Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  Simulation and its role in education

    Posted 09-03-2006 19:21
    I like Kim's comment about simulations as not needing to be closely realistic to all aspects of what is being represented.
    And am wondering just how close to 'real' a lecture format is? Why must 'simulation' be 'adequately real' when lectures are so clearly not so?
    My experience of the 'work world' is that the only time I was 'lectured' at work was when I was perceived to have been doing something wrong, and therefore in need of chastisement.
    At all other times I was either shown how to do tasks, in a cumulative manner, that helped me grasp the whole of a task (just as simulations can do in learning contexts) or asked to observe someone else in action and then discuss what I had seen, etc
    Simulations - almost by definition - cannot be expected to be 'fully realistic' (that is after all 'real life') and therefore will never be able to 'adequately represent [full] reality.' This is not thier intent or purpose.
    A good simulations designer - and user - is able to focus on the aspects of the 'real' required for consideration in relation to chosen specific learning topics.
    So my question is - "Why is it seen to be so complicated / even controversial to use 'simulation' as a teaching/learning format?"
    And, in thinking about possible answers to the question, I was reminded this morning (via "Citation de la semaine" a lovely weekly quote resource) of Carl Jung's observation that "Whatever we fight in the outside world is also a battle in our inner lives" and offer it as an aspect of what I experience as part of the nature of the 'battle' about the use of simulation in tertiary learning contexts.
    Elyssebeth Leigh


  • 2.  Simulation and its role in education

    Posted 09-04-2006 04:46
    If a simulation is only "adequately real" is it a simulation?
    When does a simulatin become a role play, for example?
     
    I've just prepared an assignment for an MBA class that places Ss in project teams, and the Instructor in two roles: CEO and External Consultant. It's only an approximation of the real world and, while many real-world skills need to be used and real-world decisions must be made, I don't feel that I can call it a simulation.
     
    Terence Egan

     


    Terence Egan
    Associate Professor
    Business and MBA Schools
    Central University of Finance and Economics
    Beijing, PR China
     


    On Yahoo!7
    Fuel Price Watch - Find and map the cheapest petrol prices in Australia


  • 3.  Simulation and its role in education

    Posted 09-04-2006 10:09
    I think in this discussion about simulations it is useful to pay attention to the difference between the intended and the unintended curriculum.

    To explain what I mean by this let me use my own experience of studying Pure Mathematics at undergraduate level. Looking back on the experience I acquired a great deal of knowledge (about ring theory, topological spaces etc) and some skills in analysis, deduction and abduction. However, I also learned (without realising it) that all problems have a (correct) solution and that problems come well packaged and clearly defined. In my first job (working in a government research lab looking at the thermal behavior of buildings) I had some rather painful unlearning to do. Few problems were well defined (or even defined at all) and it was usually unclear if there was a workable solution never might a single correct answer. Of then the skill was in framing the right problem rather than seeking an elegant answer to the puzzle at hand.

    Most of the theory that we teach students is wrong, in the important sense that in making theory sufficiently abstract to generalise to many situations we throw away many of the contingencies which apply in the real world of application. There is abundant research evidence that what is leaned in the classroom often gets poorly transferred into working practice. We need ways of teaching students the important skills of translating between theory and practice. An ideal route is to study alongside work or real world projects and to continually move between study and practice. However, this is often not possible. Hence we look for routes to provide students with the opportunity to grapple with applying theory in complex and messy settings which mimic some of the difficulties of real world applications. Hence the value in such approaches as role plays, case studies and simulations. Just as in the workplace bad learning can happen as well as good and some of this depends on how we use these tools and how we assess students' learning from them.

    Badly used the unintended curriculum of a session with a simulation concerns second guessing the rules of the simulation and trying to 'play the system' to get maximum score. On the other hand if the simulation is used as a starting point for dialogue between students about the process of applying particular theories and frameworks in dynamic and complex settings, then the realism of the simulation is less the point than the quality of the dialogue it stimulates and the learning which can come out of it.

    I am incidentally a real fan of Kim's simulations which reflect a very important aspect of real world problems - the dynamic nature of business problems.

