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The state of management and leadership education

  • 1.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 12-31-2005 16:56
    Please forgive cross-posting

    Many members of this list are undoubtedly aware of the paper from which the quote below has been selected.  It raises some interesting issues that may be worthwhile to discuss.

    Bennis and O'Toole (Bennis, 2005, p98) summarized the situation clearly:
       "The scientific model, as we call it, is predicated on the faulty assumption that business is an academic discipline, like chemistry or geology.  In fact, business is a profession, akin to medicine and the law - and business schools are professional schools - or should be.... The distinction between a profession and an academic discipline is crucial.  In our view, no curricular reform will work until the scientific model is replaced by a more appropriate model rooted in the special requirements of a profession."

    What interests me most are practical and realistic options for bridging the disconnect between what most curricula help students to learn and what will be most useful for them so they will be effective in their managerial and leadership roles in all types of public and private organizations.  Personally I think one major key is to help them acquire knowledge and skills for making quality decisions, not only with respect to the technical aspects of the situation, but also with respect to the impact on stakeholders, especially people.  In short, I believe it would be useful for courses and programs to provide a universally applicable decision-making structure - similar to the formulae or practice guidelines that learners receive in professional courses of all kinds - from engineering to human resource management.

    Any thoughts?   If anyone is interested in my personal response to this challenge, please ask on-line or off,

    Have a healthy and happy 2006.

    Erwin (Rausch)


  • 2.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-04-2006 05:08
    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.
     
    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.
     
    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.
     
    Kim Warren - London Business School
     
     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Erwin Rausch [mailto:DidacticRa@AOL.COM]
    Sent: 31 December 2005 21:56
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: The state of management and leadership education

    Please forgive cross-posting

    Many members of this list are undoubtedly aware of the paper from which the quote below has been selected.  It raises some interesting issues that may be worthwhile to discuss.

    Bennis and O'Toole (Bennis, 2005, p98) summarized the situation clearly:
       "The scientific model, as we call it, is predicated on the faulty assumption that business is an academic discipline, like chemistry or geology.  In fact, business is a profession, akin to medicine and the law - and business schools are professional schools - or should be.... The distinction between a profession and an academic discipline is crucial.  In our view, no curricular reform will work until the scientific model is replaced by a more appropriate model rooted in the special requirements of a profession."

    What interests me most are practical and realistic options for bridging the disconnect between what most curricula help students to learn and what will be most useful for them so they will be effective in their managerial and leadership roles in all types of public and private organizations.  Personally I think one major key is to help them acquire knowledge and skills for making quality decisions, not only with respect to the technical aspects of the situation, but also with respect to the impact on stakeholders, especially people.  In short, I believe it would be useful for courses and programs to provide a universally applicable decision-making structure - similar to the formulae or practice guidelines that learners receive in professional courses of all kinds - from engineering to human resource management.

    Any thoughts?   If anyone is interested in my personal response to this challenge, please ask on-line or off,

    Have a healthy and happy 2006.

    Erwin (Rausch)


  • 3.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-04-2006 07:52

    Perhaps one of the problems with a universal decision making structure is that decision making is so dependant on culture.  If one just considered "who and how to involve in a decision", this could change based on the culture's values concerning power distance, uncertainty avoidance, individualism, fairness, ethics, etc...  Also, the size, structure, processes, systems, etc... have a huge impact on how we can make decisions.  Not to mention change, complexity, expertise, as well as the companies products or services, all of which have some bearing on how much time can be given to a decision.

     

    However, I agree that it is useful for students to be familiar with and practise using well-known decision making models which are appropriate for their country.   Raised in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">United States</st1:country-region>, one of the things that has amazed me over the last twenty years is how incredibly different decision making takes place in <st1:country-region w:st="on">France</st1:country-region>, as compared to the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>.   I believe that regardless of a culture's resistance to employ new processes or decision making procedures, it is useful for students to learn efficient ways of making decisions in geo-centric organizations.  Perhaps globalization will one day define a universal decision making structure for multi-national companies.

     

    Mike Hanson – ESCEM <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Management</st1:placename></st1:place> and Business

     

    De : Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] De la part de Kim Warren
    Envoyé : mercredi 4 janvier 2006 11:08
    À : MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Objet : Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.

