unveiled the complexity of all of these things. Something programs,
quick fixes and solutions don't fix. And as a consultant, don't we like
to differentiate ourselves by offering up a fix. Since I have none of
these, my clients journey the painful process of discovery with me.
Likely why I'm not working for one of the big 6 (or is it 3- I've lost
track!)

Deborah Nixon
University of Toronto
704 Windermere Ave
Toronto Ont M6S 3M1
Ph: 416-763-6985
Fax: 416-763-3361



-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Edryce Reynolds
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 1:03 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: Response to "lateral thinking"


Jean-Marc,

Yes, I agree with you. I am not as certain as you are, though, that
when students leave academia they really have any idea of what
"management" is all about. Those who have been in the workplace for a
few years stand the best chance of making sense out of our curricula, as
you indicate. What I have observed is, regardless of the training and
education people have, when they become "managers" often they get into a
power mode, and forget what it was like to be a "worker." I have
noticed that phenomenon throughout my working life. Maybe we could do
something about that, too! Edryce

GUILLEMETTE Jean-Marc <GUILLEMETJ@iata.org> wrote:
In her fifth point, Edryce states that the problem is almost entirely
with managers in the workplace and that the challenge is to find ways to
educate them.


I agree that there's a widespread problem with managers but not with the
proposed solution. One thing we need to ask is how many of these
"problem" managers are management graduates? I suspect that while a good
percentage of managers may not have much formal education, another
important percentage are in fact management graduates. If this is so,
then why do they still seem to be the source of blockage rather than
progress? Have they changed so much since graduation? Some undoubtedly
have but not all, especially those who completed degrees after starting
up the management ladder (a growing percentage of the population in
management education). Part of the answer then points back to management
education and not emphasizing the right things. We can't ever hope to
change all managers out there. While there's important work to do at
that level, just as important work remains creating a mind set that will
survive the transition from school to work. The current generation will
eventually retire. We need to make sure the next generation is ready to
take over.

Jean-Marc


-----Original Message-----
From: Edryce Reynolds [mailto:edryce@yahoo.com]
Sent: November 12, 2003 14:41 PM
To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: [MG-ED-DV] Response to "lateral thinking"


I may have missed some of this thread, but I believe I read most of it.
I have some comments to add, and a question.

The question is mainly to Erwin: What is the goal of your questions? I
am not clear on what we would be trying to accomplish as we grapple with
those issues.

In response to the many posts lately, I offer my own point of view.

First, management curricula seem to be based on an assumption that all
students will become managers. This seems to be an especially strong
assumption that MBA students often make. The fact is, they WILL NOT
become managers, certainly not immediately. An important question should
be addressed in the curriculum: what can we do to become "leaders" even
when we have no official "authority"? This issue is not addressed as far
as I can tell. My MBA is now 10 years old, though, so maybe things have
changed.

Second, someone once said, "What gets rewarded gets done." I agree
generally, and students are no exception. The majority will take a look
at what is required and decide what it takes to make the grade they
want. Learning/thinking/decision making/problem solving/etc. take a back
seat to the grade. If an instructor/professor wants students to think
about things, then somehow it has to be related to a grade or a student
will generally not do it.

We do have courses in decision making in the curriculum, don't we?

Third, most students who went straight from high school to college, then
to grad school have NO experience in a workgroup. How could they be
expected to know how to think critically about issues that seem to cry
out for experience? Also, some instructors have had little or no
experience other than teaching. That is a definite drawback to the
entire process.

Fourth, the "dumbing down" of students in the US grows apace. Students
cannot be blamed for what has happened to them prior to college and grad
school. "Waking them up" is a massive job! Many refuse to wake up - it
has served them well to do what's required and no more, so why change?

Fifth, "the problem" consists almost entirely of MANAGERS in the
workplace, not theory, or how well prepared students are. As an example,
I am a "worker" in a situation, and my manager does not encourage
critical thinking. The manager gives a clear directive that we are to
remain in our "boxes" and not get out of it. The challenge here is to
try to find ways to "educate" that manager, and that is one gigantic
task! So it doesn't matter that in my MBA program I learned all these
neat things; I can't use them! Students of today should have experience
(simulations) of such real life situations so that they know how to
"lead" even from below.

Last, I buy Gary's approach of asking questions rather than presenting
answers. As a consultant, that seems to be the best way to proceed. As a
teacher/instructor/professor, though, what indeed is the best way to
proceed? It's not easy.

Edryce


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