Discussion: View Thread

  • 1.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-16-2008 15:39
    Chris, Gary, Jim and Fellow Colleagues,
     

    As an Organizational Psychologist, I am curious as to your self-deprecation about our role in the lack of business ethics demonstrated by some our former students and the suggestion that we should "brain wash" our students "to put service above self".  If I followed your sage advice, my students would nod in agreement, but conclude that I'd crossed the line from education to preaching.  My students come to my classes with their ethics firmly in place after twenty-some years of socialization.  They see no ethical issue when working for a financial corporation to do what's best for the company.  When their boss tells them to push sub-prime mortgages and these loans will be approved by the corporate committees, they acquiesce.    This is especially the case when the Federal authorities support universal home ownership, as a high priority. 

     Let's not blame our former students for what was clearly a systemic process from the top to the bottom.  This public policy of promoting a home for all was succeeding briefly until the mortgage payments were overdue.  It was a bold government experiment based on ideology that failed in our more complex world.  Looking back, we can see the folly.  Nature will find a way to reward our dysfunctional society.  Continuing to ignore nature in this manner may well spell the end of human history.  We must learn to become better caretakers.

     

    Cheers,
     
    George
    Dr. George B. Graen
    Retired Professor of
    Organizational Psychology
    University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana
    /jag




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  • 2.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-17-2008 12:22
     




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  • 3.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-17-2008 14:58
    Bob, George and all:

    I cannot disagree with any, or many, of your comments.  It certainly seems that we are ignoring the higher level "culture" of the business world in general about doing "right" for the Company and ourselves.  I have heard from too many grads who have tried to implement, carryout, or influence "the way things are done," only to be rejected, intimidated, and even worse in their own organizations.  They are "beaten down" for their efforts to be whistle-blowers, change pioneers or the like.

    Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards needed to turn this around and make "business ethics" less of an oxymoron.

    Ted

    On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:22 PM, George Graen <Lmxlotus@aol.com> wrote:
     




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    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: "Bob Gately" <bobgately@verizon.net>
    To: "George Graen" <Lmxlotus@AOL.COM>
    Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:10:55 -0400
    Subject: re: Think about the global crises

    Hello Dr. Graen:

     

    First, let me thank you for teaching.

     

    In my younger days I forgot to thank my professors for their hard work.

     

    Also, psychology is far more interesting than engineering.

     

    >... I am curious as to your self-deprecation about our role in the lack of business ethics demonstrated by some our former students and the suggestion that we should "brain wash" our students "to put service above self".<

     

    I agree, I never wanted any professor to tell me the way the world should be but then again I started my college career at the age of 23 as a Air Force veteran and was too old to be blatantly misled.

     

    >If I followed your sage advice, my students would nod in agreement, but conclude that I'd crossed the line from education to preaching.<

     

    Exactly!

     

    >My students come to my classes with their ethics firmly in place after twenty-some years of socialization.<

     

    That bit of wisdom seems to be unknown to most all trainers, college professors and business managers.

     

    In our business we recognize and take advantage of twenty-some years of socialization.

     

    >They see no ethical issue when working for a financial corporation to do what's best for the company.<

     

    Mom and Pop failed them somewhere if they would break the law or act unethically unless of course they don't know the ethics of their profession.

     

    I think the expression "Don't be holier than the Pope" applies to mortgage writers.

     

    >When their boss tells them to push sub-prime mortgages and these loans will be approved by the corporate committees, they acquiesce.<

     

    Most all employees actually want to keep their jobs.

     

    Not only were the loans "approved by the corporate committees" but also purchased by Frannie and Freddie.

     

    >This is especially the case when the Federal authorities support universal home ownership, as a high priority.<

     

    Excellent observation. I have made the same point in private replies to some posters.

     

    >Let's not blame our former students for what was clearly a systemic process from the top to the bottom.<

     

    I seem to agree with all your points.

     

    >This public policy of promoting a home for all was succeeding briefly until the mortgage payments were overdue.<

     

    Oh my, no one thought of that?

     

    >It was a bold government experiment based on ideology that failed in our more complex world.<

     

    And they will do it again.

     

    >Looking back, we can see the folly.<

     

    Where were the academicians in 2001 to 2007 when some in Congress tried to reign in the subprime mortgage business?  Were they quiet because they did not care or were they unaware or afraid to be called racists or worse, they actually agreed with giving loans to people who could not afford to make the payments? Whatever the answer I suspect our business schools failed us more than did their former students.

     

    >Continuing to ignore nature in this manner may well spell the end of human history.  We must learn to become better caretakers.<

     

    You take the fun out of foolishly spending other peoples' money.