     

    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.

     

    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.

     

    Kim Warren - London Business School

     

     

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Erwin Rausch [mailto:DidacticRa@AOL.COM]
    Sent: 31 December 2005 21:56
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: The state of management and leadership education

    Please forgive cross-posting

    Many members of this list are undoubtedly aware of the paper from which the quote below has been selected.  It raises some interesting issues that may be worthwhile to discuss.

    Bennis and O'Toole (Bennis, 2005, p98) summarized the situation clearly:
       "The scientific model, as we call it, is predicated on the faulty assumption that business is an academic discipline, like chemistry or geology.  In fact, business is a profession, akin to medicine and the law - and business schools are professional schools - or should be.... The distinction between a profession and an academic discipline is crucial.  In our view, no curricular reform will work until the scientific model is replaced by a more appropriate model rooted in the special requirements of a profession."

    What interests me most are practical and realistic options for bridging the disconnect between what most curricula help students to learn and what will be most useful for them so they will be effective in their managerial and leadership roles in all types of public and private organizations.  Personally I think one major key is to help them acquire knowledge and skills for making quality decisions, not only with respect to the technical aspects of the situation, but also with respect to the impact on stakeholders, especially people.  In short, I believe it would be useful for courses and programs to provide a universally applicable decision-making structure - similar to the formulae or practice guidelines that learners receive in professional courses of all kinds - from engineering to human resource management.

    Any thoughts?   If anyone is interested in my personal response to this challenge, please ask on-line or off,

    Have a healthy and happy 2006.

    Erwin (Rausch)



  • 4.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-04-2006 11:32

    Hello, I am new to this list serve and am enjoying the discourse.  I am writing a dissertation at <st1:city><st1:place>Columbia</st1:place></st1:city> on the topic  How do Suburban High School Principals Use Intuition in Making Human Resource Decisions?  A Critical Incident Perspective.  Does anyone have any opinion or research recommendations on using intuition in decision-making? 

     

    Thanks,

     

    Alan B. Chipetine

    Assistant Principal

    Syosset High School

    70 southwoods Road

    Syosset, NY 11791

    (516) 364 - 5675

    Achipetine@syosset.k12.ny.us

     

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Hanson Mike
    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:52 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    Perhaps one of the problems with a universal decision making structure is that decision making is so dependant on culture.  If one just considered "who and how to involve in a decision", this could change based on the culture's values concerning power distance, uncertainty avoidance, individualism, fairness, ethics, etc...  Also, the size, structure, processes, systems, etc... have a huge impact on how we can make decisions.  Not to mention change, complexity, expertise, as well as the companies products or services, all of which have some bearing on how much time can be given to a decision.

     

    However, I agree that it is useful for students to be familiar with and practise using well-known decision making models which are appropriate for their country.   Raised in the United States, one of the things that has amazed me over the last twenty years is how incredibly different decision making takes place in France, as compared to the US.   I believe that regardless of a culture's resistance to employ new processes or decision making procedures, it is useful for students to learn efficient ways of making decisions in geo-centric organizations.  Perhaps globalization will one day define a universal decision making structure for multi-national companies.

     

    Mike Hanson – ESCEM School of Management and Business

     

    De : Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] De la part de Kim Warren
    Envoyé : mercredi 4 janvier 2006 11:08
    À : MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Objet : Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.

     

    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.

     

    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.

     

    Kim Warren - London Business School

     

     

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Erwin Rausch [mailto:DidacticRa@AOL.COM]
    Sent: 31 December 2005 21:56
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: The state of management and leadership education

    Please forgive cross-posting

    Many members of this list are undoubtedly aware of the paper from which the quote below has been selected.  It raises some interesting issues that may be worthwhile to discuss.

    Bennis and O'Toole (Bennis, 2005, p98) summarized the situation clearly:
       "The scientific model, as we call it, is predicated on the faulty assumption that business is an academic discipline, like chemistry or geology.  In fact, business is a profession, akin to medicine and the law - and business schools are professional schools - or should be.... The distinction between a profession and an academic discipline is crucial.  In our view, no curricular reform will work until the scientific model is replaced by a more appropriate model rooted in the special requirements of a profession."

