I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by the
linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't understood
since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when I
missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in 3
days.

If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they be
required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest all
that overhead in tracking their attendance?

If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance may/may
not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who fail
a class even though they have perfect attendance.

I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the benefits of
requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the student,
instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
correlation between attendance and passing tests.

But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those costs
or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify those
benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits occur.

Thank you,
Christie Mason

Vaguely following along, I wanted to jump in here. I agree with Christie. I think that
tests will reflect attendance, so why count attendance? The example I like to give in class:
Suppose you end up with a 69 average on a 10-point scale (a D), but have perfect attendance.
Most teachers would use their attendance policy to "bump you up" to a C. But there's another way
to look at that. If you have perfect attendance and the best you can do is a 69, then of
course you deserve a D! In fact, I might be inclined to "bump you down" to an F, because
anyone with perfect attendance should be making an A or B.

I don't actually practice this (or necessarily believe it); but it shows that there is more than
one way to look at perfect attendance.

Tom Timmerman

-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU]On Behalf Of Christie Mason
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 10:46 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: The importance of attendance.


I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by the
linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't understood
since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when I
missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in 3
days.

If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they be
required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest all
that overhead in tracking their attendance?

If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance may/may
not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who fail
a class even though they have perfect attendance.

I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the benefits of
requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the student,
instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
correlation between attendance and passing tests.

But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those costs
or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify those
benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits occur.

Thank you,
Christie Mason

Christie:

In many classes, the instructors create an environment that involves
multiple ways of learning. For example, there are experiential
activities (simulations) that can only be experienced first hand and
cases that require discussion for learnings to emerge -- many times
these discussions can create learnings that go beyond that which is
available in lecture notes or a textbook and that can't be anticipated
by the instructor or students in advance. Certainly, one can learn the
"key points of the simulation" without attending the class, but the
student who misses the class session won't be able to reflect on his/her
behavior during the simulation. Sself-awareness is a predictor of
success in life -- and we all carry assumptions about what we would do
in a particular situation, but we don't really know until we are in the
situation and receive feedback from others on our behavior and how it
affected them. In addition, the students who miss a class miss out on a
shared opportunity to have the same experience as the rest of the class
and thus debrief the same experience with the rest of the group. In
addition, by missing an interactive class, the student who misses the
class is unable to gain from and contribute to discussions that develop
based on the shared experience -- so they are not contributing to the
learning of others.

If a class is based on the assumption that the teacher should lecture
and the students all listen without talking (e.g., they just take
notes), then missing class may not be a big problem. But if a class is
designed to create and share knowledge during the class, not simply
memorize key concepts, then the students who attend the class sessions
are likely to gain -- and give -- more than the student who doesn't
attend. Also, if a class requires team work, then it's often important
that all members of the team attend class so that they have the same
background information and so that they can meet before, after, or
during the class to work on the team project(s).

Best,
Paula



-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Christie Mason
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:46 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: The importance of attendance.


I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by
the linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't
understood since my earliest days in the educational system and was
reinforced when I missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation
and was caught up in 3 days.

If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they
be required to sit in that class? Why should the education system
invest all that overhead in tracking their attendance?

If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance
may/may not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are
people who fail a class even though they have perfect attendance.

I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the
benefits of requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to
students and the educational system is higher than the any benefits
received by the student,
instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
correlation between attendance and passing tests.

But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those
costs or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to
identify those benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where
those benefits occur.

Thank you,
Christie Mason

Christie:

I suspect that you may get many comments on whether to require or grade
on attendance. Here are some from me.

I do not require attendance nor grade on attendance. I do, however,
incorporate into my classroom meetings many experiences that benefit
students -- and I do grade upon participation. While I note that
students may participate in some activities from a distance and
asynchronously, I also note the interactions in the classroom provide
mutual benefits. A student who chooses not to attend a class meeting
can harm other students. Thus, I offer many ways to participate and
link them all with the common thread of helping self and others learn.

