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ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

  • 1.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 07-31-2006 13:06

    From: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.html

     

     

    Making grades make the grade, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Arizona</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Republic</st1:placetype></st1:place>, Jul. 31, 2006

     

    Most economists will tell you that deflation creates infinitely more risks than inflation.

     

    Except, perhaps, when the subject is business-school grades rather than a nation's monetary health.

     

    The dean of <st1:placename w:st="on">Arizona</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">State</st1:placetype> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype>'s <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">W.P.</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Carey</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">School</st1:placename></st1:place> of Business wants his professors to make good grades mean something. Robert Mittelstaedt Jr. is urging professors in the Master of Business Administration program to give "A's" to no more than 45 percent of each class.

     

    To be precise, what is occurring at ASU's business school is not grade "deflation" at all, but a rebalancing of the meaning of grades, which too often tend to be packed toward the top.

     

    As Mittelstaedt notes, there is too little distinction in grading between students who truly excel and students who merely do well.

     

    Because of rampant grade inflation in most universities, the business community - especially those businesses that seek out the cream of the MBA crop - no longer can discern between the two.

     

    But the worst offense of grade inflation - identified recently by the federal Future of Higher Education Commission as a serious and growing problem - is that it disinclines students from performing truly excellent work.

     

    The trend away from grades that accurately reflect work effort is a reflection of colleges treating students as customers buying an expensive product rather than strictly as students.

     

    Few college deans understand the disincentives of grade inflation more clearly than Mittelstaedt, who wrote recently in The Republic about his reaction to getting a "D" in calculus at <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Tulane</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype></st1:place>. He got the "message" of his bad grade, wrote Mittelstaedt, and retook the course.

     

    "I soon realized that if I had not done that and learned the subject correctly, I would not have finished engineering school," he added.

     

    As the dean also noted, "we do not do young people any favors by 'giving' them good grades."

     

    In the words of the old Smith Barney TV ads, ASU business students - a future investment broker or two among them, no doubt - will soon be doing things the old-fashioned way.

     



  • 2.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 07-31-2006 14:05

    Hi Charlie,

     

    Thanks for sharing the article on ASU.  Setting grading norms is not a new or particularly innovative response to grade inflation. 

     

    The <st1:placename w:st="on">Johnston</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Center</st1:placetype> for Integrative Studies here at the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype> of <st1:placename w:st="on">Redlands</st1:placename></st1:place> has a different solution:  Students and faculty negotiate contracts for courses that include a course description, number of units for the course, and list of major assignments.  Students write self evaluations and turn them in to their instructors.  Faculty members write student evaluations and turn them in to the registrar along with a pass/fail grade.  If the student completes only part of the contract but does so in a satisfactory way, the faculty member can reduce the number of units awarded but still give a passing evaluation. 

     

    Students often co-teach classes that they create in collaboration with each other and their instructors.  They also create their own degree programs using a combination of existing courses and courses they create in their learning community.   This is about as far from the industrial model of education as you can get. 

     

    I have worked with several students who are combining business with other areas of study such as music, or theatre. 

     

    Students from this program are much more likely to start their own organizations because they are used to initiating structure on their own.  It is not for everyone, but it does resolve the grade inflation problem by allowing faculty to be honest in evaluating student performance.  <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Johnston</st1:place></st1:city> transcripts have been accepted at top graduate schools all over the country so the absence of a GPA does not seem to be a barrier to further study.

     

    I would love to see a business school adopt this model because I think it is much more consistent with the way we advocate organizations should be run.  What if we thought of the business school as a learning community instead of a degree factory?

     

    See you in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Atlanta</st1:city></st1:place>!

     

    Jim

     

    James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor

    2006-2007 Past President, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Western</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Academy</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Management

    2006 HR/<st1:place w:st="on">OB</st1:place> Track Chair, North American Case Research Association

     

    University of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Redlands</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Business

    <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address tabindex="0" style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" w:st="on">1200 E. Colton Ave.</st1:address></st1:street>

    <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Redlands</st1:city> <st1:state w:st="on">CA</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">92373-0999</st1:postalcode></st1:place>

     

    Voice:  909-748-8786

    Fax: 909-335-5125

    Email: james_spee@redlands.edu

     

    Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"

    Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."

    Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Wankel
    Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:06 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    From: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.html

     

     

    Making grades make the grade, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Arizona</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Republic</st1:placetype></st1:place>, Jul. 31, 2006

     

    Most economists will tell you that deflation creates infinitely more risks than inflation.

     

    Except, perhaps, when the subject is business-school grades rather than a nation's monetary health.

     

    The dean of <st1:placename w:st="on">Arizona</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">State</st1:placetype> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype>'s <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">W.P.</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Carey</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">School</st1:placename></st1:place> of Business wants his professors to make good grades mean something. Robert Mittelstaedt Jr. is urging professors in the Master of Business Administration program to give "A's" to no more than 45 percent of each class.

     

    To be precise, what is occurring at ASU's business school is not grade "deflation" at all, but a rebalancing of the meaning of grades, which too often tend to be packed toward the top.

     

    As Mittelstaedt notes, there is too little distinction in grading between students who truly excel and students who merely do well.

     

    Because of rampant grade inflation in most universities, the business community - especially those businesses that seek out the cream of the MBA crop - no longer can discern between the two.

     

    But the worst offense of grade inflation - identified recently by the federal Future of Higher Education Commission as a serious and growing problem - is that it disinclines students from performing truly excellent work.

     

    The trend away from grades that accurately reflect work effort is a reflection of colleges treating students as customers buying an expensive product rather than strictly as students.

     

    Few college deans understand the disincentives of grade inflation more clearly than Mittelstaedt, who wrote recently in The Republic about his reaction to getting a "D" in calculus at <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Tulane</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype></st1:place>. He got the "message" of his bad grade, wrote Mittelstaedt, and retook the course.

     

    "I soon realized that if I had not done that and learned the subject correctly, I would not have finished engineering school," he added.

     

    As the dean also noted, "we do not do young people any favors by 'giving' them good grades."

     

    In the words of the old Smith Barney TV ads, ASU business students - a future investment broker or two among them, no doubt - will soon be doing things the old-fashioned way.

     



  • 3.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-02-2006 04:41

    I would be far more supportive of this position if there was any research that demonstrated even a simple correlation between MBA 'grades or marks' and employment success.  We continue to hear that there is little connection between academia and practice.  In addition, there are publication that infer that management education is so disconnected with the practice of management that the more we 'learn' the lower the performance of on line managers.  

     

    Imposing an arbitrary cut score on marks is highly suspect from any science of measurement perspective.  I think that it's true that selling the 'consumer' model to students in pursuit of hard $$$ in exchange for degrees is less than 'ethical'.  So long as potential users of the educational system believe that academic A's guarantee better employees, maybe we're stuck in an endless loop.  

     

    With regard

    Henry

     

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Wankel
    Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:06 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    From: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.html

     

     

    Making grades make the grade, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Arizona</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Republic</st1:placetype></st1:place>, Jul. 31, 2006

     



  • 4.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-02-2006 05:41
    Jim,

    Interesting. From the UK perspective, marks are typically 50-65%, and I know my
    School sets a framework for marks, based around the expected range of the mean
    and standard deviations. The lower level of marks given in the UK sometimes
    raises concerns amongst international students more used to marks in the 70's
    and 80's.