    What interests me most are practical and realistic options for bridging the disconnect between what most curricula help students to learn and what will be most useful for them so they will be effective in their managerial and leadership roles in all types of public and private organizations.  Personally I think one major key is to help them acquire knowledge and skills for making quality decisions, not only with respect to the technical aspects of the situation, but also with respect to the impact on stakeholders, especially people.  In short, I believe it would be useful for courses and programs to provide a universally applicable decision-making structure - similar to the formulae or practice guidelines that learners receive in professional courses of all kinds - from engineering to human resource management.

    Any thoughts?   If anyone is interested in my personal response to this challenge, please ask on-line or off,

    Have a healthy and happy 2006.

    Erwin (Rausch)



  • 5.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-04-2006 11:47
    Colleagues,
     
    Kim again opens the issue of rigor in leadership and management.  She mentions principles, yet doesn't really expand.  Erwin has a good point about the effectiveness of business-school education.  Most of it is tactical "how to".  I'm astonished to see powerful business schools with just one course in strategy.
     
    My experience is that principles are always the foundation of L&M.  Many times in business, principles are tacit.  When stated, they are often not clarified.  When clarified, they may not be backed up by sufficient processes.  On the other hand, great processes can flounder if not directed by principle.
     
    My next Colorado Innovation Newsletter will present the principles I've grown over a 15 year period.  (See the list below.)  Though not designed for that purpose, they do correspond fairly well with the Baldridge National Quality Program's criteria.  For all of its successes, Baldrige would really benefit from a suite of principles.
     
    I'd love to see a dialog about principles.  What they are in general.  What specific ones you use and why.  How to instill principles in organizations.  How to use principles in education, then in leading and managing businesses.  How to implement principles with processes.
     
    Best,
     
    Gary
     

    The Principle of Value

    Consciously structure, lead, and manage
    to consistently increase the win-win value
    of relationships with customers and other stakeholders.

    The Principle of Focus

    Make conscious, informed, proactive choices about
    who we want to be, where we want to go,
    how we intend to get there, and
    how we intend to behave.

    Principal of Strategy

    View every action as a strategy to achieve goals,
    then carefully choose the best strategies.

    Principle of Need Satisfaction

    Conceive, develop, and deliver value to customers
    better, faster, and more profitably
    than any competition.

    Principle of Perception Management

    Manage everything done and said
    to consistently reinforce
    desired marketplace perceptions.

    Principle of Leveraged Strengths

    Discover and leverage
    the full nature and power of
    every key entity and process in our business.

    Principle of Change

    The only way to stay in control of our business
    is to proactively lead into change.

     

    To receive the newsletter, e-mail GaryL@Market-Engineering.com with "newsletter" in the subject line.
     
    --

    Change agent skills
    are as important to individual success
    as are professional discipline skills.

     

    Gary Lundquist
    303-840-9929  GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

    President - Market Engineering International
                www.Market-Engineering.com  
    Editor - The Colorado Innovation Newsletter
                www.ColoradoInnovation.blogs.com

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:08 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.
     
    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.
     
    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.
     
    Kim Warren - London Business School
     
     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Erwin Rausch [mailto:DidacticRa@AOL.COM]
    Sent: 31 December 2005 21:56
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: The state of management and leadership education

    Please forgive cross-posting

    Many members of this list are undoubtedly aware of the paper from which the quote below has been selected.  It raises some interesting issues that may be worthwhile to discuss.

    Bennis and O'Toole (Bennis, 2005, p98) summarized the situation clearly:
       "The scientific model, as we call it, is predicated on the faulty assumption that business is an academic discipline, like chemistry or geology.  In fact, business is a profession, akin to medicine and the law - and business schools are professional schools - or should be.... The distinction between a profession and an academic discipline is crucial.  In our view, no curricular reform will work until the scientific model is replaced by a more appropriate model rooted in the special requirements of a profession."

