Discussion: View Thread

I have to admit that at my first read of your informal poll I was struck by
the irony of students of that particular topic being perceived as impolite
in their communication style.

I'm wondering if you developed any informal perceptions on why these
professors of that topic reported this problems. Was it the large class
size? Did those professors tend to expect more formal communication styles
than professors of other topics? Type of students attracted to study that
particular topic?

Curious,
Christie Mason

-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU]On Behalf Of Krista MILION
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:33 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors


Hello all,
I'm very happy to have read this letter because this year, new to my
school, I carried out my own informal poll enquiring whether other
professors also receive impolite emails. The problem mainly occurred for
a big (impersonal) class of 259 students in Organisational Behaviour and
Human Resource Management. ..

Best regards,

Krista Finstad-Milion
Associate Professor
Management of Organisations and Human Resources Department
ICN School of Management

ESIDEC
Technop�le de Metz
3 place Edouard Branly
57070 Metz FRANCE

Hello Christie,

Maybe I wasn't clear - I was the professor who carried out this in-class
lesson/lab experiment - and yes I probably was particularly motivated to
respond to the issue because when you lecture on organisational
behaviour and HRM you obviously are sensitive to individual
organisational members' behaviour (more so than a Finance Professor for
example) and because you understand how behaviour can be modified if
addressed intelligently. By the way, to answer one of your questions,
the course in question is mandatory for all of our 2nd year business
students so obviously we have students who are quite indifferent to
"behaviour" be it their own, their neighbour's or the organisation which
will deliver them a business degree!

In my smaller classes I sometimes encounter the same lax email etiquette
- and probably are a little more tolerant with it because I have already
met/discussed the students individually and I know who they are - even
though now I remind them (to help them professionally) that using
appropriate etiquette is vital to making a good impression on others.

Some of the students' laziness - ignorance - indifference - or whatever
it may be labelled might be due to the fact that as I'm Canadian of
origin I appear more informal than some French Professors in my rapport
with the students- collectively and individually. I do find, on the
whole, international students more courteous - but then again they often
are a cut above other students who don't go abroad as they have accepted
an extra challenge.

Nevertheless, after conversing with other (French) Professors I found
they also were struck by the same lack of etiquette in email
communication and they do gripe about it... but no one, as far as I
know, has taken the effort to confront the students with it. I, like
you, also wonder whether female professors react differently than male
professors, etc.

This leads me to 2 points:
1) Our department is quite sensitive about student behaviour which
increasingly seems to reflect the "mals" of contemporary society and we
are very interested in learning about how other business schools
successfully address student behavioural problems which are in
contradiction with management competencies we try to develop(ex.
effective communication). Do professors implement personal strategies in
your schools or are there organisational-wide policies which bring about
positive results?

2) Judging from our French students overseas experiences a number of
in-class behavioural norms are culture-bound. French students are
shocked that American students dare to arrive 10 minutes before the end
of a class, and also when American students eat or drink during class,
sit on a table to discuss with a teacher, sniff or sneeze during class,
do not dress well for presentation exactly, etc. American students are
frustrated by French students incessant talking during class, etc. Is
anyone else on the list interested in pursuing research in this area:
the identification of in-class behavioural norms and problems which
could be culture-bound?

Best regards,


Krista Finstad-Milion
Associate Professor
Management of Organisations and Human Resources Department
ICN School of Management

06.12.89.12.69

ESIDEC
Technopôle de Metz
3 place Edouard Branly
57070 Metz FRANCE


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] De la part de Christie Mason
Envoyé : jeudi 9 mars 2006 10:03
À : MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Objet : Re: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors

I have to admit that at my first read of your informal poll I was struck
by
the irony of students of that particular topic being perceived as
impolite
in their communication style.

I'm wondering if you developed any informal perceptions on why these
professors of that topic reported this problems. Was it the large class
size? Did those professors tend to expect more formal communication
styles
than professors of other topics? Type of students attracted to study
that
particular topic?