     

    Bob

    Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA

    Gately Consulting

    115 Dutcher Street

    Hopedale, MA 01747-1006

    Tel: 508-634-7748

    Fax: 508-634-0670

     

     

     





    --
    --
    Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    UMBC at The Universities at Shady Grove
    throsen@umbc.edu
    USA


  • 4.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-17-2008 17:40

    Dear George and colleagues,

     

    Thank you for writing.  I found your observations interesting.  First, I felt no self-deprecation in our earlier emails, rather more an intent to engage a discussion about the role of business schools and management classes in shaping our society.  I thought Chris did a good job of teeing that up, and it seems to me a worthy discussion.  I didn't see anything about brain washing either.  I believe that no human being is completely value neutral.  This was perhaps Descartes' Error (as written by Tony Damasio.), that is that no human being can be or is completely objective.  I think it's also fair to conclude that we continue to learn more and more about how our genetic coding drives our behavior.  So, I personally, (I won't speak for the others) am not advocating "preaching" as you put it, rather a set of "if, then" statements that seem based in history, research, and current experience.  For example, "IF you don't regulate collective human behavior, THEN the odds are that you'll get some taking advantage unfairly of others."  We can place these  historical realities before the students and invite them to consider the collective consequences of human behavior.  As Peter Senge put it earlier this week, on water, air, waste, toxicity, food, energy, and the difference between those who have and those who don't.  He asserted, and I agree with him, that all systems discussions of "sustainability" must be about both natural (environment) and social systems.  The French Revolution was surely as disruptive as the discovery of the ozone hole. 

     

    Are ethics firmly in place after 21 years of socialization?  If so, we're doomed.  Look at Northern Ireland, Central Africa, the Balkans, Lebanon, the Middle East, pick your region and we see what I would call on-going dysfunctional conflicts being passed on from generation to generation without much change.  Mihalyi Csikszentmihalyi's central theme in the Evolving Self was that unless we/one can transcend one's genetic and memetic history, we will never be anything more than vessels perpetuating yesterday.  My own informal survey of business managers all over the world suggests that most people regardless of region, race or religion seem to believe that humans behave habitually at visible behavior (75%), conscious thought (85%) and core VABEs (values, assumptions, beliefs and expectations about the way the world is or should be) (99%).  That data would support your case for "firmly in place."  I want to reach the remaining 25-1%.  And I want to invite (not brainwash) the remaining 99-75% to re-consider things they've long since held to be "true."  I just finished reading a book entitled "The Myth of the First Three Years" written by a neuroscientist.  He asserts the brain is more malleable than we have historically thought.  I strive find and invite those who are more malleable on the VABE level (what I call Level Three).  And I think business schools OUGHT to do that.  We do need, I believe, to do more than teach what and how.  We need to teach why and then more than that, the value of re-examining the things one was socialized to believe when one was still tiny and defenseless.  Unless we can do that, the conflicts in the world will continue unabated.  I admire people like Peter Senge who've spent their lives devoted to that proposition-how can I get people to rethink what they think they know.

     

    Eric Hoffer once wrote that the learners shall inherit the earth while the learned shall find themselves increasingly well suited for a world that no longer exists.  And yes, it was a systemic process top to bottom.  Let's elucidate that system and encourage the next generation, born with a blank slate, to learn from it, so we don't do it again and again.  Surely that's not brainwashing.

     

    Best wishes as I go off on a date with my wife, the light of my life.

     

       Jim

    James G. S. Clawson

    Johnson & Higgins Professor of Business Administration

    Darden GSB, University of Virginia

    Box 6550, Charlottesville, VA 22906  

    100 Darden Boulevard, Charlottesville, VA 22903  USA

    Tel:  434 924 7488              Fax:  434 243 7680

    Web:  http://faculty.darden.virginia.edu/clawsonj

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of George Graen
    Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:39 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

     

    Chris, Gary, Jim and Fellow Colleagues,

     

    As an Organizational Psychologist, I am curious as to your self-deprecation about our role in the lack of business ethics demonstrated by some our former students and the suggestion that we should "brain wash" our students "to put service above self".  If I followed your sage advice, my students would nod in agreement, but conclude that I'd crossed the line from education to preaching.  My students come to my classes with their ethics firmly in place after twenty-some years of socialization.  They see no ethical issue when working for a financial corporation to do what's best for the company.  When their boss tells them to push sub-prime mortgages and these loans will be approved by the corporate committees, they acquiesce.    This is especially the case when the Federal authorities support universal home ownership, as a high priority. 

     Let's not blame our former students for what was clearly a systemic process from the top to the bottom.  This public policy of promoting a home for all was succeeding briefly until the mortgage payments were overdue.  It was a bold government experiment based on ideology that failed in our more complex world.  Looking back, we can see the folly.  Nature will find a way to reward our dysfunctional society.  Continuing to ignore nature in this manner may well spell the end of human history.  We must learn to become better caretakers.