    What interests me most are practical and realistic options for bridging the disconnect between what most curricula help students to learn and what will be most useful for them so they will be effective in their managerial and leadership roles in all types of public and private organizations.  Personally I think one major key is to help them acquire knowledge and skills for making quality decisions, not only with respect to the technical aspects of the situation, but also with respect to the impact on stakeholders, especially people.  In short, I believe it would be useful for courses and programs to provide a universally applicable decision-making structure - similar to the formulae or practice guidelines that learners receive in professional courses of all kinds - from engineering to human resource management.

    Any thoughts?   If anyone is interested in my personal response to this challenge, please ask on-line or off,

    Have a healthy and happy 2006.

    Erwin (Rausch)


  • 6.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-04-2006 15:43
    Someone sent me this web site and I thought that it might be useful or
    at least interesting to those who are trying to improve the state of
    management and leadership education
    http://www.measurementexperts.org/learn/hof/hof_main.asp?detail=9

    I know that I have cited some of The Measurement Hall of Fame just a
    few times : )




    Frank Shipper, Ph.D.
    Professor of Management
    Perdue School of Business
    Salisbury University
    Salisbury, MD 21801
    Phone: (410) 543-6333
    FAX: (410) 546-6208
    E-mail: fmshipper@salisbury.edu
    Home Page: http://faculty.salisbury.edu/~fmshipper/home/


  • 7.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-04-2006 16:03
    MIKE: Can you describe the decision making process in France and how it differs from US?
    Thanks,
    Bonnie Garson PhD
    Associate Professor
    McCamish School of Management
    Reinhardt College
    Waleska, GA 30183
    >
    > From: Hanson Mike <mhanson@ESCEM.FR>
    > Date: 2006/01/04 Wed AM 07:51:58 EST
    > To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    > Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education
    >
    > Perhaps one of the problems with a universal decision making structure is that decision making is so dependant on culture. If one just considered "who and how to involve in a decision", this could change based on the culture's values concerning power distance, uncertainty avoidance, individualism, fairness, ethics, etc... Also, the size, structure, processes, systems, etc... have a huge impact on how we can make decisions. Not to mention change, complexity, expertise, as well as the companies products or services, all of which have some bearing on how much time can be given to a decision.
    >
    >
    >
    > However, I agree that it is useful for students to be familiar with and practise using well-known decision making models which are appropriate for their country. Raised in the United States, one of the things that has amazed me over the last twenty years is how incredibly different decision making takes place in France, as compared to the US. I believe that regardless of a culture's resistance to employ new processes or decision making procedures, it is useful for students to learn efficient ways of making decisions in geo-centric organizations. Perhaps globalization will one day define a universal decision making structure for multi-national companies.
    >
    >
    >
    > Mike Hanson - ESCEM School of Management and Business
    >
    >
    >
    > ________________________________
    >
    > De : Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] De la part de Kim Warren
    > Envoy� : mercredi 4 janvier 2006 11:08
    > � : MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    > Objet : Re: The state of management and leadership education
    >
    >
    >
    > Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.
    >
    >
    >
    > It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.
    >
    >
    >
    > Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.
    >
    >
    >
    > Kim Warren - London Business School
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Erwin Rausch [mailto:DidacticRa@AOL.COM]
    > Sent: 31 December 2005 21:56
    > To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    > Subject: The state of management and leadership education
    >
    > Please forgive cross-posting
    >
    > Many members of this list are undoubtedly aware of the paper from which the quote below has been selected. It raises some interesting issues that may be worthwhile to discuss.
    >
    > Bennis and O'Toole (Bennis, 2005, p98) summarized the situation clearly:
    > "The scientific model, as we call it, is predicated on the faulty assumption that business is an academic discipline, like chemistry or geology. In fact, business is a profession, akin to medicine and the law - and business schools are professional schools - or should be.... The distinction between a profession and an academic discipline is crucial. In our view, no curricular reform will work until the scientific model is replaced by a more appropriate model rooted in the special requirements of a profession."
    >
    > What interests me most are practical and realistic options for bridging the disconnect between what most curricula help students to learn and what will be most useful for them so they will be effective in their managerial and leadership roles in all types of public and private organizations. Personally I think one major key is to help them acquire knowledge and skills for making quality decisions, not only with respect to the technical aspects of the situation, but also with respect to the impact on stakeholders, especially people. In short, I believe it would be useful for courses and programs to provide a universally applicable decision-making structure - similar to the formulae or practice guidelines that learners receive in professional courses of all kinds - from engineering to human resource management.
    >
    > Any thoughts? If anyone is interested in my personal response to this challenge, please ask on-line or off,
    >
    > Have a healthy and happy 2006.
    >
    > Erwin (Rausch)
    >
    >
    >