    Mark

    Prof. Mark Fenton-O'Creevy
    Director, Programmes and Curriculum, OU Business School
    Director, Practice Based Professional Learning Centre
    & Professor of Organisational Behaviour
    Open University
    Walton Hall
    Milton Keynes MK7 6AA
    United Kingdom


    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk
    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804
    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898




    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of Elyssebeth Leigh
    Sent: Mon 04/09/2006 00:21
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simulation and its role in education



    I like Kim's comment about simulations as not needing to be closely realistic to all aspects of what is being represented.
    And am wondering just how close to 'real' a lecture format is? Why must 'simulation' be 'adequately real' when lectures are so clearly not so?
    My experience of the 'work world' is that the only time I was 'lectured' at work was when I was perceived to have been doing something wrong, and therefore in need of chastisement.
    At all other times I was either shown how to do tasks, in a cumulative manner, that helped me grasp the whole of a task (just as simulations can do in learning contexts) or asked to observe someone else in action and then discuss what I had seen, etc
    Simulations - almost by definition - cannot be expected to be 'fully realistic' (that is after all 'real life') and therefore will never be able to 'adequately represent [full] reality.' This is not thier intent or purpose.
    A good simulations designer - and user - is able to focus on the aspects of the 'real' required for consideration in relation to chosen specific learning topics.
    So my question is - "Why is it seen to be so complicated / even controversial to use 'simulation' as a teaching/learning format?"
    And, in thinking about possible answers to the question, I was reminded this morning (via "Citation de la semaine" a lovely weekly quote resource) of Carl Jung's observation that "Whatever we fight in the outside world is also a battle in our inner lives" and offer it as an aspect of what I experience as part of the nature of the 'battle' about the use of simulation in tertiary learning contexts.
    Elyssebeth Leigh


  • 4.  Simulation and its role in education

    Posted 09-04-2006 15:50
    In a message dated 9/4/2006 2:11:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Elyssebeth.Leigh@UTS.EDU.AU writes:

    A good simulations designer - and user - is able to focus on the aspects of the 'real' required for consideration in relation to chosen specific learning topics.
    So my question is - "Why is it seen to be so complicated / even controversial to use 'simulation' as a teaching/learning format?"


    Well put, Elyssebeth.  That is why, of the 50 or so simulations that I have either designed or co-authored, only the few for economics classes were broad in scope.

    The others that were either also published by Science Research Associates or by Didactic Systems for managers and supervisors, all focused on a narrow topic such as grievance handling, problems in communications, Transactional Analysis, conflict management (one for peer situations, and another for manager/staff member confrontations), conducting effective meetings, delegation, constructive discipline, interviewing, collective bargaining, etc. 

    Some of these were used by many thousands of learners and were well liked by the learners and by the managers of learning.

    Thought this might be a useful perspective.

    Erwin


  • 5.  Simulation and its role in education

    Posted 09-04-2006 17:40
    Just an idle comment. :-)

    In my view, "simulation" implies that there is a similarity to real live
    situations. Hence when pilots use a simulator, they feel it is the real
    thing, and so they should. However, in my experience, we can not adequately
    set up a "management" situation to correspond adequately to real life.
    (Having said that, do "The Apprentice" or "Hells Kitchen" or Monster Garage"
    qualify. What about "Dragons Den". Both are highly dramatic and Tverised
    for our entertainment. But do the participants learn any real life skills
    of enduring value?)

    If "simulations" are then difficult to make real, perhaps there is another
    name that should be used like "an exercise" or "a game".

    Anyway. To the point. The best "exercise" I have participate in was "the
    Beer Game" from the Fifth Discipline - Senge. I played this as part of my
    MBA program (1995) when discussing interconnected systems and institutional
    knowledge. I have forgotten much from the MBA program but not this game nor
    the lessons from it.

    So the questions are... Why did this game work for me? Was my positive
    experience universal or unique? Anecdotally, many in the class did not
    enjoy the game. However I do not know if they learnt the lessons even
    though they did not enjoy the experience.

    Kind regards

    David Fraser



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion
    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy
    Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 2:09 a.m.
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simulation and its role in education

    I think in this discussion about simulations it is useful to pay attention
    to the difference between the intended and the unintended curriculum.

    To explain what I mean by this let me use my own experience of studying Pure
    Mathematics at undergraduate level. Looking back on the experience I
    acquired a great deal of knowledge (about ring theory, topological spaces
    etc) and some skills in analysis, deduction and abduction. However, I also
    learned (without realising it) that all problems have a (correct) solution
    and that problems come well packaged and clearly defined. In my first job
    (working in a government research lab looking at the thermal behavior of
    buildings) I had some rather painful unlearning to do. Few problems were
    well defined (or even defined at all) and it was usually unclear if there
    was a workable solution never might a single correct answer. Of then the
    skill was in framing the right problem rather than seeking an elegant answer
    to the puzzle at hand.

