Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  A Confessed Regret (of an autodidact)

    Posted 07-20-2004 23:32
    Not excepting the "present legal climate," age can definitely be an
    issue. I have spent most of my professional life on the edge of
    traditional research academia - offering night classes in my narrow
    expertise to 'night programs,' professing at 'teaching' institutions and
    the near equivalent of U of Phoenix accelerated programs. My employer
    companies sometimes liked technical publications, sometimes did not, but
    never placed publication priority the equal of the technical challenge
    in front of me. thus, I wind up at almost Mr. Nichol's age with many of
    the credentials he lacks (such as a Ph. D.), some credentials that cut
    no ice in academia (such as Am. Soc. for Quality's Quality Auditor,
    Quality Engineer, and SSBB [Six-Sigma Black Belt]), and few enough
    research level publications (mostly from grad school).

    Since academic 'success' is usually more difficult to measure than
    corporate 'success,' we tend to see less objectivity in the judgments
    necessary to permit academic participation. Placing requirements for
    credentials, however flawed as a means of achieving the
    educational/academic objective, provides one means for reducing the
    stress of decision-making. It also ensures that gadflies who "don't fit
    in" will not be around to ask embarrassing questions.

    Questions such as "what will a graduating student be able to accomplish?
    In operational definitions, please." the follow-up question is, "how
    does this class (or any/all required classes) contribute to the
    student's capabilities?"

    Before anyone jumps all over this post, please assume that it is much
    longer - including carefully phrased delinations of how different levels
    of student incoming capability are to be handled, and "accomplish"
    explained in terms of the Bloom Taxonomy. etc., etc. :)

    Quite honestly, I don't suggest that Mr. Nichols undertake a night class
    instructor type job, at such as U. of Phoenix. Their interest is in an
    authority who is willing to follow the instructions in the instructor's
    guide. If the material should happen to contradict his/her experience,
    or be technically inadvisable, tough apples. If the format of the
    material should happen to be cumbersome/difficult for the students to
    grasp, only minor alternations in methodology are expected. Adjunct
    instructors are the lowest of the low in the academic pantheon.
    Enlightened faculty and administrators may appreciate 'outside' input
    under certain conditions. If Mr. Nichols can locate such a group of
    people, more power to him!

    Looking at the picture from the academic side, I'm sorry to say that
    honest business experience, such as Mr. Nichols has in abundance, does
    not necessarily 'fit' or translate well into educational structure and
    educational objectives. Some people are quite good at doing their
    specialty, but lack the insight, or overview ability, to understand not
    only how to do their specialty, but also how the students understand
    that specialty, and that 'doing.' I began to accomplish things with my
    statistics classes when I watched not only what they learned, but how
    they learned it. (Yes, it is true that not all professors understand
    this paragraph, either. But they are professors already :)

    Education is different than any specific specialty in one major way. It
    involves a great deal of interaction between instructor and student.
    You cannot develop "quality" of education/learning the way you develop
    "quality" of an industrial switch, because no switch ever had a hand in
    its own assembly. Many very successful industrialists in my own home
    town don't understand the implications of this statement yet, when they
    assert that "school should be run like a business."

    Enough soap box for one night. Fred is right - the U's are missing out
    when they place 'artificial' barriers to participation by him and those
    like him. Us old war horses don't always understand the true narrowness
    of our own experience. Take your pick.

    Cheers,
    Jay

    Charles Wankel wrote:

    >Fred
    > Having attained high executive in organizations such as the
    >Educational Testing Service, your background as autodidact indeed has NOT
    >hindered your immensely successful career. I can imagine an institution
    >such as the University of Phoenix would jump at the opportunity to get
    >someone with your resume. What is surprising to me is that you find being
    >66 an impediment to get a doctorate. Indeed I am certain that you could
    >whiz through such a program. I recommend getting one from a European school
    >where rather than course work research might be the focus. That is, find an
    >institution where you could study and write on in a scholarly way what
    >interests you. Once you have your doctorate, in the present legal climate, I
    >suspect that your age would not stop you getting interviews. Once you get
    >in an interview situation, I am sure that many institutions would want to
    >snatch you up.
    >In awe of your management know-how and knowledge,
    >Charles Wankel
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >
    >Another job posting for an associate professor made its way into my email
    >in-box a short while ago. For some reason this one triggered more than a
    >cursory scan and a quick trip to the delete key. This time I sat there,
    >regretting my lack of educational credentials. It saddened me for a moment
    >to think that I have learned so much over the years that can never be shared
    >that way. What a waste.
    >
    >I have often maintained the fiction that the lack of a college degree
    >(coupled with spending the first 20 years of my working career in the Navy)
    >has never been a hindrance. But it is indeed a fiction. True enough, I
    >have had a career that many with far better credentials never achieved and
    >that some envy. However, forever unanswered goes the question: "What might
    >I have accomplished had I been armed with those credentials?" I suspect my
    >accomplishments might have been much greater.
    >
    >However, at 66 years of age, I have no intention of remedying the situation.
    >Nor do I have any intention of wallowing in regret. I just thought I'd
    >share a reflection with my better educated colleagues and to let you know I
    >envy you the potential you enjoy and that eludes me. I hope you come to
    >appreciate it as much as I do.
    >
    >Regards,
    >
    >Fred Nickols, CPT
    >Distance Consulting
    >"Assistance at a Distance"
    >nickols@att.net
    >www.nickols.us
    >
    >
    >
    >

    --
    Jay Warner
    Principal Scientist
    Warner Consulting, Inc.
    4444 North Green Bay Road
    Racine, WI 53404-1216
    USA

    Ph: (262) 634-9100
    FAX: (262) 681-1133
    email: quality@a2q.com
    web: http://www.a2q.com

    The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?


  • 2.  A Confessed Regret (of an autodidact)

    Posted 07-21-2004 14:34
    From: Christie Mason [mailto:cmason@managersforum.com]

    This thread has confirmed something I'd hoped I was wrong about and didn't
    want to accept. Educational institutions don't exist to teach, nor to
    learn. They exist to exist.

    Despite decades of studies about how people learn, despite decades of
    teaching teachers and training trainers how people learn, there's been very
    little application of that knowledge in both the educational and corporate
    arenas.

    Jay's comment below pretty much says it all. Someone can be an expert in
    their field, either by investigation or experience, but if he/she won't take
    the time to listen and pay attention to how others learn then that person is
    not a teacher no matter what credentials they may hold.

    If you think about it, Jay's comment also summarizes what good managers do
    well.

    Christie Mason

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU]On Behalf Of Jay Warner

    I began to accomplish things with my statistics classes when I watched not
    only what they learned, but how they learned it.


  • 3.  A Confessed Regret (of an autodidact)

    Posted 07-22-2004 12:23
    Well, yes. In our local K-12 schools, the superintendent is working
    hard to change the mode from "doing it for our convenience" to "doing it
    to educate the young." A lot of folks don't like to hear that said out
    loud. However, most institutions have to balance the desires of their
    customers (recipients), their employees, their owners, and maybe other
    'stakeholders' such as the EPA. that said institutions don't always
    'get it right,' and that there is friction at the interfaces should not
    surprise anyone.

    I should add, that the epiphany leading to my consciously watching the
    students did not come from any course I took.

    Cheers,
    Jay

    Christie Mason wrote:

    >From: Christie Mason [mailto:cmason@managersforum.com]
    >
    >This thread has confirmed something I'd hoped I was wrong about and didn't
    >want to accept. Educational institutions don't exist to teach, nor to
    >learn. They exist to exist.
    >
    >Despite decades of studies about how people learn, despite decades of
    >teaching teachers and training trainers how people learn, there's been very
    >little application of that knowledge in both the educational and corporate
    >arenas.
    >
    >Jay's comment below pretty much says it all. Someone can be an expert in
    >their field, either by investigation or experience, but if he/she won't take
    >the time to listen and pay attention to how others learn then that person is
    >not a teacher no matter what credentials they may hold.
    >
    >If you think about it, Jay's comment also summarizes what good managers do
    >well.
    >
    >Christie Mason
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    >[mailto:MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU]On Behalf Of Jay Warner
    >
    > I began to accomplish things with my statistics classes when I watched not
    >only what they learned, but how they learned it.
    >
    >
    >
    >

    --
    Jay Warner
    Principal Scientist
    Warner Consulting, Inc.
    4444 North Green Bay Road
    Racine, WI 53404-1216
    USA

    Ph: (262) 634-9100
    FAX: (262) 681-1133
    email: quality@a2q.com
    web: http://www.a2q.com

    The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?