  • 8.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-05-2006 11:02
    I usually keep watching in awe when academics in management have a scholarly discussion on so many subjects in this list. Not being an academic but only a practitioner (for the past 40+ years), I hesitate to offer my opinion on what is going on but this time I decided to have a go.
     
    I am rather surprised that one could expect management decision making could be compared to that in law or medicine where logic and deduction seem to be the basis of decision. To my mind, while models and theories could sharpen a manager's mind, the decision making in business is based on many many imponderables where previous experience stored in the back of the mind, gut feel and certain amount of luck play a large part. I would liken this to a soccer player in the field having to decide how to dribble, pass, dodge, head or score a goal on the field, all of which has to do much with reflex action based on years of practice - irrespective of the repeated urgings of a coach on the right way to tackle situations.
     
    In the management field, one does not have always the luxury of analysis.
     
    For what this is worth
     
    R.Ramamurthy
    Bangalore
    India
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Kim Warren
    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:37 PM
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.
     
    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.
     
    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.
     
    Kim Warren - London Business School
     
     


  • 9.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-05-2006 16:19

    Ramamurthy,

     

    It is interesting that you have used law and medicine as a comparison. I was recently having a discussion with someone who runs a medical school. Her big concern in medical education was creating the right kind of learning experiences for doctors to develop clinical judgment. Her point was that while there is a body of theory and knowledge which aids diagnosis, good clinicians develop considerable tacit and hard to articulate capabilities which can only developed by exposure to real patients. In this sense, I think there quite a parallel with management. In law too (at least my lawyer colleagues tell me, there is considerable judgment and tacit knowledge involved in making legal arguments).

     

    I suspect that in most professional fields there is an important body of formal knowledge and theory, but it is useless without the practice skill and understanding.

     

    Best regards

     

    Mark

     

    Prof. Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Open University

     

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of R Ramamurthy
    Sent: 05 January 2006 16:02
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    I usually keep watching in awe when academics in management have a scholarly discussion on so many subjects in this list. Not being an academic but only a practitioner (for the past 40+ years), I hesitate to offer my opinion on what is going on but this time I decided to have a go.

     

    I am rather surprised that one could expect management decision making could be compared to that in law or medicine where logic and deduction seem to be the basis of decision. To my mind, while models and theories could sharpen a manager's mind, the decision making in business is based on many many imponderables where previous experience stored in the back of the mind, gut feel and certain amount of luck play a large part. I would liken this to a soccer player in the field having to decide how to dribble, pass, dodge, head or score a goal on the field, all of which has to do much with reflex action based on years of practice - irrespective of the repeated urgings of a coach on the right way to tackle situations.

     

    In the management field, one does not have always the luxury of analysis.

     

    For what this is worth

     

    R.Ramamurthy

    <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bangalore</st1:place></st1:city>

    <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Kim Warren

    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:37 PM

    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.

     

    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.

     

    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.

     

    Kim Warren - <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">London</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place>

     

     



  • 10.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-05-2006 17:51
    Colleagues,
     
    Mark Fenton-O'Creevey notes:
    "In most professional fields there is an important body of formal knowledge and theory, but it is useless without the practice skill and understanding."
     
    Perhaps "useless" is going too far.  On the other hand, Mark is talking about the integration of expertise and experience.  Experience dramatically increases the value and impact of expertise.  In cognitive terms, experience develops conditioned responses that expertise alone cannot even comprehend.  We might say that words like "intuition" and "good judgment" suggest learning (conditioning) developed by experience.
     
    That suggests a weakness of classroom education and training.  Those transfer knowledge, but not experience.  Homework begins to develop experience, yet we may move on to new topics of expertise so fast that experience lags or never achieves the effective neural pathways we would call judgment or wisdom.
     