    Most of the theory that we teach students is wrong, in the important sense
    that in making theory sufficiently abstract to generalise to many situations
    we throw away many of the contingencies which apply in the real world of
    application. There is abundant research evidence that what is leaned in the
    classroom often gets poorly transferred into working practice. We need ways
    of teaching students the important skills of translating between theory and
    practice. An ideal route is to study alongside work or real world projects
    and to continually move between study and practice. However, this is often
    not possible. Hence we look for routes to provide students with the
    opportunity to grapple with applying theory in complex and messy settings
    which mimic some of the difficulties of real world applications. Hence the
    value in such approaches as role plays, case studies and simulations. Just
    as in the workplace bad learning can happen as well as good and some of this
    depends on how we use these tools and how we assess students' learning from
    them.

    Badly used the unintended curriculum of a session with a simulation concerns
    second guessing the rules of the simulation and trying to 'play the system'
    to get maximum score. On the other hand if the simulation is used as a
    starting point for dialogue between students about the process of applying
    particular theories and frameworks in dynamic and complex settings, then the
    realism of the simulation is less the point than the quality of the dialogue
    it stimulates and the learning which can come out of it.

    I am incidentally a real fan of Kim's simulations which reflect a very
    important aspect of real world problems - the dynamic nature of business
    problems.

    Mark

    Prof. Mark Fenton-O'Creevy
    Director, Programmes and Curriculum, OU Business School Director, Practice
    Based Professional Learning Centre & Professor of Organisational Behaviour
    Open University Walton Hall Milton Keynes MK7 6AA United Kingdom


    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk
    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804
    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898




    ________________________________

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of
    Elyssebeth Leigh
    Sent: Mon 04/09/2006 00:21
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simulation and its role in education



    I like Kim's comment about simulations as not needing to be closely
    realistic to all aspects of what is being represented.
    And am wondering just how close to 'real' a lecture format is? Why must
    'simulation' be 'adequately real' when lectures are so clearly not so?
    My experience of the 'work world' is that the only time I was 'lectured' at
    work was when I was perceived to have been doing something wrong, and
    therefore in need of chastisement.
    At all other times I was either shown how to do tasks, in a cumulative
    manner, that helped me grasp the whole of a task (just as simulations can do
    in learning contexts) or asked to observe someone else in action and then
    discuss what I had seen, etc Simulations - almost by definition - cannot be
    expected to be 'fully realistic' (that is after all 'real life') and
    therefore will never be able to 'adequately represent [full] reality.' This
    is not thier intent or purpose.
    A good simulations designer - and user - is able to focus on the aspects of
    the 'real' required for consideration in relation to chosen specific
    learning topics.
    So my question is - "Why is it seen to be so complicated / even
    controversial to use 'simulation' as a teaching/learning format?"
    And, in thinking about possible answers to the question, I was reminded this
    morning (via "Citation de la semaine" a lovely weekly quote resource) of
    Carl Jung's observation that "Whatever we fight in the outside world is also
    a battle in our inner lives" and offer it as an aspect of what I experience
    as part of the nature of the 'battle' about the use of simulation in
    tertiary learning contexts.
    Elyssebeth Leigh


  • 6.  Simulation and its role in education

    Posted 09-07-2006 04:11

    David [and another post] raise an important extension to the range of activities that count as 'simulation', namely role-playing exercises.

     

    I don't know if I'm right on this, but I imagine most folk would describe as 'simulations' a whole lot of models that do not exactly replicate the real-world, ranging from PC games like The Sims, or SimCity, right through to board-games like the Beer Game [which is indeed a great exercise] or the military strategy game Risk, and even role-playing exercises. Perhaps the key consideration is that the simulation should be fit for purpose, which means we need to be clear what its purpose actually is. There is certainly a distinction in the simulation tradition I am familiar with between models for decision-making, and models for learning. Even those for decision-making, though, do not have to replicate the real world exactly, just close enough to be confident that one decision is better than another, within reasonable bounds of uncertainty about factors that are not precisely known.