    One comment: could you clarify what you mean by "allowing faculty to be honest
    in evaluating student performance"...? It strikes me that faculty should always
    be honest in this - for the ethics and good of all involved, or have I
    misunderstood something?

    Thanks,

    Peter


    Dr Peter Morgan
    Senior University Teacher
    Faculty Development Co-ordinator
    University of Bradford School of Management

    Tel: +44 1274 234391
    Fax: +44 1274 546866



    Quoting "Spee, Jim" <James_Spee@REDLANDS.EDU>:

    > Hi Charlie,
    >
    >
    >
    > Thanks for sharing the article on ASU. Setting grading norms is not a
    > new or particularly innovative response to grade inflation.
    >
    >
    >
    > The Johnston Center for Integrative Studies here at the University of
    > Redlands has a different solution: Students and faculty negotiate
    > contracts for courses that include a course description, number of units
    > for the course, and list of major assignments. Students write self
    > evaluations and turn them in to their instructors. Faculty members
    > write student evaluations and turn them in to the registrar along with a
    > pass/fail grade. If the student completes only part of the contract but
    > does so in a satisfactory way, the faculty member can reduce the number
    > of units awarded but still give a passing evaluation.
    >
    >
    >
    > Students often co-teach classes that they create in collaboration with
    > each other and their instructors. They also create their own degree
    > programs using a combination of existing courses and courses they create
    > in their learning community. This is about as far from the industrial
    > model of education as you can get.
    >
    >
    >
    > I have worked with several students who are combining business with
    > other areas of study such as music, or theatre.
    >
    >
    >
    > Students from this program are much more likely to start their own
    > organizations because they are used to initiating structure on their
    > own. It is not for everyone, but it does resolve the grade inflation
    > problem by allowing faculty to be honest in evaluating student
    > performance. Johnston transcripts have been accepted at top graduate
    > schools all over the country so the absence of a GPA does not seem to be
    > a barrier to further study.
    >
    >
    >
    > I would love to see a business school adopt this model because I think
    > it is much more consistent with the way we advocate organizations should
    > be run. What if we thought of the business school as a learning
    > community instead of a degree factory?
    >
    >
    >
    > See you in Atlanta!
    >
    >
    >
    > Jim
    >
    >
    >
    > James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor
    >
    > 2006-2007 Past President, Western Academy of Management
    >
    > 2006 HR/OB Track Chair, North American Case Research Association
    >
    >
    >
    > University of Redlands School of Business
    >
    > 1200 E. Colton Ave.
    >
    > Redlands CA 92373-0999
    >
    >
    >
    > Voice: 909-748-8786
    >
    > Fax: 909-335-5125
    >
    > Email: james_spee@redlands.edu
    >
    >
    >
    > Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"
    >
    > Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."
    >
    > Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006
    >
    > ________________________________
    >
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Wankel
    > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:06 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    > Subject: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly
    >
    >
    >
    > From:
    > http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.h
    > tml
    > <http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.
    > html>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Making grades make the grade, Arizona Republic, Jul. 31, 2006
    >
    >
    >
    > Most economists will tell you that deflation creates infinitely more
    > risks than inflation.
    >
    >
    >
    > Except, perhaps, when the subject is business-school grades rather than
    > a nation's monetary health.
    >
    >
    >
    > The dean of Arizona State University's W.P. Carey School of Business
    > wants his professors to make good grades mean something. Robert
    > Mittelstaedt Jr. is urging professors in the Master of Business
    > Administration program to give "A's" to no more than 45 percent of each
    > class.
    >
    >
    >
    > To be precise, what is occurring at ASU's business school is not grade
    > "deflation" at all, but a rebalancing of the meaning of grades, which
    > too often tend to be packed toward the top.
    >
    >
    >
    > As Mittelstaedt notes, there is too little distinction in grading
    > between students who truly excel and students who merely do well.
    >
    >
    >
    > Because of rampant grade inflation in most universities, the business
    > community - especially those businesses that seek out the cream of the
    > MBA crop - no longer can discern between the two.
    >
    >
    >
    > But the worst offense of grade inflation - identified recently by the
    > federal Future of Higher Education Commission as a serious and growing
    > problem - is that it disinclines students from performing truly
    > excellent work.
    >
    >
    >
    > The trend away from grades that accurately reflect work effort is a
    > reflection of colleges treating students as customers buying an
    > expensive product rather than strictly as students.
    >
    >
    >
    > Few college deans understand the disincentives of grade inflation more
    > clearly than Mittelstaedt, who wrote recently in The Republic about his
    > reaction to getting a "D" in calculus at Tulane University. He got the
    > "message" of his bad grade, wrote Mittelstaedt, and retook the course.
    >
    >
    >
    > "I soon realized that if I had not done that and learned the subject
    > correctly, I would not have finished engineering school," he added.
    >
    >
    >
    > As the dean also noted, "we do not do young people any favors by
    > 'giving' them good grades."
    >
    >
    >
    > In the words of the old Smith Barney TV ads, ASU business students - a
    > future investment broker or two among them, no doubt - will soon be
    > doing things the old-fashioned way.
    >
    >
    >
    >


    --
    From: Peter Morgan
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    This mail sent through IMP: http://webmail.brad.ac.uk
    To report misuse from this email address forward the message
    and full headers to misuse@bradford.ac.uk


  • 5.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-02-2006 15:42
    Hi Peter,

    Thanks for your comments on my earlier post. I should have said "be
    gentle" instead of "be honest" about grading. By that I mean, that it
    would not be honest to pass someone who turned in high quality work but
    did not complete all of the assignments. It would not be accurate to
    say that the work is of low quality, which a failing or low grade would
    seem to indicate. It would be more gentle (and perhaps more accurate)
    to give them a passing mark (with a written explanation) for some of the
    units of credit but not all of them, if the instructor and student have
    agreed on a change in the contract designated by the syllabus. This
    assumes that the student did, indeed, complete some of the work.

    The evaluation system used at Johnston Center for integrative studies
    allows this option whereas a system of straight marks or grades does
    not. If the work is both of low quality and low quantity then both
    systems would insist on a failing mark.

    Does that clarify my statement or make things worse? : )

    Jim

    James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor
    2006-2007 Past President, Western Academy of Management
    2006 HR/OB Track Chair, North American Case Research Association

    University of Redlands School of Business
    1200 E. Colton Ave.
    Redlands CA 92373-0999

    Voice: 909-748-8786
    Fax: 909-335-5125
    Email: james_spee@redlands.edu

    Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"
    Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."
    Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006



  • 6.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-03-2006 11:08
    yes, interesting. and from an european union perspective, setting frameworks for marks seems to be against the bologna directive which emphasises learning outcomes rather than relative peformance. or have i gotten that wrong?

    cheers/bengt

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Bengt Kjellén bkj@fek.su.se
    Assistant Professor
    School of Business
    Stockholm University
    ------------------------------------------------------



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of P.G.Morgan@BRADFORD.AC.UK
    Sent: Wed 2006-08-02 11:41
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Jim,

    Interesting. From the UK perspective, marks are typically 50-65%, and I know my
    School sets a framework for marks, based around the expected range of the mean
    and standard deviations. The lower level of marks given in the UK sometimes
    raises concerns amongst international students more used to marks in the 70's
    and 80's.