    Real life as a lawyer, doctor, or business manager is constant homework.  Neural paths are developed and reinforced every day.  Still, it takes a certain range of experience to create an effective diagnostician and decision maker in any discipline.
     
    At least in Western civilization, we truly admire abilities to respond correctly to novel situations.  In those cases, no directly reinforced neural paths will serve.  In those cases, we rely on the network of paths to synthesize a new response to a new problem or opportunity.  Such abilities would seem to rely heavily on the conditioned learning we call experience.
     
    Best to all,
     
    Gary
     
     

    --

    Change agent skills
    are as important to individual success
    as are professional discipline skills.

     

    Gary Lundquist
    303-840-9929  GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

    President - Market Engineering International
                www.Market-Engineering.com  
    Editor - The Colorado Innovation Newsletter
                www.ColoradoInnovation.blogs.com

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 2:19 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

    Ramamurthy,

     

    It is interesting that you have used law and medicine as a comparison. I was recently having a discussion with someone who runs a medical school. Her big concern in medical education was creating the right kind of learning experiences for doctors to develop clinical judgment. Her point was that while there is a body of theory and knowledge which aids diagnosis, good clinicians develop considerable tacit and hard to articulate capabilities which can only developed by exposure to real patients. In this sense, I think there quite a parallel with management. In law too (at least my lawyer colleagues tell me, there is considerable judgment and tacit knowledge involved in making legal arguments).

     

    I suspect that in most professional fields there is an important body of formal knowledge and theory, but it is useless without the practice skill and understanding.

     

    Best regards

     

    Mark

     

    Prof. Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Open University

     

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of R Ramamurthy
    Sent: 05 January 2006 16:02
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    I usually keep watching in awe when academics in management have a scholarly discussion on so many subjects in this list. Not being an academic but only a practitioner (for the past 40+ years), I hesitate to offer my opinion on what is going on but this time I decided to have a go.

     

    I am rather surprised that one could expect management decision making could be compared to that in law or medicine where logic and deduction seem to be the basis of decision. To my mind, while models and theories could sharpen a manager's mind, the decision making in business is based on many many imponderables where previous experience stored in the back of the mind, gut feel and certain amount of luck play a large part. I would liken this to a soccer player in the field having to decide how to dribble, pass, dodge, head or score a goal on the field, all of which has to do much with reflex action based on years of practice - irrespective of the repeated urgings of a coach on the right way to tackle situations.

     

    In the management field, one does not have always the luxury of analysis.

     

    For what this is worth

     

    R.Ramamurthy

    <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bangalore</st1:place></st1:city>

    <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Kim Warren

    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:37 PM

    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.

     

    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.

     

    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.

     

    Kim Warren - <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">London</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place>

     

     



  • 11.  The state of management and leadership education

    Posted 01-06-2006 05:34
    Gary,
     
    I think I agree with much of what you say, although I think we are using the term expertise in rather different ways. Your use of the term seems to equate expertise with mastery of theory and a body of knowledge. My definition is perhaps more akin to 'acheived mastery in a practice setting'.
     
    I think you make an important point about integration, but I think this is rather more than just experience. I think that expertise arises out of certain kinds of active and deliberative engagement with experience.
     
    Your use of terms like conditioning and reinforcement suggest a behavioural psychology approach to learning which I would suggest is a less effective way of conceptualising learning than some of the more recent cognitive and social approaches.
     
    I think where I am going with this is to say that I agree completely with your emphasis on the importance of the integration of formal learning and experience/informal learning. However, I want to suggest that the processes by which that integration occurs are rather more than conditionaing and reinforcement.
     
    best regards
     
    Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Lundquist
    Sent: 05 January 2006 22:51
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

    Colleagues,
     
    Mark Fenton-O'Creevey notes:
    "In most professional fields there is an important body of formal knowledge and theory, but it is useless without the practice skill and understanding."
     