Curious,
Christie Mason

-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU]On Behalf Of Krista MILION
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:33 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors


Hello all,
I'm very happy to have read this letter because this year, new to my
school, I carried out my own informal poll enquiring whether other
professors also receive impolite emails. The problem mainly occurred for
a big (impersonal) class of 259 students in Organisational Behaviour and
Human Resource Management. ..

Best regards,

Krista Finstad-Milion
Associate Professor
Management of Organisations and Human Resources Department
ICN School of Management

ESIDEC
Technopôle de Metz
3 place Edouard Branly
57070 Metz FRANCE

I just took a moment and spot reviewed the formal and informal emails that
several of us have exchanged with US based corporate clients, vendors, etc.
over the past year and none of them have a greeting, except from sales
people soliciting business and they're also the only ones that also usually
have a closing. The majority tend to be short, scannable and task oriented
in tone. Ongoing discussions have oldest message on bottom, most recent on
top. None had an emoticon included, although I did see one LOL.

I don't think that's because of the type of email contacts we tend to have
here, we connect with many different functional areas and levels of
medium/large organizations. I suspect it's a reflection of using whatever
communication style seems appropriate to that contact. The real issue is
probably appropriateness, not politeness. What some might perceive to be
polite, others might perceive as inappropriately formal. The exchange of
perceptions that occurs in email, or on the phone, or in person, is
endlessly fascinating.

It's not something I've consciously tracked but there does seem to be a
norming of communication styles as new employees of any age adopt the tone
and communication patterns of their coworkers and organizational culture. I
agree that it's never too soon to start that process and help students
avoiding misperceptions from inappropriate communication styles. Or, maybe
that's just my own bias because I have more history with helping older,
newbie emailers understand that email is not like writing a letter.

Christie Mason

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth G. Brown [mailto:Kenneth@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 7:44 AM
To: Management Education and Development Discussion; Christie Mason
Cc: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: Re: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors

...Perhaps it is dated, but nearly all students
understand that if you are going to type a letter to someone, you should
include a greeting, proper sentences, and a closing. In addition, the tone
should be respectful because it is a formal record of correspondence.
...

Ken

Hi Christie: The emails that you are describing are probably between people who have build a relationship over time. One would expect the communication to become more informal over time....I suspect that such communication is not the norm for newcomers -- interesting question though: how an individuals communication style alters over time.

Vikas Anand
Associate Professor of Management
Sam M. Walton College of Business
University of Arkansas
Fayetteville, AR 72701
Phone: 479-5756232; Fax: 479-575-3241


________________________________

From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of Christie Mason
Sent: Thu 3/9/2006 9:48 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: Re: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors



I just took a moment and spot reviewed the formal and informal emails that
several of us have exchanged with US based corporate clients, vendors, etc.
over the past year and none of them have a greeting, except from sales
people soliciting business and they're also the only ones that also usually
have a closing. The majority tend to be short, scannable and task oriented
in tone. Ongoing discussions have oldest message on bottom, most recent on
top. None had an emoticon included, although I did see one LOL.

I don't think that's because of the type of email contacts we tend to have
here, we connect with many different functional areas and levels of
medium/large organizations. I suspect it's a reflection of using whatever
communication style seems appropriate to that contact. The real issue is
probably appropriateness, not politeness. What some might perceive to be
polite, others might perceive as inappropriately formal. The exchange of
perceptions that occurs in email, or on the phone, or in person, is
endlessly fascinating.

It's not something I've consciously tracked but there does seem to be a
norming of communication styles as new employees of any age adopt the tone
and communication patterns of their coworkers and organizational culture. I
agree that it's never too soon to start that process and help students
avoiding misperceptions from inappropriate communication styles. Or, maybe
that's just my own bias because I have more history with helping older,
newbie emailers understand that email is not like writing a letter.

Christie Mason

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth G. Brown [mailto:Kenneth@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 7:44 AM
To: Management Education and Development Discussion; Christie Mason
Cc: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: Re: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors

...Perhaps it is dated, but nearly all students
understand that if you are going to type a letter to someone, you should
include a greeting, proper sentences, and a closing. In addition, the tone
should be respectful because it is a formal record of correspondence.
...