     

    Cheers,

     

    George

    Dr. George B. Graen
    Retired Professor of
    Organizational Psychology
    University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana
    /jag




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  • 5.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-18-2008 06:20

    Whilst the ethics issues are important and challenging, we don't know how much this contributed to the problem vs. simple incompetence ... which is both clearer and more tractable. It seems unlikely that everyone involved in bringing about this crisis knew exactly what they were doing and nevertheless pursued it dishonestly.

    As educators, we can't reasonably be held responsible for immoral behaviour by our graduates, since we clearly don't condone it!, Society at large might, though, reasonably want to know why we didn't make sure they got the basic professional skills needed to not mess up on this huge scale.   

    So .. what should they have understood, why did the education we gave them fail, and what are we going to do differently to ensure the next generation don't perpetrate the same foolishness?

    Kim Warren: London Business School

     

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    Sent: 17 October 2008 19:58
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

     

    Bob, George and all:

    I cannot disagree with any, or many, of your comments.  It certainly seems that we are ignoring the higher level "culture" of the business world in general about doing "right" for the Company and ourselves.  I have heard from too many grads who have tried to implement, carryout, or influence "the way things are done," only to be rejected, intimidated, and even worse in their own organizations.  They are "beaten down" for their efforts to be whistle-blowers, change pioneers or the like.

    Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards needed to turn this around and make "business ethics" less of an oxymoron.

    Ted

    On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:22 PM, George Graen <Lmxlotus@aol.com> wrote:

     




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    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: "Bob Gately" <bobgately@verizon.net>
    To: "George Graen" <Lmxlotus@AOL.COM>
    Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:10:55 -0400
    Subject: re: Think about the global crises

    Hello Dr. Graen:

     

    First, let me thank you for teaching.

     

    In my younger days I forgot to thank my professors for their hard work.

     

    Also, psychology is far more interesting than engineering.

     

    >... I am curious as to your self-deprecation about our role in the lack of business ethics demonstrated by some our former students and the suggestion that we should "brain wash" our students "to put service above self".<

     

    I agree, I never wanted any professor to tell me the way the world should be but then again I started my college career at the age of 23 as a Air Force veteran and was too old to be blatantly misled.

     

    >If I followed your sage advice, my students would nod in agreement, but conclude that I'd crossed the line from education to preaching.<

     

    Exactly!

     

    >My students come to my classes with their ethics firmly in place after twenty-some years of socialization.<

     

    That bit of wisdom seems to be unknown to most all trainers, college professors and business managers.

     

    In our business we recognize and take advantage of twenty-some years of socialization.

     

    >They see no ethical issue when working for a financial corporation to do what's best for the company.<

     

    Mom and Pop failed them somewhere if they would break the law or act unethically unless of course they don't know the ethics of their profession.

     

    I think the expression "Don't be holier than the Pope" applies to mortgage writers.

     

    >When their boss tells them to push sub-prime mortgages and these loans will be approved by the corporate committees, they acquiesce.<

     

    Most all employees actually want to keep their jobs.

     

    Not only were the loans "approved by the corporate committees" but also purchased by Frannie and Freddie.

     

    >This is especially the case when the Federal authorities support universal home ownership, as a high priority.<

     

    Excellent observation. I have made the same point in private replies to some posters.

     

    >Let's not blame our former students for what was clearly a systemic process from the top to the bottom.<

     

    I seem to agree with all your points.

     

    >This public policy of promoting a home for all was succeeding briefly until the mortgage payments were overdue.<

     

    Oh my, no one thought of that?

     

    >It was a bold government experiment based on ideology that failed in our more complex world.<

     

    And they will do it again.

     

    >Looking back, we can see the folly.<

     

    Where were the academicians in 2001 to 2007 when some in Congress tried to reign in the subprime mortgage business?  Were they quiet because they did not care or were they unaware or afraid to be called racists or worse, they actually agreed with giving loans to people who could not afford to make the payments? Whatever the answer I suspect our business schools failed us more than did their former students.

     

    >Continuing to ignore nature in this manner may well spell the end of human history.  We must learn to become better caretakers.<

     

    You take the fun out of foolishly spending other peoples' money.

     

    Bob

    Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA

    Gately Consulting

    115 Dutcher Street

    Hopedale, MA 01747-1006

    Tel: 508-634-7748

    Fax: 508-634-0670

     

     

     

     




    --
    --
    Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    UMBC at The Universities at Shady Grove
    throsen@umbc.edu
    USA



  • 6.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-18-2008 15:00

    I want first to thank all those who have contributed to this dialogue, as your conversation has provided a place for reflection.