    Perhaps "useless" is going too far.  On the other hand, Mark is talking about the integration of expertise and experience.  Experience dramatically increases the value and impact of expertise.  In cognitive terms, experience develops conditioned responses that expertise alone cannot even comprehend.  We might say that words like "intuition" and "good judgment" suggest learning (conditioning) developed by experience.
     
    That suggests a weakness of classroom education and training.  Those transfer knowledge, but not experience.  Homework begins to develop experience, yet we may move on to new topics of expertise so fast that experience lags or never achieves the effective neural pathways we would call judgment or wisdom.
     
    Real life as a lawyer, doctor, or business manager is constant homework.  Neural paths are developed and reinforced every day.  Still, it takes a certain range of experience to create an effective diagnostician and decision maker in any discipline.
     
    At least in Western civilization, we truly admire abilities to respond correctly to novel situations.  In those cases, no directly reinforced neural paths will serve.  In those cases, we rely on the network of paths to synthesize a new response to a new problem or opportunity.  Such abilities would seem to rely heavily on the conditioned learning we call experience.
     
    Best to all,
     
    Gary
     
     

    --

    Change agent skills
    are as important to individual success
    as are professional discipline skills.

     

    Gary Lundquist
    303-840-9929  GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

    President - Market Engineering International
                www.Market-Engineering.com  
    Editor - The Colorado Innovation Newsletter
                www.ColoradoInnovation.blogs.com

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 2:19 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

    Ramamurthy,

     

    It is interesting that you have used law and medicine as a comparison. I was recently having a discussion with someone who runs a medical school. Her big concern in medical education was creating the right kind of learning experiences for doctors to develop clinical judgment. Her point was that while there is a body of theory and knowledge which aids diagnosis, good clinicians develop considerable tacit and hard to articulate capabilities which can only developed by exposure to real patients. In this sense, I think there quite a parallel with management. In law too (at least my lawyer colleagues tell me, there is considerable judgment and tacit knowledge involved in making legal arguments).

     

    I suspect that in most professional fields there is an important body of formal knowledge and theory, but it is useless without the practice skill and understanding.

     

    Best regards

     

    Mark

     

    Prof. Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Open University

     

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of R Ramamurthy
    Sent: 05 January 2006 16:02
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    I usually keep watching in awe when academics in management have a scholarly discussion on so many subjects in this list. Not being an academic but only a practitioner (for the past 40+ years), I hesitate to offer my opinion on what is going on but this time I decided to have a go.

     

    I am rather surprised that one could expect management decision making could be compared to that in law or medicine where logic and deduction seem to be the basis of decision. To my mind, while models and theories could sharpen a manager's mind, the decision making in business is based on many many imponderables where previous experience stored in the back of the mind, gut feel and certain amount of luck play a large part. I would liken this to a soccer player in the field having to decide how to dribble, pass, dodge, head or score a goal on the field, all of which has to do much with reflex action based on years of practice - irrespective of the repeated urgings of a coach on the right way to tackle situations.

     

    In the management field, one does not have always the luxury of analysis.

     

    For what this is worth

     

    R.Ramamurthy

    <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bangalore</st1:place></st1:city>

    <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>

    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Kim Warren

    Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:37 PM

    Subject: Re: The state of management and leadership education

     

    Not all professions are built purely on application-based foundations. Professional engineers and medics depend on a sound body of underlying theory to ensure that their work is reliable and safe - and we would be pretty annoyed if we discovered this was not the case.

     

    It would indeed be useful for courses to provide a rigorous decision-making structure, but those decisions will only be good if made on a sound understanding of 'what causes what, and why' - i.e. theory. If anything, management practice is so unreliable precisely *because* it relies on custom-and-practice, rather than reliable principles. The Jan05 edition of Harvard Business Review, especially the Pfeffer and Sutton article on 'Evidence-Based Management' make a good case for establishing a reliable theory-base, as do Christensen and Raynor in "Why hard-nosed executives should care about management theory", HBR Sept 03.

     

    Unfortunately, much 'theory' in management - especially in the Strategy field - relies on little more than statistical coincidences or qualitative interpretation, rather than a solid structure of demonstrable and repeatable causality, which is perhaps why the recipes that emerge from it are so little used, or useful, to management.

     

    Kim Warren - <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">London</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place>