Ken

Remember that the first year students we are discussing (typically
18-19 yrs. old) have _always_ had the internet or text messaging, and
have spent most of their lives (typically, since about 11)
communicating with each other, not with adults. There is a tendency
in the US for high school students and recent graduates to be
somewhat fearful of talking with 'adults' - i. e., professors, and
this often translates into assertions of entitlement. They simply do
not have much experience dealing in an 'adult-adult' mode with an adult.

How much subservience to a professor is sufficient? This is a
question every student has to work out. Early college students often
don't have much experience on which to make judgments. Why should
students in "Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management"
be much different than students of engineering, or pre-med? [And
yes, I've been told that engineering students are total klutzy nerds
next to the maturity and sophistication of Business Administration
students. 'tain't true.]

For that reason, I think Madam Milion's post and experience is worth
wider distribution than this discussion group.

Once the above issue(s) are settled, then questions of where the
effect shows most may have value. If it shows up in large classes
more, perhaps it is that the student has attached less 'humanness' to
the professor (all freshmen know that all professors are not human;
not real ones, anyway.) What might the instructor do to shorten the
link from student to professor? A lot of large lectures have small
group meetings with a graduate student instructor. Perhaps the prof
could occasionally visit these for an informal discussion of the
course or content. Without (for men) a necktie.

'Education" - what many of us do - is at base a process of building
and changing synapses in other people's heads.
Manufacture of electrical power switches is at base a process of
assembling parts until they control electricity.

The key difference between 'education' and manufacture of power
switches is that no switch ever had a hand in its own construction.
How the instructor/professor 'presents' to and interacts with the
students strongly influences how well and completely the synapses are
changed. 'Impolite' emails to professors are in themselves
ineffective (I hope) to the students' objectives. When will they
learn better ways of communicating with their managers and
supervisors, not to mention customers and suppliers? I think the
best time is now.

Jay

On Mar 9, 2006, at 3:02 AM, Christie Mason wrote:

> I have to admit that at my first read of your informal poll I was
> struck by
> the irony of students of that particular topic being perceived as
> impolite
> in their communication style.
>
> I'm wondering if you developed any informal perceptions on why these
> professors of that topic reported this problems. Was it the large
> class
> size? Did those professors tend to expect more formal communication
> styles
> than professors of other topics? Type of students attracted to
> study that
> particular topic?
>
> Curious,
> Christie Mason

Jay Warner
Principal Scientist
Warner Consulting, Inc.
4444 North Green Bay Road
Racine, WI 53404-1216
USA

Ph: 262.634.9100
Fax: 262.681.1133
email: quality@a2q.com
web: www.a2q.com

The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?

I admit there's a point where the communication style changes as
trust/respect develops, but some of these projects are still in the initial
stages so they're still early in the relationship, more formal. As I've
been involved in this discussion it occurred to me that I know when the
relationship has gone to the informal communication stage because that's
when I see the client sign their emails with just a first name, instead of
first last. When that happens, I do the same.

To me the short definition of what is/isn't appropriate is determined by
what I perceive to be the other person's preferences. For example, this
forum has a greater "formal" tone than any of the tech discussion forums so
I sound different here than when I post there.

Christie Mason

-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU]On Behalf Of Anand, Vikas
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:50 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: Re: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors


Hi Christie: The emails that you are describing are probably between people
who have build a relationship over time. One would expect the communication
to become more informal over time....I suspect that such communication is
not the norm for newcomers -- interesting question though: how an
individuals communication style alters over time.