     

    It should not be a problem learning within the limits of simple sims, provided the debrief includes a question like "We know this is not exactly playing out like the real world, so what differences might we find in the case under discussion, and how might those differences change the learning from this experience?" If I understand Mark Fenton-O'Creevy correctly, I think he is making three important points [1] in the real world few problems are well defined or have a single correct solution. [Business simulations can often generate multiple routes to similar performance results]. [2] generalised theories are unable to encompass the contingencies of the real world.  [3] simulations used well, seek not to provide "an answer" or a single solution, but create a  starting point for dialogue about linkages between theory, frameworks and real life as well as the dynamic nature of the problems they illustrate. None of which seem to require that a simulation should exactly match the real world.

     

    Strictly, the only simulation that truly replicates the real-world is the real world itself [not even aircraft simulators are 100% precise]. John Sterman at MIT was amongst the first, I believe, to use the term 'microworld' to describe relatively simple simulations that nevertheless depict a small part of how a particular situation plays out over time. I think this terms originates with Seymour Papert, [1980, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Mindstorms</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">New York</st1:state></st1:place>: Basic Books], which astonishingly for its day looked forward to a time when computers would be ubiquitous and allow people to learn by playing with caricatures of real-world phenomena. 

     

    Elyssebeth's question .. "Why is it seen to be so complicated / even controversial to use 'simulation' as a teaching/learning format?" is spot-on. The only answers I can think of [not mutually exclusive] are

    [a] most management teaching is based on frameworks that are felt to be too sophisticated to be adequately conveyed in a simple sim [though the Bass diffusion model from an earlier post is a counter-example]

    [b] since most management frameworks result from cross-sectional analysis, especially linear regression, they are not capable of portraying how things change through time and thus are not worth putting into simulations [though many of the 'big' simulation games like MarkStrat and Capsim manage to convey extremely rich and dynamic situations, whilst still incorporating such static frameworks .. and we might ask if our theories are much use in any case if they cannot capture dynamics!].

    [c] teachers believe real-world situations are so full of abstract issues, such as leadership or culture, that there is no value in using anything that lacks such features

    [d] instructors may be put off by the learning investment needed to understand simulations they have not developed themselves [though a colleague of mine does a brilliant job of teaching with a simulation that he has never even used himself!] .. and we accept the need to invest time in taking on other new teaching materials, such as case studies

    [e] perhaps people fear that if they are not orchestrating class, then the learning is out of their control [the flip-side of this coin being that students can undertake many hours of productive learning without requiring teacher-time, which is a significant consideration in these times of pressure on teacher productivity]

    [f] teachers who did not themselves grow up learning from simulations do not see their value, so younger instructors may be less averse

    [g] perhaps there is an impression that simulations are necessarily tricky to set up, complex to run, and take inordinate amounts of time .. which may be true of some big games, but is not at all necessarily true - I use a couple of simple games that a group can their heads around in about 10 minutes and learn from productively in less than an hour.

     

    I am not sure these resisting forces can hold on for much longer - students themselves have now all grown up with simulations as part of their learning, and may be losing patience with static frameworks and class-room debate as the dominant teaching philosophy, no matter how rich the web-site/video support that is included. There also seem to be signs that buyers of management education are expecting to see simulation activities included in the executive programs provided by business schools and other trainers.

     

    Kim Warren: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">London</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place>

     

    -----Original Message-----
    From: David Fraser [mailto:david_nz@XTRA.CO.NZ]
    Sent: 04 September 2006 22:40
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Simulation and its role in education

     

    Just an idle comment.  :-) 

     

    In my view, "simulation" implies that there is a similarity to real live

    situations.  Hence when pilots use a simulator, they feel it is the real

    thing, and so they should.  However, in my experience, we can not adequately

    set up a "management" situation to correspond adequately to real life.

    (Having said that, do "The Apprentice" or "Hells Kitchen" or Monster Garage"

    qualify.  What about "Dragons Den".  Both are highly dramatic and Tverised

    for our entertainment.  But do the participants learn any real life skills

    of enduring value?)

     

    If "simulations" are then difficult to make real, perhaps there is another

    name that should be used like "an exercise" or "a game".

     

    Anyway.  To the point.  The best "exercise" I have participate in was "the

    Beer Game" from the Fifth Discipline - Senge.  I played this as part of my

    MBA program (1995) when discussing interconnected systems and institutional

    knowledge.  I have forgotten much from the MBA program but not this game nor

    the lessons from it. 

     

    So the questions are... Why did this game work for me?  Was my positive

    experience universal or unique?  Anecdotally, many in the class did not

    enjoy the game.  However I do not know if they learnt the lessons even

    though they did not enjoy the experience.