-Randy


Christie Mason wrote:

>I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by the
>linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't understood
>since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when I
>missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in 3
>days.
>
>If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they be
>required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest all
>that overhead in tracking their attendance?
>
>If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance may/may
>not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who fail
>a class even though they have perfect attendance.
>
>I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the benefits of
>requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
>educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the student,
>instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
>correlation between attendance and passing tests.
>
>But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those costs
>or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify those
>benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits occur.
>
>Thank you,
>Christie Mason
>
>
>
>

--
Randall G. Sleeth, Ph.D.
School of Business
Virginia Commonwealth University
901 West Franklin Street
Richmond, VA 23284-4000
804-828-1540
rsleeth@vcu.edu
http://www.people.vcu.edu/~rsleeth

Christie brings up an interesting point. If there is no correlation
between class attendance and test performance, why have class at all?
Why not just assign readings and give tests? This would certainly make
this job easier. This model could totally eliminate student excuses
about dying relatives, etc. It would even eliminate any necessity for
any contact with students whatsoever.

However, at least in my classes, I think that what goes on in the
classroom is the important stuff. The interchange that takes place
between me and my students, and even more importantly, the interchange
that takes place among my students is where real learning takes place.
The information in the text or the readings is the starting point for
learning, not the objective of the learning. It is in the classroom
where my students learn how to use the concepts and theories that are
presented in the text material.

I believe that management is an applied science (or is it an applied
art?). Unless we can help, especially undergraduate students make the
connection between the concepts and their lives, they will not receive
full benefit from the experience.

For most of my undergraduates, I do not require attendance, but I do
require that they participate in the discussions. If they are not
there, they cannot participate. So, yes, I believe attendance is
important. There may be things one can learn quite well from readings,
texts, and taking tests. I do not agree that learning to manage
individuals in complex organizations is one of them.

Paul

Paul L. Govekar, D. B. A.
Assistant Professor of Management
Ohio Northern University
College of Business Administration
Phone: 419-772-3124
Fax: 419-772-3125
p-govekar@onu.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Christie Mason
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:46 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: The importance of attendance.

I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by
the
linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't
understood
since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when
I
missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in
3
days.

If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they
be
required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest
all
that overhead in tracking their attendance?

If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance
may/may
not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who
fail
a class even though they have perfect attendance.

I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the
benefits of
requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the
student,
instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
correlation between attendance and passing tests.

But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those
costs
or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify
those
benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits
occur.

Thank you,
Christie Mason

Hi all,

This is my first posting to the group, however I have been following the discussions for a while now.

I give my students a grade for participation and I consider that attendance is usually (unless it is a web-posting forum for discussion) a necessary prerequisite for participation. I believe that learning is a social process and I am very open to the students learning as much or more from each other as they do from me. So I see a class a perishable item, sort of like a seat on an airline flight that once left empty can never be filled for that flight. So if the student does not show up then he or she is detracting from their own learning and those of their fellow students.

So as Woody Allen says, 80% of life is showing up.

Louise Kelly
Alliant International University
San Diego

________________________________

From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of Christie Mason
Sent: Mon 3/13/2006 8:46 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: The importance of attendance.



I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by the
linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't understood
since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when I
missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in 3
days.

If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they be
required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest all
that overhead in tracking their attendance?

If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance may/may
not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who fail
a class even though they have perfect attendance.

I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the benefits of
requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the student,
instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
correlation between attendance and passing tests.

But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those costs
or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify those
benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits occur.

Thank you,
Christie Mason

I do not grade on attendance. However I do grade on participation -
and tell my students that it is impossible to participate in class
without presence. However, presence does not guarantee participation.
And speaking does not guarantee meaningful participation.

On the question of passing the test and not attending the class, a
written exam is a statistical measure of what has been conceptually
learned. It is a sampling. Hopefully, more than conceptual learning
takes place in a classroom. In my classes I try to facilitate dialog,
respect for opposing points of view, curiosity to understand opposing
points of view, skill in dialog that does not escalate into conflict
when I don't agree with an alternative point of view. Class is so much
more than conceptual content that can be assessed by exam.