Vikas Anand
Associate Professor of Management
Sam M. Walton College of Business
University of Arkansas
Fayetteville, AR 72701
Phone: 479-5756232; Fax: 479-575-3241

I've been following this discussion with interest. As I discovered when I first visited the US - I was a visiting scholar at Duke for a year in 1978-9 and have returned to the US many times since - American universities are much more formal than here in New Zealand. Lecturers (our generic term for academics) and students routinely address each other by their given names, mix socially, and send chatty, casually worded emails and text messages to each other, yes, sometimes with abbreviations and emoticons. But I have never received anything like some of the peremptory, demanding messages that have been posted in this discussion. Students who ask for something that might be seen as a favour ask politely (in NZ terms lol) and invariably express thanks. If they feel they've had a special favour they might even bring in some home baked cookies.

Sample (received last week):

"Hey Alastair, thanks for sending me the stuff you handed out in the class I missed [through no fault of her own, single parent with occasional childcare problems], UR a gem! I feel awful asking for this, but can I puhleeeeeze possibly ask another favour? My babysitter will probably still be sick tomorrow, would you mind if I brought Fiona [her 4yo] to class? I'll bring my laptop and she can watch a DVD.

Thanks heaps alastair!

PS, what did U think of the DH episode on Monday?"

Of course I said yes, and brought along a donut and some candy for little Fiona who sat happily watching her DVD and even told me off when I tried to chat to her before class started - "Mum told me not to talk in here!"

Now, maybe this sounds too much like hippiedom (I confess to being 60) but it makes for a really nice environment.

Alaastair Gunn
Department of Philosophy
University of Waikato
Hamilton, New Zealand

________________________________

From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of Jay Warner
Sent: Fri 10/03/2006 06:09
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: Re: RE : Impolite student email to their instructors



Remember that the first year students we are discussing (typically
18-19 yrs. old) have _always_ had the internet or text messaging, and
have spent most of their lives (typically, since about 11)
communicating with each other, not with adults. There is a tendency
in the US for high school students and recent graduates to be
somewhat fearful of talking with 'adults' - i. e., professors, and
this often translates into assertions of entitlement. They simply do
not have much experience dealing in an 'adult-adult' mode with an adult.

How much subservience to a professor is sufficient? This is a
question every student has to work out. Early college students often
don't have much experience on which to make judgments. Why should
students in "Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management"
be much different than students of engineering, or pre-med? [And
yes, I've been told that engineering students are total klutzy nerds
next to the maturity and sophistication of Business Administration
students. 'tain't true.]

For that reason, I think Madam Milion's post and experience is worth
wider distribution than this discussion group.

Once the above issue(s) are settled, then questions of where the
effect shows most may have value. If it shows up in large classes
more, perhaps it is that the student has attached less 'humanness' to
the professor (all freshmen know that all professors are not human;
not real ones, anyway.) What might the instructor do to shorten the
link from student to professor? A lot of large lectures have small
group meetings with a graduate student instructor. Perhaps the prof
could occasionally visit these for an informal discussion of the
course or content. Without (for men) a necktie.

'Education" - what many of us do - is at base a process of building
and changing synapses in other people's heads.
Manufacture of electrical power switches is at base a process of
assembling parts until they control electricity.

The key difference between 'education' and manufacture of power
switches is that no switch ever had a hand in its own construction.
How the instructor/professor 'presents' to and interacts with the
students strongly influences how well and completely the synapses are
changed. 'Impolite' emails to professors are in themselves
ineffective (I hope) to the students' objectives. When will they
learn better ways of communicating with their managers and
supervisors, not to mention customers and suppliers? I think the
best time is now.

Jay

On Mar 9, 2006, at 3:02 AM, Christie Mason wrote:

> I have to admit that at my first read of your informal poll I was
> struck by
> the irony of students of that particular topic being perceived as
> impolite
> in their communication style.
>
> I'm wondering if you developed any informal perceptions on why these
> professors of that topic reported this problems. Was it the large
> class
> size? Did those professors tend to expect more formal communication
> styles
> than professors of other topics? Type of students attracted to
> study that
> particular topic?
>
> Curious,
> Christie Mason

Jay Warner
Principal Scientist
Warner Consulting, Inc.
4444 North Green Bay Road
Racine, WI 53404-1216
USA

Ph: 262.634.9100
Fax: 262.681.1133
email: quality@a2q.com
web: www.a2q.com

The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today?