     

    I have been involved in leadership development as a consultant to and as a global head of management development for multi-national corporations. What I have seen is that generally the focus has been fully on Weber's (1947) "ethic of responsibility" (as defined by J.M. Burns, Leadership, 1978) a short-term focus on the practical, and that the matching focus on the "ethic of ultimate ends" where attending to the greater good is part and parcel of decision-making has by and large been absent. Clearly that Weber spoke to this in the early 1900's, and that Burn's on his treatise on Leadership in the 70's incorporated a reflection on of both brings to our attention that the requirement for a balance in focus has been noted time and again.  Yet the business community has only paid attention to the ethic of ultimate ends in response to moments of crisis. The call for ethics to be included in the Management curriculums was made after Enron, and our conversation is now taking place after the subprime debacle.  My query is how might a focus on both the ethics of responsibility and ethics of ultimate ends might exist in constancy with one another rather than as a reaction to events. How might we use these both in case reviews and dialogues to consider the longer term impact on sustainability?

     

    Best regards,
    Kathy

     

     

     

    Kathy D. Geller, Ph.D

    Director of Organizational Effectiveness

    Stanford University

    kgeller@stanford.edu

     

     

     


                                                                        




     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 3:20 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

     

    Whilst the ethics issues are important and challenging, we don't know how much this contributed to the problem vs. simple incompetence ... which is both clearer and more tractable. It seems unlikely that everyone involved in bringing about this crisis knew exactly what they were doing and nevertheless pursued it dishonestly.

    As educators, we can't reasonably be held responsible for immoral behaviour by our graduates, since we clearly don't condone it!, Society at large might, though, reasonably want to know why we didn't make sure they got the basic professional skills needed to not mess up on this huge scale.   

    So .. what should they have understood, why did the education we gave them fail, and what are we going to do differently to ensure the next generation don't perpetrate the same foolishness?

    Kim Warren: London Business School

     

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    Sent: 17 October 2008 19:58
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

     

    Bob, George and all:

    I cannot disagree with any, or many, of your comments.  It certainly seems that we are ignoring the higher level "culture" of the business world in general about doing "right" for the Company and ourselves.  I have heard from too many grads who have tried to implement, carryout, or influence "the way things are done," only to be rejected, intimidated, and even worse in their own organizations.  They are "beaten down" for their efforts to be whistle-blowers, change pioneers or the like.

    Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards needed to turn this around and make "business ethics" less of an oxymoron.

    Ted

    On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:22 PM, George Graen <Lmxlotus@aol.com> wrote:

     

     


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    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: "Bob Gately" <bobgately@verizon.net>
    To: "George Graen" <Lmxlotus@AOL.COM>
    Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:10:55 -0400
    Subject: re: Think about the global crises

    Hello Dr. Graen:

     

    First, let me thank you for teaching.

     

    In my younger days I forgot to thank my professors for their hard work.

     

    Also, psychology is far more interesting than engineering.

     

    >... I am curious as to your self-deprecation about our role in the lack of business ethics demonstrated by some our former students and the suggestion that we should "brain wash" our students "to put service above self".<

     

    I agree, I never wanted any professor to tell me the way the world should be but then again I started my college career at the age of 23 as a Air Force veteran and was too old to be blatantly misled.

     

    >If I followed your sage advice, my students would nod in agreement, but conclude that I'd crossed the line from education to preaching.<

     

    Exactly!

     

    >My students come to my classes with their ethics firmly in place after twenty-some years of socialization.<

     

    That bit of wisdom seems to be unknown to most all trainers, college professors and business managers.

     

    In our business we recognize and take advantage of twenty-some years of socialization.

     

    >They see no ethical issue when working for a financial corporation to do what's best for the company.<

     

    Mom and Pop failed them somewhere if they would break the law or act unethically unless of course they don't know the ethics of their profession.

     

    I think the expression "Don't be holier than the Pope" applies to mortgage writers.

     

    >When their boss tells them to push sub-prime mortgages and these loans will be approved by the corporate committees, they acquiesce.<

     

    Most all employees actually want to keep their jobs.

     

    Not only were the loans "approved by the corporate committees" but also purchased by Frannie and Freddie.

     

    >This is especially the case when the Federal authorities support universal home ownership, as a high priority.<

     

    Excellent observation. I have made the same point in private replies to some posters.

     

    >Let's not blame our former students for what was clearly a systemic process from the top to the bottom.<

     

    I seem to agree with all your points.

     

    >This public policy of promoting a home for all was succeeding briefly until the mortgage payments were overdue.<

     

    Oh my, no one thought of that?

     

    >It was a bold government experiment based on ideology that failed in our more complex world.<

     

    And they will do it again.