    One comment: could you clarify what you mean by "allowing faculty to be honest
    in evaluating student performance"...? It strikes me that faculty should always
    be honest in this - for the ethics and good of all involved, or have I
    misunderstood something?

    Thanks,

    Peter


    Dr Peter Morgan
    Senior University Teacher
    Faculty Development Co-ordinator
    University of Bradford School of Management

    Tel: +44 1274 234391
    Fax: +44 1274 546866



    Quoting "Spee, Jim" <James_Spee@REDLANDS.EDU>:

    > Hi Charlie,
    >
    >
    >
    > Thanks for sharing the article on ASU. Setting grading norms is not a
    > new or particularly innovative response to grade inflation.
    >
    >
    >
    > The Johnston Center for Integrative Studies here at the University of
    > Redlands has a different solution: Students and faculty negotiate
    > contracts for courses that include a course description, number of units
    > for the course, and list of major assignments. Students write self
    > evaluations and turn them in to their instructors. Faculty members
    > write student evaluations and turn them in to the registrar along with a
    > pass/fail grade. If the student completes only part of the contract but
    > does so in a satisfactory way, the faculty member can reduce the number
    > of units awarded but still give a passing evaluation.
    >
    >
    >
    > Students often co-teach classes that they create in collaboration with
    > each other and their instructors. They also create their own degree
    > programs using a combination of existing courses and courses they create
    > in their learning community. This is about as far from the industrial
    > model of education as you can get.
    >
    >
    >
    > I have worked with several students who are combining business with
    > other areas of study such as music, or theatre.
    >
    >
    >
    > Students from this program are much more likely to start their own
    > organizations because they are used to initiating structure on their
    > own. It is not for everyone, but it does resolve the grade inflation
    > problem by allowing faculty to be honest in evaluating student
    > performance. Johnston transcripts have been accepted at top graduate
    > schools all over the country so the absence of a GPA does not seem to be
    > a barrier to further study.
    >
    >
    >
    > I would love to see a business school adopt this model because I think
    > it is much more consistent with the way we advocate organizations should
    > be run. What if we thought of the business school as a learning
    > community instead of a degree factory?
    >
    >
    >
    > See you in Atlanta!
    >
    >
    >
    > Jim
    >
    >
    >
    > James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor
    >
    > 2006-2007 Past President, Western Academy of Management
    >
    > 2006 HR/OB Track Chair, North American Case Research Association
    >
    >
    >
    > University of Redlands School of Business
    >
    > 1200 E. Colton Ave.
    >
    > Redlands CA 92373-0999
    >
    >
    >
    > Voice: 909-748-8786
    >
    > Fax: 909-335-5125
    >
    > Email: james_spee@redlands.edu
    >
    >
    >
    > Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"
    >
    > Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."
    >
    > Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006
    >
    > ________________________________
    >
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Wankel
    > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:06 AM
    > To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    > Subject: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly
    >
    >
    >
    > From:
    > http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.h
    > tml
    > <http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.
    > html>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Making grades make the grade, Arizona Republic, Jul. 31, 2006
    >
    >
    >
    > Most economists will tell you that deflation creates infinitely more
    > risks than inflation.
    >
    >
    >
    > Except, perhaps, when the subject is business-school grades rather than
    > a nation's monetary health.
    >
    >
    >
    > The dean of Arizona State University's W.P. Carey School of Business
    > wants his professors to make good grades mean something. Robert
    > Mittelstaedt Jr. is urging professors in the Master of Business
    > Administration program to give "A's" to no more than 45 percent of each
    > class.
    >
    >
    >
    > To be precise, what is occurring at ASU's business school is not grade
    > "deflation" at all, but a rebalancing of the meaning of grades, which
    > too often tend to be packed toward the top.
    >
    >
    >
    > As Mittelstaedt notes, there is too little distinction in grading
    > between students who truly excel and students who merely do well.
    >
    >
    >
    > Because of rampant grade inflation in most universities, the business
    > community - especially those businesses that seek out the cream of the
    > MBA crop - no longer can discern between the two.
    >
    >
    >
    > But the worst offense of grade inflation - identified recently by the
    > federal Future of Higher Education Commission as a serious and growing
    > problem - is that it disinclines students from performing truly
    > excellent work.
    >
    >
    >
    > The trend away from grades that accurately reflect work effort is a
    > reflection of colleges treating students as customers buying an
    > expensive product rather than strictly as students.
    >
    >
    >
    > Few college deans understand the disincentives of grade inflation more
    > clearly than Mittelstaedt, who wrote recently in The Republic about his
    > reaction to getting a "D" in calculus at Tulane University. He got the
    > "message" of his bad grade, wrote Mittelstaedt, and retook the course.
    >
    >
    >
    > "I soon realized that if I had not done that and learned the subject
    > correctly, I would not have finished engineering school," he added.
    >
    >
    >
    > As the dean also noted, "we do not do young people any favors by
    > 'giving' them good grades."
    >
    >
    >
    > In the words of the old Smith Barney TV ads, ASU business students - a
    > future investment broker or two among them, no doubt - will soon be
    > doing things the old-fashioned way.
    >
    >
    >
    >


    --
    From: Peter Morgan
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    This mail sent through IMP: http://webmail.brad.ac.uk
    To report misuse from this email address forward the message
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  • 7.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-04-2006 05:05
    Bengt,

    Thanks for that and as someone involved in Institutional Quality Assurance, I
    completely concur - any student should receive marks which reflect their
    performance. I suspect the issue is how such a framework is used. I know some
    institutions who use relative schemes - i.e. only 5% get first class, etc.
    which I consider unjust - but we use a framework which examines modules, rather
    than student by student. If a module has a mean mark and/or standard deviation
    above or below expected levels, potential reasons (e.g. too easy assessment,
    poor quality teaching, structure of assessment, etc.) are discussed at exam
    board.

    Comments welcome. What happens elsewhere? Based on what arguments?

    Peter

    Dr Peter Morgan
    Senior University Teacher
    Faculty Development Coordinator
    University of Bradford School of Management
    W Yorks, UK



    Quoting Bengt Kjellén <bengt.kjellen@FEK.SU.SE>:

    > yes, interesting. and from an european union perspective, setting frameworks
    > for marks seems to be against the bologna directive which emphasises learning
    > outcomes rather than relative peformance. or have i gotten that wrong?
    >
    > cheers/bengt
    >
    > ------------------------------------------------------
    > Bengt Kjellén bkj@fek.su.se
    > Assistant Professor
    > School of Business
    > Stockholm University
    > ------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of
    > P.G.Morgan@BRADFORD.AC.UK
    > Sent: Wed 2006-08-02 11:41
    > To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    > Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly
    >
    > Jim,
    >
    > Interesting. From the UK perspective, marks are typically 50-65%, and I know
    > my
    > School sets a framework for marks, based around the expected range of the
    > mean
    > and standard deviations. The lower level of marks given in the UK sometimes
    > raises concerns amongst international students more used to marks in the 70's
    > and 80's.
    >
    > One comment: could you clarify what you mean by "allowing faculty to be
    > honest
    > in evaluating student performance"...? It strikes me that faculty should
    > always
    > be honest in this - for the ethics and good of all involved, or have I
    > misunderstood something?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Peter
    >
    >
    > Dr Peter Morgan
    > Senior University Teacher
    > Faculty Development Co-ordinator
    > University of Bradford School of Management
    >
    > Tel: +44 1274 234391
    > Fax: +44 1274 546866
    >
    >
    >
    > Quoting "Spee, Jim" <James_Spee@REDLANDS.EDU>:
    >
    > > Hi Charlie,
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Thanks for sharing the article on ASU. Setting grading norms is not a
    > > new or particularly innovative response to grade inflation.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > The Johnston Center for Integrative Studies here at the University of
    > > Redlands has a different solution: Students and faculty negotiate
    > > contracts for courses that include a course description, number of units
    > > for the course, and list of major assignments. Students write self
    > > evaluations and turn them in to their instructors. Faculty members
    > > write student evaluations and turn them in to the registrar along with a
    > > pass/fail grade. If the student completes only part of the contract but
    > > does so in a satisfactory way, the faculty member can reduce the number
    > > of units awarded but still give a passing evaluation.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Students often co-teach classes that they create in collaboration with
    > > each other and their instructors. They also create their own degree
    > > programs using a combination of existing courses and courses they create
    > > in their learning community. This is about as far from the industrial
    > > model of education as you can get.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I have worked with several students who are combining business with
    > > other areas of study such as music, or theatre.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Students from this program are much more likely to start their own
    > > organizations because they are used to initiating structure on their
    > > own. It is not for everyone, but it does resolve the grade inflation
    > > problem by allowing faculty to be honest in evaluating student
    > > performance. Johnston transcripts have been accepted at top graduate
    > > schools all over the country so the absence of a GPA does not seem to be
    > > a barrier to further study.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I would love to see a business school adopt this model because I think
    > > it is much more consistent with the way we advocate organizations should
    > > be run. What if we thought of the business school as a learning
    > > community instead of a degree factory?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > See you in Atlanta!
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Jim
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor
    > >
    > > 2006-2007 Past President, Western Academy of Management
    > >
    > > 2006 HR/OB Track Chair, North American Case Research Association
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > University of Redlands School of Business
    > >
    > > 1200 E. Colton Ave.
    > >
    > > Redlands CA 92373-0999
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Voice: 909-748-8786
    > >
    > > Fax: 909-335-5125
    > >
    > > Email: james_spee@redlands.edu
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"
    > >
    > > Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."
    > >
    > > Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006
    > >
    > > ________________________________
    > >
    > > From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    > > [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Wankel
    > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:06 AM
    > > To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    > > Subject: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > From:
    > > http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.h
    > > tml
    > > <http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0731mon2-31.
    > > html>
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Making grades make the grade, Arizona Republic, Jul. 31, 2006
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Most economists will tell you that deflation creates infinitely more
    > > risks than inflation.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Except, perhaps, when the subject is business-school grades rather than
    > > a nation's monetary health.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > The dean of Arizona State University's W.P. Carey School of Business
    > > wants his professors to make good grades mean something. Robert
    > > Mittelstaedt Jr. is urging professors in the Master of Business
    > > Administration program to give "A's" to no more than 45 percent of each
    > > class.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > To be precise, what is occurring at ASU's business school is not grade
    > > "deflation" at all, but a rebalancing of the meaning of grades, which
    > > too often tend to be packed toward the top.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > As Mittelstaedt notes, there is too little distinction in grading
    > > between students who truly excel and students who merely do well.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Because of rampant grade inflation in most universities, the business
    > > community - especially those businesses that seek out the cream of the
    > > MBA crop - no longer can discern between the two.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > But the worst offense of grade inflation - identified recently by the
    > > federal Future of Higher Education Commission as a serious and growing
    > > problem - is that it disinclines students from performing truly
    > > excellent work.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > The trend away from grades that accurately reflect work effort is a
    > > reflection of colleges treating students as customers buying an
    > > expensive product rather than strictly as students.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Few college deans understand the disincentives of grade inflation more
    > > clearly than Mittelstaedt, who wrote recently in The Republic about his
    > > reaction to getting a "D" in calculus at Tulane University. He got the
    > > "message" of his bad grade, wrote Mittelstaedt, and retook the course.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "I soon realized that if I had not done that and learned the subject
    > > correctly, I would not have finished engineering school," he added.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > As the dean also noted, "we do not do young people any favors by
    > > 'giving' them good grades."
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > In the words of the old Smith Barney TV ads, ASU business students - a
    > > future investment broker or two among them, no doubt - will soon be
    > > doing things the old-fashioned way.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    > --
    > From: Peter Morgan
    > ------------------------------------------------------------
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    > To report misuse from this email address forward the message
    > and full headers to misuse@bradford.ac.uk
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    >


    --
    From: Peter Morgan
    ------------------------------------------------------------
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  • 8.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-04-2006 11:36
    Dear MED Colleagues:

    It's also possible that exceptional teachers inspire exceptional
    student performance...

    I had an untenured colleague once, at a different school, who did a
    fantastic job, motivating students toward their best learning
    experiences. When his grade distribution reflected that student
    performance, he was released because the "higher-ups" (who did not
    teach with passion or cause inspired learning) insisted that he was
    running a bird course. My skeptical interpretation, confirmed by
    other actions of the same people, was that the established faculty
    didn't want anyone demonstrably out-performing their mediocre efforts.

    A grade distribution is a reflection of faculty performance, as well
    as student performance. When each professor has complete control
    over the grade distribution, does a high (or low) distribution
    reflect: good teaching; bad teaching; tough grading; easy grading?
    We need to understand the differences between these causes, as well
    as things like time of day. (Young adults generally don't learn well
    at 8:00 AM, but we keep scheduling classes at that hour. Who learns
    well in Wednesday evening courses? Who doesn't?)

    There are many explanations for grade distributions. Truly sorting
    out the causes of variation is not a simple task. Simplistic
    judgments about such variations do a profound disservice to faculty
    and students -- and to the integrity of institutions of higher
    education. We need to use better assessment methodologies, not just
    the whimsical politics of entrenched elites, or unthinking
    comparisons of numerical distributions.


    Dr. Tom Bryant
    Visiting Rohrer Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies
    Rowan University, Glassboro, NJ 08028, USA
    e-mail: bryant@rowan.edu



    On Aug 4, 2006, at 5:05 AM, P.G.Morgan@BRADFORD.AC.UK wrote:

    > Bengt,
    >
    > Thanks for that and as someone involved in Institutional Quality
    > Assurance, I
    > completely concur - any student should receive marks which reflect
    > their
    > performance. I suspect the issue is how such a framework is used. I
    > know some
    > institutions who use relative schemes - i.e. only 5% get first
    > class, etc.
    > which I consider unjust - but we use a framework which examines
    > modules, rather
    > than student by student. If a module has a mean mark and/or
    > standard deviation
    > above or below expected levels, potential reasons (e.g. too easy
    > assessment,
    > poor quality teaching, structure of assessment, etc.) are discussed
    > at exam
    > board.
    >
    > Comments welcome. What happens elsewhere? Based on what arguments?
    >
    > Peter
    >
    > Dr Peter Morgan
    > Senior University Teacher
    > Faculty Development Coordinator
    > University of Bradford School of Management
    > W Yorks, UK
    >
    >
    >
    > Quoting Bengt Kjellén <bengt.kjellen@FEK.SU.SE>:
    >
    >> yes, interesting. and from an european union perspective, setting
    >> frameworks
    >> for marks seems to be against the bologna directive which
    >> emphasises learning
    >> outcomes rather than relative peformance. or have i gotten that
    >> wrong?
    >>
    >> cheers/bengt
    >>
    >> ------------------------------------------------------
    >> Bengt Kjellén bkj@fek.su.se
    >> Assistant Professor
    >> School of Business
    >> Stockholm University
    >> ------------------------------------------------------
    >>