Carolyn J. Fausnaugh PhD CPA
Assistant Professor of Strategy & New Ventures

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006, Christie Mason wrote:

> I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by the
> linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't understood
> since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when I
> missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in 3
> days.
>
> If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they be
> required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest all
> that overhead in tracking their attendance?
>
> If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance may/may
> not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who fail
> a class even though they have perfect attendance.
>
> I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the benefits of
> requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
> educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the student,
> instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
> correlation between attendance and passing tests.
>
> But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those costs
> or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify those
> benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits occur.
>
> Thank you,
> Christie Mason
>
Christie,

The importance of attendance depends on the learning
objectives of the course. If the nature of the course is
such that a 'smart' student can learn from the book and pass
the exam without attending classes, so be it.

But many business courses also want students to learn how to
participate in a discussion, want them to be able to
verbalize an argument as a way of clarifying the concept in
their own minds, and so on. Different weights are assigned to
these activities. Exams may not be able to capture all the
kinds of learning that takes place in a course.

Class discussions of concepts and cases, responding to
instructor's questions which can start a train of thought, etc.
all require attendance. And in the context of cooperative
learning, a few students regularly missing classes deny others the
benefits of their contribution.

peace,

gopinath

******************************************************************************
C. Gopinath Phone : (617) 305 1934
Suffolk University Fax: (617) 573 8345
Management Department E-mail: c.gopinath@suffolk.edu
Sawyer School of Management http://www.suffolkmgt.org/cgopinath
8 Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108, U.S.A.
******************************************************************************

Dear Christie,
I'm glad you asked. The flaw in your argument is the assumption that all of the
learning in the course is captured by passing the tests. Even if our classes
only involved content knowledge, it would be very difficult to assess
everything learned in a course in one or more tests. Our assumption is that
much learning takes place in hearing the knowledge presented, discussed, and
debated, including hearing examples and perspectives from other students. Some
of this learning will not end up on the test, but hopefully will be retained
and used. Further, our classes usually have learning objectives beyond
acquiring specific knowledge, such as developing communication skills. For
example, in class students may develop skills in explaining and debating their
viewpoints with other students. Without attending class, one does not learn
from this experience. If your viewpoint were true for all classes, we could
just collect tuition, post reading lists, send out tests, grade them and send
out diplomas. Would that be an equivalent educational experience? I hope not. I
hope that somewhere in your educational experience you had classes where you
learned more from attending the class than what appeared on a final exam.
Best regards,
Debbie Ettington



On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:46:06 +0000, Christie Mason wrote:

> I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by the
> linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't understood
> since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when I
> missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in 3
> days.
>
> If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they be
> required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest all
> that overhead in tracking their attendance?
>
> If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance may/may
> not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who fail
> a class even though they have perfect attendance.
>
> I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the benefits of
> requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
> educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the student,
> instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
> correlation between attendance and passing tests.
>
> But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those costs
> or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify those
> benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits occur.
>
> Thank you,
> Christie Mason
>
>

Deborah R. Ettington, Ph.D.
Clinical Professor of Management
Smeal College of Business
449 Business Building
The Pennsylvania State University
University Park, PA 16802
(814) 863-4483
dettington@psu.edu

Certianly some classes are set up to be independent study and since there is no class discussions and class activities it is just read the book and spit back the answer...If someone teaches a class that way when the students are present then you are right, there probably is little added value of class attendence. However when there are in class projects and discussion, exercises, etc. there is a lot of learning that goes on from each other, the group, the overall class discussions... and that can't be replicated by reading the book, getting lecture notes from soemone who was there and then spitting it back.

I teach negotiatoin. A lot of class time is spent doing practice negotiations, learning in the discussions from each other, using what went on as a vehicle to discuss the underlying concepts... There is no way you can get that from reading the book. I would hate to have a surgeon who only got his education from book learning and not guided practice and discussion about pros and cons of different approaches...

Carolyn
U of ID

> I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm
> puzzled by the
> linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't
> understoodsince my earliest days in the educational system and was
> reinforced when I
> missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught
> up in 3
> days.

The linkage of attendance and grades (as a measurable while far from
perfect measure of learning achievement) depends on the class situation
and the course objectives. When I orient my classes around class
discussion, I generally do establish a student attendance policy in my
course syllabus that provides some credit (about 5% of total grade) for
attendance. After some free "cuts", three for a M-W-F semester class, I
deduct points for subsequent absences. After too many unexcused
absences, I follow our school's policy of failing the student.