     

    >Looking back, we can see the folly.<

     

    Where were the academicians in 2001 to 2007 when some in Congress tried to reign in the subprime mortgage business?  Were they quiet because they did not care or were they unaware or afraid to be called racists or worse, they actually agreed with giving loans to people who could not afford to make the payments? Whatever the answer I suspect our business schools failed us more than did their former students.

     

    >Continuing to ignore nature in this manner may well spell the end of human history.  We must learn to become better caretakers.<

     

    You take the fun out of foolishly spending other peoples' money.

     

    Bob

    Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA

    Gately Consulting

    115 Dutcher Street

    Hopedale, MA 01747-1006

    Tel: 508-634-7748

    Fax: 508-634-0670

     

     

     

     




    --
    --
    Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    UMBC at The Universities at Shady Grove
    throsen@umbc.edu
    USA



  • 7.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-19-2008 11:18
    Colleagues,
     
    Kim Warren said, "what are we going to do differently to ensure the next generation don't perpetrate the same foolishness?"
     
    Ted Rosen said, "Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards."
     
    A suggestion:  Teach a paradigm shift. 
        Teach that the measure of success of a business or economy is sustainability. 
        Not growth.  Not what humanity has done for 10,000 years.  But a new measure.
        Instead of quarterly growth metrics, develop sustainability metrics.
        Not just sustainability as defined by environmentalists, but broader suites of ethics as a foundation for civilization.
     
    Only global education is a sufficient agent of change to define, clarify, and motivate such a result. 
     
    Best,
     
    Gary
     

    ...........................................

    Gary Lundquist

    Director@InnoSearchColorado.com

    Colorado Resources for Innovation

    303-840-9929 

    ...........................................

    GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

      Innovation of Business and

      the Business of Innovation  

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 4:20 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

    Whilst the ethics issues are important and challenging, we don't know how much this contributed to the problem vs. simple incompetence ... which is both clearer and more tractable. It seems unlikely that everyone involved in bringing about this crisis knew exactly what they were doing and nevertheless pursued it dishonestly.

    As educators, we can't reasonably be held responsible for immoral behaviour by our graduates, since we clearly don't condone it!, Society at large might, though, reasonably want to know why we didn't make sure they got the basic professional skills needed to not mess up on this huge scale.   

    So .. what should they have understood, why did the education we gave them fail, and what are we going to do differently to ensure the next generation don't perpetrate the same foolishness?

    Kim Warren: London Business School

     

     

    From: Management Education and Development Discussion [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    Sent: 17 October 2008 19:58
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

     

    Bob, George and all:

    I cannot disagree with any, or many, of your comments.  It certainly seems that we are ignoring the higher level "culture" of the business world in general about doing "right" for the Company and ourselves.  I have heard from too many grads who have tried to implement, carryout, or influence "the way things are done," only to be rejected, intimidated, and even worse in their own organizations.  They are "beaten down" for their efforts to be whistle-blowers, change pioneers or the like.

    Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards needed to turn this around and make "business ethics" less of an oxymoron.

    Ted

    On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:22 PM, George Graen <Lmxlotus@aol.com> wrote:

     




    New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: "Bob Gately" <bobgately@verizon.net>
    To: "George Graen" <Lmxlotus@AOL.COM>
    Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:10:55 -0400
    Subject: re: Think about the global crises

    Hello Dr. Graen:

     

    First, let me thank you for teaching.

     

    In my younger days I forgot to thank my professors for their hard work.

     

    Also, psychology is far more interesting than engineering.

     

    >... I am curious as to your self-deprecation about our role in the lack of business ethics demonstrated by some our former students and the suggestion that we should "brain wash" our students "to put service above self".<

     

    I agree, I never wanted any professor to tell me the way the world should be but then again I started my college career at the age of 23 as a Air Force veteran and was too old to be blatantly misled.

     

    >If I followed your sage advice, my students would nod in agreement, but conclude that I'd crossed the line from education to preaching.<

     

    Exactly!

     

    >My students come to my classes with their ethics firmly in place after twenty-some years of socialization.<

     

    That bit of wisdom seems to be unknown to most all trainers, college professors and business managers.

     

    In our business we recognize and take advantage of twenty-some years of socialization.

     

    >They see no ethical issue when working for a financial corporation to do what's best for the company.<

     

    Mom and Pop failed them somewhere if they would break the law or act unethically unless of course they don't know the ethics of their profession.

     

    I think the expression "Don't be holier than the Pope" applies to mortgage writers.

     

    >When their boss tells them to push sub-prime mortgages and these loans will be approved by the corporate committees, they acquiesce.<

     

    Most all employees actually want to keep their jobs.