  • 9.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-04-2006 17:25
    All --
    What is the bottom line here?
    Seems to me that all this could be addressed simply by going to pass-fail and forget about grades.
    Set appropriate expectations for what is to be learned, access learning regularly, and inspire students in a way that they are motivated to learn instrinsically.
     
    pax,
    Rusty
     
    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: Tom Bryant <tom.brystra@GMAIL.COM>

    > Dear MED Colleagues:
    >
    > It's also possible that exceptional teachers inspire exceptional
    > student performance...
    >
    > I had an untenured colleague once, at a different school, who did a
    > fantastic job, motivating students toward their best learning
    > experiences. When his grade distribution reflected that student
    > performance, he was released because the "higher-ups" (who did not
    > teach with passion or cause inspired learning) insisted that he was
    > running a bird course. My skeptical interpretation, confirmed by
    > other actions of the same people, was that the established faculty
    > didn't want anyone demonstrably out-performing their mediocre efforts.
    >
    > A grade distribution is a refl ection of faculty performance, as well
    > as student performance. When each professor has complete control
    > over the grade distribution, does a high (or low) distribution
    > reflect: good teaching; bad teaching; tough grading; easy grading?
    > We need to understand the differences between these causes, as well
    > as things like time of day. (Young adults generally don't learn well
    > at 8:00 AM, but we keep scheduling classes at that hour. Who learns
    > well in Wednesday evening courses? Who doesn't?)
    >
    > There are many explanations for grade distributions. Truly sorting
    > out the causes of variation is not a simple task. Simplistic
    > judgments about such variations do a profound disservice to faculty
    > and students -- and to the integrity of institutions of higher
    > education. We need to use better assessment methodologies, not just
    > the whimsical politics of entrenched elites, or unthink ing
    > comparisons of numerical distributions.
    >
    >
    > Dr. Tom Bryant
    > Visiting Rohrer Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies
    > Rowan University, Glassboro, NJ 08028, USA
    > e-mail: bryant@rowan.edu
    >
    >
    >
    > On Aug 4, 2006, at 5:05 AM, P.G.Morgan@BRADFORD.AC.UK wrote:
    >
    > > Bengt,
    > >
    > > Thanks for that and as someone involved in Institutional Quality
    > > Assurance, I
    > > completely concur - any student should receive marks which reflect
    > > their
    > > performance. I suspect the issue is how such a framework is used. I
    > > know some
    > > institutions who use relative schemes - i.e. only 5% get first
    > > class, etc.
    > > which I consider unjust - but we use a framework which examines
    > > modules, rather
    > > than student by student. If a module has a mean mark and/or
    > > standard deviation
    > > above or below expected levels, potential reasons (e.g. too easy
    > > assessment,
    > > poor quality teaching, structure of assessment, etc.) are discussed
    > > at exam
    > > board.
    > >
    > > Comments welcome. What happens elsewhere? Based on what arguments?
    > >
    > > Peter
    > >
    > > Dr Peter Morgan
    > > Senior University Teacher
    > > Faculty Development Coordinator
    > > University of Bradford School of Management
    > > W Yorks, UK
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Quoting Bengt Kjell?n <bengt.kjellen@fek.su.se>:
    > >
    > >> yes, interesting. and from an european union perspective, setting
    > >> frameworks
    > >> for marks seems to be against the bologna directive which
    > >> emphasises learning
    > >> outcomes rather than relative peformance . or have i gotten that
    > >> wrong?
    > >>
    > >> cheers/bengt
    > >>
    > >> ------------------------------------------------------
    > >> Bengt Kjell?n bkj@fek.su.se
    > >> Assistant Professor
    > >> School of Business
    > >> Stockholm University
    > >> ------------------------------------------------------
    > >> </bengt.kjellen@fek.su.se>


  • 10.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-04-2006 18:13
    Rusty,
    Please explain the way you will use to inspire students to learn if the reward is Pass/Fail. 
     
    Tom,
    Kudos for highlighting the behavior of suppressing superior service.
     
    All,
    Because the Student - School is an implicit system isn't it necessary to 'grade' the school and the student simultaneously?
     
    All,
    Would you hire the ASU Dean to run your McDonald's franchise?
     
    Jack Ring
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:24 PM
    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    All --
    What is the bottom line here?
    Seems to me that all this could be addressed simply by going to pass-fail and forget about grades.
    Set appropriate expectations for what is to be learned, access learning regularly, and inspire students in a way that they are motivated to learn instrinsically.
     
    pax,
    Rusty
     
    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: Tom Bryant <tom.brystra@GMAIL.COM>

    > Dear MED Colleagues:
    >
    > It's also possible that exceptional teachers inspire exceptional
    > student performance...
    >
    > I had an untenured colleague once, at a different school, who did a
    > fantastic job, motivating students toward their best learning
    > experiences. When his grade distribution reflected that student
    > performance, he was released because the "higher-ups" (who did not
    > teach with passion or cause inspired learning) insisted that he was
    > running a bird course. My skeptical interpretation, confirmed by
    > other actions of the same people, was that the established faculty
    > didn't want anyone demonstrably out-performing their mediocre efforts.
    >
    > A grade distribution is a refl ection of faculty performance, as well
    > as student performance. When each professor has complete control
    > over the grade distribution, does a high (or low) distribution
    > reflect: good teaching; bad teaching; tough grading; easy grading?
    > We need to understand the differences between these causes, as well
    > as things like time of day. (Young adults generally don't learn well
    > at 8:00 AM, but we keep scheduling classes at that hour. Who learns
    > well in Wednesday evening courses? Who doesn't?)
    >
    > There are many explanations for grade distributions. Truly sorting
    > out the causes of variation is not a simple task. Simplistic
    > judgments about such variations do a profound disservice to faculty
    > and students -- and to the integrity of institutions of higher
    > education. We need to use better assessment methodologies, not just
    > the whimsical politics of entrenched elites, or unthink ing
    > comparisons of numerical distributions.
    >
    >
    > Dr. Tom Bryant
    > Visiting Rohrer Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies
    > Rowan University, Glassboro, NJ 08028, USA
    > e-mail: bryant@rowan.edu
    >


  • 11.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-04-2006 18:36

    Hi Jack,

     

    I'll take a shot at Rusty's question. How about you negotiate with them which parts of the material they most want to learn instead of jamming in a series of required courses that keep faculty employed but may be perceived as irrelevant to students (and possibly to future employers).  Graded or not, most business school students want to know that what they are learning will be useful in the real world.  (Even though I apparently don't live there!)  If we can make a convincing claim that the subject matter will be useful, not just to punch their ticket, but to make their lives better (let alone the community or the planet), then those who want to learn will. 

     

    I am not convinced that grades can motivate a student to learn who does not want to.