I explain to students that the rationale for this somewhat arbitrary
policy is that much of the learning in the class comes through
student-teacher interaction and discussion. Each student has a
responsibility to listen, contribute, and interact in class as well as
to read, complete projects, and write outside of class. If a student is
absent, she or he is depriving classmates of her or his contributions.
The learning experience is best not a self-centered one, but an
interactive one. If the student does not attend class, she or he may
still learn and may do very well demonstrating competence in papers and
examinations, but still does not benefit from the social interaction and
does not contribute to the learning of the class as a whole. Attaching
points to attendance seeks to communicate the seriousness of this
epistemological philosophy to the students.

J. Thomas Whetstone
Associate Professor of Business & Philosophy
Montreat College
Montreat, NC 28757
twhetstone@montreat.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: Christie Mason [mailto:cmason@MANAGERSFORUM.COM]
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:46 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: The importance of attendance.

I've been reading several recent threads and must admit I'm puzzled by
the
linkage of attendance and grades. It's something that I haven't
understood
since my earliest days in the educational system and was reinforced when
I
missed 6 weeks of classes due to a health situation and was caught up in
3
days.

If someone can pass the tests w/o sitting in class, then why should they
be
required to sit in that class? Why should the education system invest
all
that overhead in tracking their attendance?

If they're failing the tests and not attending, then non-attendance
may/may
not be a causal factor in that failure. However, there are people who
fail
a class even though they have perfect attendance.

I've thought about this many times and just can't figure out the
benefits of
requiring attendance. It seems to me that the cost to students and the
educational system is higher than the any benefits received by the
student,
instructor or educational organization. I also don't see a significant
correlation between attendance and passing tests.

But, there must be a benefit to someone somewhere that offsets those
costs
or it wouldn't be done. Unfortunately, I've been unable to identify
those
benefits and I'd be very interested in learning where those benefits
occur.

Thank you,
Christie Mason

Dear Colleagues,

Like so many others, I can't resist having a piece of this and I admit
that I haven't read all the threads but I suggest there are both some
'course structure' parameters and some 'chosen pedagogy' ones in play
here.

In the Australian system, a 'class' (in a management/strategy course)
will include both large number (150-800) lectures and small number
(20-25) tutorials. Heads are not counted in lectures but rolls are
(generally) taken in tutorials. If, for example, the primary device in
tutorials is case analysis, students are missing out on the value of
interaction on the subtleties of a particular case, as well as the
chance to learn by asking questions, unless there is an 'on line'
alternative opportunity, hence a need to 'encourage' tutorial
attendance.

However, the real crunch for my students is that I require them to be
members of teams which later 'self assess' on the basis of individual
and collective achievement and participation: they are required to
nominate the grade that they believe the team's effort deserves and also
to assign grades to themselves and fellow team members as individuals,
based on 'contribution'. Since I make use of a computer-moderated
management simulation which must be undertaken in these teams, the
students also have to interact in small groups in their own time to
analyse the results of previous decisions and plan the next one.

Why do I do this? I am trying to 'model' the workplace that they will
enter on graduation, where the individual's contribution is most usually
applied to a group outcome...

Regards to all contributors,

John Thornton
University of South Australia


-----Original Message-----
From: Management Education and Development Discussion
[mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Carolyn Fausnaugh
Sent: Tuesday, 14 March 2006 4:48 AM
To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
Subject: Re: The importance of attendance.

I do not grade on attendance. However I do grade on participation -
and tell my students that it is impossible to participate in class
without presence. However, presence does not guarantee participation.
And speaking does not guarantee meaningful participation.

On the question of passing the test and not attending the class, a
written exam is a statistical measure of what has been conceptually
learned. It is a sampling. Hopefully, more than conceptual learning
takes place in a classroom. In my classes I try to facilitate dialog,
respect for opposing points of view, curiosity to understand opposing
points of view, skill in dialog that does not escalate into conflict
when I don't agree with an alternative point of view. Class is so much
more than conceptual content that can be assessed by exam.

Carolyn J. Fausnaugh PhD CPA
Assistant Professor of Strategy & New Ventures