     

    Not only were the loans "approved by the corporate committees" but also purchased by Frannie and Freddie.

     

    >This is especially the case when the Federal authorities support universal home ownership, as a high priority.<

     

    Excellent observation. I have made the same point in private replies to some posters.

     

    >Let's not blame our former students for what was clearly a systemic process from the top to the bottom.<

     

    I seem to agree with all your points.

     

    >This public policy of promoting a home for all was succeeding briefly until the mortgage payments were overdue.<

     

    Oh my, no one thought of that?

     

    >It was a bold government experiment based on ideology that failed in our more complex world.<

     

    And they will do it again.

     

    >Looking back, we can see the folly.<

     

    Where were the academicians in 2001 to 2007 when some in Congress tried to reign in the subprime mortgage business?  Were they quiet because they did not care or were they unaware or afraid to be called racists or worse, they actually agreed with giving loans to people who could not afford to make the payments? Whatever the answer I suspect our business schools failed us more than did their former students.

     

    >Continuing to ignore nature in this manner may well spell the end of human history.  We must learn to become better caretakers.<

     

    You take the fun out of foolishly spending other peoples' money.

     

    Bob

    Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA

    Gately Consulting

    115 Dutcher Street

    Hopedale, MA 01747-1006

    Tel: 508-634-7748

    Fax: 508-634-0670

     

     

     

     




    --
    --
    Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    UMBC at The Universities at Shady Grove
    throsen@umbc.edu
    USA



  • 8.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-20-2008 05:34

     

     

    Dear colleagues,

     

    What I have been trying to do, since long before the current crises, is to help my students develop a mindset that allows them to look beyond the boundaries of the mindset that their (future) is instilling them with. This means that they are more inclined to look for results that are not only in the present quarter meaningful and not only to the monkeys that at present have been successful in climbing the hill. I think sustainability has a lot to do with this: look beyond the old paradigm.

    This is difficult, because it works well in the classroom, but when I meet them a few years after graduating they feel the day to day pressures much more than the lessons they once learned in the classroom. I do hope that during crises they remember those lessons, which may help them move through them.

     

    Best regards,

     

    Joop Remmé

    www.knowdialogue.nl

    www.msm.nl

    skype: jhmremme

    +31 (0)71 5212017

    +31 (0)654761087


    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Lundquist
    Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 5:18 PM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

     

    Colleagues,

     

    Kim Warren said, "what are we going to do differently to ensure the next generation don't perpetrate the same foolishness?"

     

    Ted Rosen said, "Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards."

     

    A suggestion:  Teach a paradigm shift. 

        Teach that the measure of success of a business or economy is sustainability. 

        Not growth.  Not what humanity has done for 10,000 years.  But a new measure.

        Instead of quarterly growth metrics, develop sustainability metrics.

        Not just sustainability as defined by environmentalists, but broader suites of ethics as a foundation for civilization.

     

    Only global education is a sufficient agent of change to define, clarify, and motivate such a result. 

     

    Best,

     

    <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Gary</st1:place></st1:city>

     

    ...........................................

    Gary Lundquist

    Director@InnoSearchColorado.com

    <st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Colorado</st1:place></st1:state> Resources for Innovation

    303-840-9929 

    ...........................................

    GaryL@Market-Engineering.com

      Innovation of Business and

    the Business of Innovation

    -----Original Message-----
    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Kim Warren
    Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 4:20 AM
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

    Whilst the ethics issues are important and challenging, we don't know how much this contributed to the problem vs. simple incompetence ... which is both clearer and more tractable. It seems unlikely that everyone involved in bringing about this crisis knew exactly what they were doing and nevertheless pursued it dishonestly.

    As educators, we can't reasonably be held responsible for immoral behaviour by our graduates, since we clearly don't condone it!, Society at large might, though, reasonably want to know why we didn't make sure they got the basic professional skills needed to not mess up on this huge scale.   

    So .. what should they have understood, why did the education we gave them fail, and what are we going to do differently to ensure the next generation don't perpetrate the same foolishness?

    Kim Warren: <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placename w:st="on">London</st1:placename> <st1:placename w:st="on">Business</st1:placename> <st1:placetype w:st="on">School</st1:placetype></st1:place>

     

     

    From: <st1:personname w:st="on">Management Education and Development Discussion</st1:personname> [mailto:MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    Sent: 17 October 2008 19:58
    To: MG-ED-DV@AOMLISTS.PACE.EDU
    Subject: Re: Think about the global crises

     

    Bob, George and all:

    I cannot disagree with any, or many, of your comments.  It certainly seems that we are ignoring the higher level "culture" of the business world in general about doing "right" for the Company and ourselves.  I have heard from too many grads who have tried to implement, carryout, or influence "the way things are done," only to be rejected, intimidated, and even worse in their own organizations.  They are "beaten down" for their efforts to be whistle-blowers, change pioneers or the like.

    Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards needed to turn this around and make "business ethics" less of an oxymoron.

    Ted

    On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:22 PM, George Graen <Lmxlotus@aol.com> wrote:

     

     


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    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: "Bob Gately" <bobgately@verizon.net>
    To: "George Graen" <Lmxlotus@AOL.COM>
    Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:10:55 -0400
    Subject: re: Think about the global crises

    Hello Dr. Graen:

     

    First, let me thank you for teaching.

     

    In my younger days I forgot to thank my professors for their hard work.

     

    Also, psychology is far more interesting than engineering.

     

    >... I am curious as to your self-deprecation about our role in the lack of business ethics demonstrated by some our former students and the suggestion that we should "brain wash" our students "to put service above self".<

     

    I agree, I never wanted any professor to tell me the way the world should be but then again I started my college career at the age of 23 as a Air Force veteran and was too old to be blatantly misled.

     

    >If I followed your sage advice, my students would nod in agreement, but conclude that I'd crossed the line from education to preaching.<

     

    Exactly!

     

    >My students come to my classes with their ethics firmly in place after twenty-some years of socialization.<

     

    That bit of wisdom seems to be unknown to most all trainers, college professors and business managers.

     

    In our business we recognize and take advantage of twenty-some years of socialization.

     

    >They see no ethical issue when working for a financial corporation to do what's best for the company.<

     

    Mom and Pop failed them somewhere if they would break the law or act unethically unless of course they don't know the ethics of their profession.

     

    I think the expression "Don't be holier than the Pope" applies to mortgage writers.

     

    >When their boss tells them to push sub-prime mortgages and these loans will be approved by the corporate committees, they acquiesce.<

     

    Most all employees actually want to keep their jobs.

     

    Not only were the loans "approved by the corporate committees" but also purchased by Frannie and Freddie.

     

    >This is especially the case when the Federal authorities support universal home ownership, as a high priority.<

     

    Excellent observation. I have made the same point in private replies to some posters.

     

    >Let's not blame our former students for what was clearly a systemic process from the top to the bottom.<

     

    I seem to agree with all your points.

     

    >This public policy of promoting a home for all was succeeding briefly until the mortgage payments were overdue.<

     

    Oh my, no one thought of that?

     

    >It was a bold government experiment based on ideology that failed in our more complex world.<

     

    And they will do it again.

     

    >Looking back, we can see the folly.<

     

    Where were the academicians in 2001 to 2007 when some in Congress tried to reign in the subprime mortgage business?  Were they quiet because they did not care or were they unaware or afraid to be called racists or worse, they actually agreed with giving loans to people who could not afford to make the payments? Whatever the answer I suspect our business schools failed us more than did their former students.

     

    >Continuing to ignore nature in this manner may well spell the end of human history.  We must learn to become better caretakers.<

     

    You take the fun out of foolishly spending other peoples' money.

     

    Bob

    Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA

    Gately Consulting

    115 Dutcher Street

    <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Hopedale</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">MA</st1:state> <st1:postalcode w:st="on">01747-1006</st1:postalcode></st1:place>

    Tel: 508-634-7748

    Fax: 508-634-0670

     

     

     

     




    --
    --
    Ted Rosen, Ph.D.
    UMBC at The Universities at Shady Grove
    throsen@umbc.edu
    <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region>



  • 9.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-29-2008 12:17
     




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  • 10.  Think about the global crises

    Posted 10-29-2008 14:04

    Hello Dr. Grean:

    >Thank you for the wonderful supportive email regarding management education.<

    You're welcome and it is my pleasure.

    You made my day and it is only 8:00 am now.

    >I would like to quote it in my next book in the LMX Leadership monograph.  May I have permission?  Do you mind if I site "Gately Consulting"?<

    Yes, of course, if you think what I write has any value to your readers.  

    >Thank you very much and good fortune.<

         You're welcome and thank you.

    I have copied below the text I sent to Dr. Rosen on this issue.

    --------------------

    In late 1990 the company's controller approached me and shared with me a disturbing fact-we were heading out of business because we were fast approaching our line of credit at the bank. He begged me to do something to save the company. I said to him "Why are you telling me? Tell the directors." I was an Associate, one level below Director. He told me that he has "told them numerous times but they are incapable of taking action." What should I have done for my company and myself?

    >Dr. Rosen: I have heard from too many grads who have tried to implement, carryout, or influence "the way things are done," only to be rejected, intimidated, and even worse in their own organizations.  They are "beaten down" for their efforts to be whistle-blowers, change pioneers or the like.<

    I made the decision to help my company since I owned 1% of the 220 employee engineering design firm. Fortunately for me I had started an Executive MBA program in January, 1991. As I was learning in the classroom I was applying it in the workplace.