     

    Jim

     

    James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor

    2006-2007 Past President, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Western</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Academy</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Management

    2006 HR/<st1:place w:st="on">OB</st1:place> Track Chair, North American Case Research Association

     

    University of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Redlands</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Business

    <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address tabindex="0" style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" w:st="on">1200 E. Colton Ave.</st1:address></st1:street>

    <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Redlands</st1:city> <st1:state w:st="on">CA</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">92373-0999</st1:postalcode></st1:place>

     

    Voice:  909-748-8786

    Fax: 909-335-5125

    Email: james_spee@redlands.edu

     

    Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"

    Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."

    Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 3:13 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    Rusty,

    Please explain the way you will use to inspire students to learn if the reward is Pass/Fail. 

     

    Tom,

    Kudos for highlighting the behavior of suppressing superior service.

     

    All,

    Because the Student - School is an implicit system isn't it necessary to 'grade' the school and the student simultaneously?

     

    All,

    Would you hire the ASU Dean to run your McDonald's franchise?

     

    Jack Ring

    ----- Original Message -----

    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:24 PM

    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    All --

    What is the bottom line here?

    Seems to me that all this could be addressed simply by going to pass-fail and forget about grades.

    Set appropriate expectations for what is to be learned, access learning regularly, and inspire students in a way that they are motivated to learn instrinsically.

     

    pax,

    Rusty

     

    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: Tom Bryant <tom.brystra@GMAIL.COM>

    > Dear MED Colleagues:
    >
    > It's also possible that exceptional teachers inspire exceptional
    > student performance...
    >
    > I had an untenured colleague once, at a different school, who did a
    > fantastic job, motivating students toward their best learning
    > experiences. When his grade distribution reflected that student
    > performance, he was released because the "higher-ups" (who did not
    > teach with passion or cause inspired learning) insisted that he was
    > running a bird course. My skeptical interpretation, confirmed by
    > other actions of the same people, was that the established faculty
    > didn't want anyone demonstrably out-performing their mediocre efforts.
    >
    > A grade distribution is a refl ection of faculty performance, as well
    > as student performance. When each professor has complete control
    > over the grade distribution, does a high (or low) distribution
    > reflect: good teaching; bad teaching; tough grading; easy grading?
    > We need to understand the differences between these causes, as well
    > as things like time of day. (Young adults generally don't learn well
    > at 8:00 AM, but we keep scheduling classes at that hour. Who learns
    > well in Wednesday evening courses? Who doesn't?)
    >
    > There are many explanations for grade distributions. Truly sorting
    > out the causes of variation is not a simple task. Simplistic
    > judgments about such variations do a profound disservice to faculty
    > and students -- and to the integrity of institutions of higher
    > education. We need to use better assessment methodologies, not just
    > the whimsical politics of entrenched elites, or unthink ing
    > comparisons of numerical distributions.
    >
    >
    > Dr. Tom Bryant
    > Visiting Rohrer Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies
    > <st1:placename w:st="on">Rowan</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype>, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Glassboro</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">NJ</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">08028</st1:postalcode>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:place>
    > e-mail: bryant@rowan.edu
    >



  • 12.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-05-2006 19:35
    Hi all -- just back from a road trip and have not been able to get online for a day.
    Before I answer Jack's question, let me just add on to what Jim has noted with respect to students wanting to know what it is they are suppose to learn.
     
    Most adult education experts would say that it is important to put the educational objectives for each learning session on the board up front. I am a little jet-legged and so I can not quote chapter and verse at this exact moment -- but too often we just blithely go along assuming that student will "get it".
     
    For example, a friend of mine in an executive MBA class struggled with the accounting segment of study. My friend is a well read and highly creative person with several published books and numerous awards for his writing and photography. His undergraduate degree is in communications and his  background in the accounting arts was bascially nil (he jokes that he could spell debits and credits).
     
    He was fascinated with his accounting class and the case studies that were put forth by a professor who he said was excellent. However, he did say that he never new what he was suppose to be learning in these cases until it was too late. He told me that he always learned something, but he never new if what he was learning was what the instructor wanted him to learn.
     
    Now with respect to how will using a pass-fail grading system  motivate students, the answer is it will not. And this speaks to the cruz of the matter which is why are students in school -- it is to earn another degree, grab another honor, etc, or is it to learn something which will allow them to be a more successful person?
     
    When we induce grades we tend to force students in thinking that the point of school is getting an "A" rather than learning. Grades are more of a bribe than an actual measurement of educational performance. (See http://www.alfiekohn.org)
    if you want a more intellectual perspective on this.
     
    If you take away the grades you at least put students into a position where they are not grovelling for grades as if they were were the reason for being in class. Students tend to change their perspective on the class, are more relaxed, and in general tend to actually learn more and learn about the issues that are specifically important to them. The focus becomes learning rather than getting a grade. A good teacher can help to motivate students to find the intrinsic love of learning, but ultimately this is a lesson that each student mush learn for themselves.
     
    pax,
    rr 
     
    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: "Spee, Jim" <James_Spee@REDLANDS.EDU>

    Hi Jack,

     

    I?ll take a shot at Rusty?s question. How about you negotiate with them which parts of the material they most want to learn instead of jamming in a series of required courses that keep faculty employed but may be perceived as irrelevant to students (and possibly to future employers).  Graded or not, most business school students want to know that what they are learning will be useful in the real world.  (Even though I apparently don?t live there!)  If we can make a convincing claim that the subject matter will be useful, not just to punch their ticket, but to make their lives better (let alone the community or the planet), then those who want to learn will. 

     

    I am not convinced that grades can motivate a student to learn who does not want to.

     

    Jim

     

    James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor

    2006-2007 Past President, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Western</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Academy</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Management

    2006 HR/<st1:place w:st="on">OB</st1:place> Track Chair, North American Case Research Association

     

    University of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Redlands</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Business

    <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" tabindex="0" w:st="on">1200 E. Colton Ave.</st1:address></st1:street>

    <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Redlands</st1:city> <st1:state w:st="on">CA</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">92373-0999</st1:postalcode></st1:place>

     

    Voice:  909-748-8786

    Fax: 909-335-5125

    Email: james_spee@redlands.edu

     

    Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"

    Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."

    Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 3:13 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    Rusty,

    Please explain the way you will use to inspire students to learn if the reward is Pass/Fail. 

     

    Tom,

    Kudos for highlighting the behavior of suppressing superior service.

     

    All,

    Because the Student - School is an implicit system isn't it necessary to 'grade' the school and the student simultaneously?

     

    All,

    Would you hire the ASU Dean to run your McDonald's franchise?

     

    Jack Ring

    ----- Original Message -----

    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:24 PM

    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    All --

    What is the bottom line here?

    Seems to me that all this could be addressed simply by going to pass-fail and forget about grades.

    Set appropriate expectations for what is to be learned, access learning regularly, and inspire students in a way that they are motivated to learn instrinsically.