     

    Kind regards

     

    David Fraser

     

     

     

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion

    [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of M.P.Fenton-OCreevy

    Sent: Tuesday, 5 September 2006 2:09 a.m.

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Simulation and its role in education

     

    I think in this discussion about simulations it is useful to pay attention

    to the difference between the intended and the  unintended curriculum.

     

    To explain what I mean by this let me use my own experience of studying Pure

    Mathematics at undergraduate level. Looking back on the experience I

    acquired a great deal of knowledge (about ring theory, topological spaces

    etc) and some skills in analysis, deduction and abduction. However, I also

    learned (without realising it) that all problems have a (correct) solution

    and that problems come well packaged and clearly defined. In my first job

    (working in a government research lab looking at the thermal behavior of

    buildings) I had some rather painful unlearning to do. Few problems were

    well defined (or even defined at all) and it was usually unclear if there

    was a workable solution never might a single correct answer. Of then the

    skill was in framing the right problem rather than seeking an elegant answer

    to the puzzle at hand.

     

    Most of the theory that we teach students is wrong, in the important sense

    that in making theory sufficiently abstract to generalise to many situations

    we throw away many of the contingencies which apply in the real world of

    application. There is abundant research evidence that what is leaned in the

    classroom often gets poorly transferred into working practice. We need ways

    of teaching students the important skills of translating between theory and

    practice. An ideal route is to study alongside work or real world projects

    and to continually move between study and practice. However, this is often

    not possible. Hence we look for routes to provide students with the

    opportunity to grapple with applying theory in complex and messy settings

    which mimic some of the difficulties of real world applications. Hence the

    value in such approaches as role plays, case studies and simulations. Just

    as in the workplace bad learning can happen as well as good and some of this

    depends on how we use these tools and how we assess students' learning from

    them.

     

    Badly used the unintended curriculum of a session with a simulation concerns

    second guessing the rules of the simulation and trying to 'play the system'

    to get maximum score. On the other hand if the simulation is used as a

    starting point for dialogue between students about the process of applying

    particular theories and frameworks in dynamic and complex settings, then the

    realism of the simulation is less the point than the quality of the dialogue

    it stimulates and the learning which can come out of it.

     

    I am incidentally a real fan of Kim's simulations which reflect a very

    important aspect of real world problems - the dynamic nature of business

    problems.

     

    Mark

     

    Prof. Mark Fenton-O'Creevy

    Director,  Programmes and Curriculum, OU <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place> Director, Practice

    Based Professional Learning Centre & Professor of Organisational Behaviour

    Open University Walton Hall Milton Keynes MK7 6AA <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United Kingdom</st1:place></st1:country-region>

     

     

    e-mail: m.p.fenton-ocreevy@open.ac.uk

    (DL) +44 (0)1908-655804

    Fax: +44 (0)1908-655898

     

     

     

     

    ________________________________

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion on behalf of

    Elyssebeth Leigh

    Sent: Mon 04/09/2006 00:21

    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU

    Subject: Re: Simulation and its role in education

     

     

     

    I like Kim's comment about simulations as not needing to be closely

    realistic to all aspects of what is being represented.

    And am wondering just how close to 'real' a lecture format is? Why must

    'simulation' be 'adequately real' when lectures are so clearly not so?

    My experience of the 'work world' is that the only time I was 'lectured' at

    work was when I was perceived to have been doing something wrong, and

    therefore in need of chastisement.

    At all other times I was either shown how to do tasks, in a cumulative

    manner, that helped me grasp the whole of a task (just as simulations can do

    in learning contexts) or asked to observe someone else in action and then

    discuss what I had seen, etc Simulations - almost by definition - cannot be

    expected to be 'fully realistic' (that is after all 'real life') and

    therefore will never be able to 'adequately represent [full] reality.'  This

    is not thier intent or purpose.

    A good simulations designer - and user - is able to focus on the aspects of

    the 'real' required for consideration in relation to chosen specific

    learning topics.

    So my question is - "Why is it seen to be so complicated / even

    controversial to use 'simulation' as a teaching/learning format?"

    And, in thinking about possible answers to the question, I was reminded this

    morning (via "Citation de la semaine" a lovely weekly quote resource) of

    Carl Jung's observation that "Whatever we fight in the outside world is also

    a battle in our inner lives" and offer it as an aspect of what I experience

    as part of the nature of the 'battle' about the use of simulation in

    tertiary learning contexts.

    Elyssebeth Leigh