    I learned during the last class on the last day of the MBA program that we should not be a change agent unless the CEO asks us to do it and only if he'll fire the first manager or executive who gets in the way of the change. I made a huge mistake by becoming a change agent for a firm that did not want to change. I was downsized 6 weeks before graduation.

    After I left in May 1992, the company's banker went to my brother the CPA and advisor to business and industry for insight into how to deal with a problem client not knowing that my brother's brother, me, worked there for 20 years. In fact, the banker didn't tell my brother the name or size of the company, the business of the company, the location of the company or anything else about the company other than the behavior of the board of directors. The banker was maintaining client confidentiality. My brother said to her "That is the XYZ company." She fell out of her chair so to speak. She wanted to know how he knew. He said "my brother worked there for 20 years and told me the same story."

    A few months later a senior Director asked the remaining Associates "why have you all been so quiet at our Director/Associate's meetings?" A future company president responded "Where is Gately?"

     Employees learn quickly when acquiescence is rewarded and confrontation is punished.

     The Director/Associate's meetings were started because of my agitation to save the company from bankruptcy. My fellow Associates knew what I had done since I had asked all of them to help. I asked them to tell their directors that we were planning to meet to help the company. The day after our first meeting the board started the Director / Associate meetings. I think they started the meetings to control us.

    At the first meeting Bob B. who was one of my fellow Associates and who had told me he was not going to say a word because he did not trust the Directors not to hold a grudge said "I want to discuss communications between Directors and Associates." Before Bob B. could continue a Director said "Bob, before you continue let me just tell you that a recent Directors meeting we all agreed that we have good communications with our Associates." Bob B. responded "Communication between the Directors and the Associates is terrible." For the next 18 months the meetings went downhill. The president and other directors spent too much time telling us that the problems we perceived were not really problems as if we were too stupid to know a problem when it hit us in the head.

    Some directors believed that confrontations are bad so they avoided confrontations at all costs.

     My advice to business school professors is to teach their students that they are not personally responsible for fixing the ailing companies that they may work for in the future. Advise them to wait until they are the CEO and/or are asked by the CEO to be the change agent. Business school graduates need to know when to bail out of dysfunctional organizations.

     >Our job needs to address what can be done to create those new ethics, values and rewards needed to turn this around and make "business ethics" less of an oxymoron.<

    The discussion on ethics in business is very interesting yet distressing, see my letter to Robert Weisman, below.

     It is interesting because unethical behavior by managers causes harm to not only the organization but also employees, former employees, future successful employees that were not hired, customers, clients, vendors, society, etc.

     It is distressing because business schools want to fix a problem of the heart that was created by a lifetime of learning outside the classroom and sometimes in the classroom where cheating is rewarded.

     I have a problem with business schools that say or imply that their graduates will be good managers. Well educated yes but not necessarily good managers.

     In the 1989 article "Transforming the Engineer into a Manager: Avoiding the Peter Principle" Civil Engineering Practice, Fall 1989. The author, Dr. Neil Thornberry a Professor at Babson College, asserts that young engineers are judged on technical merit and accomplishment, and that promotions go to the technically proficient and verbally expressive engineers, while less technically proficient and verbally expressive engineers wait their turn.

    Dr. Thornberry found that for a group of engineers the most talkative, competent engineer gets the first promotion into management. The second most talkative, competent engineer gets the second promotion into management. However, the third most talkative, competent engineer makes the best manager. Managers need to listen more than they talk. Now let us presume that a growing company keeps promoting their most talkative competent engineers into management. What do we have? The best technical experts no longer doing the work and the best managers not in management and if they are in management they report to someone who is less capable of managing effectively.

     Do convicted business managers and executives offer the excuse that their business schools failed to teach them right from wrong? I think not. We can tell they knew right from wrong by the great lengths they went to to hide their unethical and illegal behaviors.

     Perhaps the problem is that business schools want to believe that everyone is good and if only they can show them how to be good they will be good. It doesn't work that way.

     Some business school students were unethical before they entered the school and some will be unethical after they graduate. Schools may think they'll have big impact but I don't think so.

     If we operate at the university level on the basis of trust, we are teaching the unethical students that they can cheat without worrying about being caught. The ethical students will wonder why they don't cheat since their fellow students are cheating and getting grades they don't deserve.

     Most all managers are ill-equipped to actually manage their direct reports even if they are well educated.  

     Finally, the problem is not how business schools educate their students but how employers hire their managers, see below. How do such unethical managers get hired and how do they survive on the job?

    Robert Gately





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