     

    pax,

    Rusty

     

    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: Tom Bryant <tom.brystra@GMAIL.COM>

    > Dear MED Colleagues:
    >
    > It's also possible that exceptional teachers inspire exceptional
    > student performance...
    >
    > I had an untenured colleague once, at a different school, who did a
    > fantastic job, motivating students toward their best learning
    > experiences. When his grade distribution reflected that student
    > performance, he was released because the "higher-ups" (who did not
    > teach with passion or cause inspired learning) insisted that he was
    > running a bird course. My skeptical interpretation, confirmed by
    > other actions of the same people, was that the established faculty
    > didn't want anyone demonstrably out-performing their mediocre efforts.
    >
    > A grade distribution is a refl ec tion of faculty performance, as well
    > as student performance. When each professor has complete control
    > over the grade distribution, does a high (or low) distribution
    > reflect: good teaching; bad teaching; tough grading; easy grading?
    > We need to understand the differences between these causes, as well
    > as things like time of day. (Young adults generally don't learn well
    > at 8:00 AM, but we keep scheduling classes at that hour. Who learns
    > well in Wednesday evening courses? Who doesn't?)
    >
    > There are many explanations for grade distributions. Truly sorting
    > out the causes of variation is not a simple task. Simplistic
    > judgments about such variations do a profound disservice to faculty
    > and students -- and to the integrity of institutions of higher
    > education. We need to use better assessment methodologies, not just
    > the whimsical politics of entrenched elites, or unthink i ng
    > comparisons of numerical distributions.
    >
    >
    > Dr. Tom Bryant
    > Visiting Rohrer Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies
    > <st1:placename w:st="on">Rowan</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype>, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Glassboro</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">NJ</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">08028</st1:postalcode>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:place>
    > e-mail: bryant@rowan.edu
    >



  • 13.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-05-2006 21:30
    Hi,
    I think your views (below) make sense --- for a percentage of the student population.  But the opposite may be true for the balance of the students.  That is, many will exert just enough effort to achieve Pass but not strive to excel.  In the business world understanding debits and credits is necessary but the 'desire to excel' is far more important.  To the degree that a grade point indicates this 'value' in a student, then the grade point is quite important.  I think that leaves us with the question of percentages.  I'll guess that 20% of the students will make 80%  of the difference in the real world and that 20% will strive for A's or B's.  And grading system that fails to indicate "knowing and becoming" is a disservice to both student and business.  Anyway, thanks for the response.
    cheers,
    Jack Ring 
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 4:34 PM
    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Hi all -- just back from a road trip and have not been able to get online for a day.
    Before I answer Jack's question, let me just add on to what Jim has noted with respect to students wanting to know what it is they are suppose to learn.
     
    Most adult education experts would say that it is important to put the educational objectives for each learning session on the board up front. I am a little jet-legged and so I can not quote chapter and verse at this exact moment -- but too often we just blithely go along assuming that student will "get it".
     
    For example, a friend of mine in an executive MBA class struggled with the accounting segment of study. My friend is a well read and highly creative person with several published books and numerous awards for his writing and photography. His undergraduate degree is in communications and his  background in the accounting arts was bascially nil (he jokes that he could spell debits and credits).
     
    He was fascinated with his accounting class and the case studies that were put forth by a professor who he said was excellent. However, he did say that he never new what he was suppose to be learning in these cases until it was too late. He told me that he always learned something, but he never new if what he was learning was what the instructor wanted him to learn.
     
    Now with respect to how will using a pass-fail grading system  motivate students, the answer is it will not. And this speaks to the cruz of the matter which is why are students in school -- it is to earn another degree, grab another honor, etc, or is it to learn something which will allow them to be a more successful person?
     
    When we induce grades we tend to force students in thinking that the point of school is getting an "A" rather than learning. Grades are more of a bribe than an actual measurement of educational performance. (See http://www.alfiekohn.org)
    if you want a more intellectual perspective on this.
     
    If you take away the grades you at least put students into a position where they are not grovelling for grades as if they were were the reason for being in class. Students tend to change their perspective on the class, are more relaxed, and in general tend to actually learn more and learn about the issues that are specifically important to them. The focus becomes learning rather than getting a grade. A good teacher can help to motivate students to find the intrinsic love of learning, but ultimately this is a lesson that each student mush learn for themselves.
     
    pax,
    rr 
     
    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: "Spee, Jim" <James_Spee@REDLANDS.EDU>

    Hi Jack,

     

    I’ll take a shot at Rusty’s question. How about you negotiate with them which parts of the material they most want to learn instead of jamming in a series of required courses that keep faculty employed but may be perceived as irrelevant to students (and possibly to future employers).  Graded or not, most business school students want to know that what they are learning will be useful in the real world.  (Even though I apparently don’t live there!)  If we can make a convincing claim that the subject matter will be useful, not just to punch their ticket, but to make their lives better (let alone the community or the planet), then those who want to learn will. 

     

    I am not convinced that grades can motivate a student to learn who does not want to.

     

    Jim

     

    James C. Spee, Ph.D. Associate Professor

    2006-2007 Past President, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Western</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">Academy</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Management

    2006 HR/<st1:place w:st="on">OB</st1:place> Track Chair, North American Case Research Association

     

    University of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Redlands</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place> of Business

    <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address style="BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" tabindex="0" w:st="on">1200 E. Colton Ave.</st1:address></st1:street>

    <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Redlands</st1:city> <st1:state w:st="on">CA</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">92373-0999</st1:postalcode></st1:place>

     

    Voice:  909-748-8786

    Fax: 909-335-5125

    Email: james_spee@redlands.edu

     

    Pointy haired boss: "Where's your artifical sense of urgency?"

    Dilbert: "Teamwork killed it."

    Dilbert, by Scott Adams, July 25, 2006

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jack Ring
    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 3:13 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    Rusty,

    Please explain the way you will use to inspire students to learn if the reward is Pass/Fail. 

     

    Tom,

    Kudos for highlighting the behavior of suppressing superior service.

     

    All,

    Because the Student - School is an implicit system isn't it necessary to 'grade' the school and the student simultaneously?

     

    All,

    Would you hire the ASU Dean to run your McDonald's franchise?

     

    Jack Ring

    ----- Original Message -----

    Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:24 PM

    Subject: Re: ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

     

    All --

    What is the bottom line here?

    Seems to me that all this could be addressed simply by going to pass-fail and forget about grades.

    Set appropriate expectations for what is to be learned, access learning regularly, and inspire students in a way that they are motivated to learn instrinsically.

     

    pax,

    Rusty

     

    -------------- Original message --------------
    From: Tom Bryant <tom.brystra@GMAIL.COM>

    > Dear MED Colleagues:
    >
    > It's also possible that exceptional teachers inspire exceptional
    > student performance...
    >
    > I had an untenured colleague once, at a different school, who did a
    > fantastic job, motivating students toward their best learning
    > experiences. When his grade distribution reflected that student
    > performance, he was released because the "higher-ups" (who did not
    > teach with passion or cause inspired learning) insisted that he was
    > running a bird course. My skeptical interpretation, confirmed by
    > other actions of the same people, was that the established faculty
    > didn't want anyone demonstrably out-performing their mediocre efforts.
    >
    > A grade distribution is a refl ec tion of faculty performance, as well
    > as student performance. When each professor has complete control
    > over the grade distribution, does a high (or low) distribution
    > reflect: good teaching; bad teaching; tough grading; easy grading?
    > We need to understand the differences between these causes, as well
    > as things like time of day. (Young adults generally don't learn well
    > at 8:00 AM, but we keep scheduling classes at that hour. Who learns
    > well in Wednesday evening courses? Who doesn't?)
    >
    > There are many explanations for grade distributions. Truly sorting
    > out the causes of variation is not a simple task. Simplistic
    > judgments about such variations do a profound disservice to faculty
    > and students -- and to the integrity of institutions of higher
    > education. We need to use better assessment methodologies, not just
    > the whimsical politics of entrenched elites, or unthink i ng
    > comparisons of numerical distributions.
    >
    >
    > Dr. Tom Bryant
    > Visiting Rohrer Professor of Entrepreneurial Studies
    > <st1:placename w:st="on">Rowan</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">University</st1:placetype>, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Glassboro</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">NJ</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">08028</st1:postalcode>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region></st1:place>
    > e-mail: bryant@rowan.edu
    >



  • 14.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-06-2006 01:04
    I have known instances where faculty give almost all As and Bs in a desperate attempt to get enough registrations for their courses (so that it does not get dropped) and those students who desperately need good grades to maintain their grade point average (above that required to graduate) are the ones to take these courses and then they give good feedback ratings to the faculty (which gets recorded). This mutual back scratching of students and faculty helps maintain low quality courses within the system.

    A stipulated distribution of grades (we at Indian Institute of Management Bangalore have max 25% A grades and max 70% A+B grades allowed) across courses - does help to correct this type of potential behavior. It ensures that faculty are judged by students (and given feedback ratings) on merit and not on their propensity to give good grades. It also ensures that only the best performers in the class get As.

    This has an "undesirable" side effect - apart from students, many of our recruiters also tend to take our issued grades and ranks very seriously in their shortlisting process! This means that some more suitable profile students from that company's point of view (say those who have appropriate prior experience) may not get shortlisted for interviews if their performance does not meet the cut-off grade set by the company.

    Ganesh N. Prabhu
    Indian Institute of Management Bangalore


  • 15.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-06-2006 15:13
    Snip...
     
    > A stipulated distribution of grades (we at Indian Institute of Management
    > Bangalore have max 25% A grades and max 70% A+B grades allowed) across courses -
    > does help to correct this type of potential behavior. It ensures that faculty
    > are judged by students (and given feedback ratings) on merit and not on their
    > propensity to give good grades. It also ensures that only the best performers in
    > the class get As.
    > Ganesh N. Prabhu
    > Indian Institute of Management Bangalore
    > ..snip
    This makes little sense to me. Is there a really a difference between a 79% score and an 80% score on an exam? I am sure that Enron was full of MBA's who got A's with regularity -- but as Einstein noted "Sometimes what counts most can not be counted."
    What happens if every student get's the same mark? How do you then do grades, by flipping a coin? Certainly this is not going to happen -- butif two are three students have the same marks how is the decision made? Subjectively of course. An how does help a student to learn more or be a better student?
     
    -rr


  • 16.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-07-2006 11:48
    Thanks for this discussion. I have been listening with great interest
    as we have a similar situation at my place of business. You are
    discussing grades, and we have a performance appraisal process. You
    have mathematical scores on tests to help, and we have performance
    metrics we measure. While the differences are obvious, it still comes
    down to one person rating the work of another and the best way to do so
    in a non-arbitrary, robust, valid, way that motivates people to work at
    their highest capacity by giving them an accurate idea of how their work
    measures up to that of the group or the expectations.

    Our performance appraisal (PA) system has a seven-point rating scale.
    Our written information about it encourages supervisor and supervisee to
    have a candid discussion about the job and its performance on a regular
    basis with a written appraisal once a year. It is hoped, again
    according to the written info, that the relationship between them will
    grow closer as a result of these conversations. In reality, the
    conversations are often a fight over the rating numbers assigned,
    sometimes with employees filing official complaints that they were rated
    too low. This, obviously, does nothing to grow the relationship. My
    mother taught in the University of Texas system for decades and there
    were also fights over grades (I'm sure you know the drill...).

    We have a number of locations with people doing the same jobs at each
    place. This brings the variations of the raters (supervisors) at these
    different locations into play - especially when an employee changes
    locations but not job duties. Ratings can change when there's little
    reason to believe the employee's quality of work has changed.

    We are now engaged in a pilot program to eliminate the numbers. One
    argument against this idea, which essentially makes it a pass/fail
    system, was the same one I read here - that taking away higher numbers
    to strive for will de-motivate employees to strive to do their best.
    The counter argument was that we believe we have employees with enough
    character that they will want to do their absolute best no matter how
    they are rated. We have run this program for over a year now in 3
    different departments. Reports so far are that when numbers aren't
    used, the conversations grow richer.

    Mike Kiska
    Training & O.D. Manager - Administrative Services
    Jefferson County Public Library
    Find us on the Web: http://jefferson.lib.co.us


  • 17.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-07-2006 17:37
    If we view grading with the same perspective we would require for fair and equitable treatment for AOM reviews, for example, would we advocate a grading rubric that must clearly delineate the objectives of the assignment, the skillset for grade levels (e.g., A, B, C, D), what must be demonstrated in each of those levels (metrics) and each student would receive the score the accummulated metrics indicate? We then throw all other concerns into a communal bit-bucket, where they belong and generate an experience that the student can correlate to the work-performance world.
     
    A primitive example to illustrate,
     
     
    Darlene
    Darlene Alexander-Houle
    281-514-0111
    281-851-3924 (cell)
     

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  • 18.  ASU dean - give non-A grades mostly

    Posted 08-15-2006 10:06
    snip <<<
    We are now engaged in a pilot program to eliminate the numbers. One
    argument against this idea, which essentially makes it a pass/fail
    system, was the same one I read here - that taking away higher numbers
    to strive for will de-motivate employees to strive to do their best.
    The counter argument was that we believe we have employees with enough
    character that they will want to do their absolute best no matter how
    they are rated. We have run this program for over a year now in 3
    different departments. Reports so far are that when numbers aren't
    used, the conversations grow richer.

    Mike Kiska
    Training & O.D. Manager - Administrative Services
    Jefferson County Public Library
    Find us on the Web: http://jefferson.lib.co.us
    <<<

    this is interesting and it also points to the fact that we are discussing different things under the same heading, grades. among these different things are:

    - giving guidelines for expected performance; students suss out and adopt very quickly to what we actually expect of them, which more often than not is more strongly reflected in our scoring or grading practice than in what we say about, e.g, learning goals;
    - giving feedback on actual performance, during and after the course;
    - documentation of studies and results; this is both for the student and for the department or school (in Sweden we receive money based partly on how many students that pass their courses);
    - help in selection for further studies;
    - help in selection among employers of suitable candidates;

    looking at this list, i would conclude that we do not need any elaborate grading systems for the first three or four items, but that interest in the fifth will require them. here, it may be noted that recent directives from the European Union on grade structures and bases for grading explicitly aim at greater comparability between countries, and it is believed, as a consequence of that higher "employability" for students. this means that e.g Sweden will be forced to go from a pass-pass with distinction scale with 3 grading levels to 7 levels.

    but, as many people have pointed out, the grading is made in context, i.e. to really understand it you need to know how things are done at different places of learning.

    one conclusion that might be drawn is that we, as teachers, are forced to spend time and energy on something that is not very relevant from a pedagogical viewpoint, and therefore also might be hard to justify to students.

    my slightly more than 2 "öre"...

    cheers/bengt