Discussion: View Thread

Sounds like you have tried/worked through a lot of techniques.

Have you tried breaking the class into small discussion groups, assigning
a different topic to each, and having each group pick a rep who reports
back their consensus/conclusions to the class at-large? I have seen this
done even in auditorium settings.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ruth H. Axelrod, Doctoral Candidate | How come when I want a
Organizational Behavior and Development | set of hands I get a
The George Washington University | human being as well?
(H) 301-593-4938 |
11372 Baroque Road, Silver Spring, MD 20901 | Attributed to Henry Ford
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Charles Carroll wrote:

> I am facing two overlapping problems here:
> (a) culture differences regarding class participation, and
> (b) teaching large lectures.
>
> As an American teaching in The Netherlands, I find that my Dutch
> students (compared to the US students I have taught) are far MORE
> willing to speak amongst themselves and far LESS willing to interact
> with the professor. (This pattern appears regardless of who the
> professor is.) The students here are (self)described as "consumers."
> They sit and listen to what the professor has to say, then they go
> home. Since the professors themselves demonstrate the same tendencies
> in colloquia and faculty meetings, this seems to be a part of the
> general culture.
>
> I am trying to adapt to the culture, but I am reluctant to give up
> an interactive style of teaching in favour of lecturing at students.
>
> I teach a strategy course with 300-400 students in a huge
> auditorium. I often hear that you can not get a good discussion going
> with such a large group--especially when the cultural norms don't
> include particpating in class. However, the opposite could be argued
> from a sampling perspective. Given such a large sample of students,
> the odds are good that 5-10 students will have something to say on
> virtually any topic. Of course, more interesting topics get far more
> volunteers (more than I can use). The subset of participants changes
> from topic to topic, but I have noticed a solid core of students that
> I can generally rely on when the discussion starts to drag. The
> trick for classes with 300-400 students is managing the "momentum".
>
> Questions requiring the recall of small facts or names often brings
> the discussion to an abrupt halt if no one knows the answer. That can
> kill the "momentum" for subsequent questions.
>
> Questions regarding opinions often to have limited value. The
> conclusion is often, "So what? People have different opinions."
> Since "tolerance" of other perspectives is an essential element of
> Dutch culture, students here don't seem to find this type of debate
> very interesting or insightful.
>
> One approach that does work is a "thumbs-up or thumbs-down" voting
> system where all of the students are forced to take a position on a
> given topic. For example, "If a consultant came into your office and
> tried to sell you this solution to your problem, would you (a) pay
> him/her or (b) boot him/her out of the building?" I then pick a
> handful of students with opposing views and have them support their
> respective positions. This approach works best when both sides can be
> argued convincingly, and the trick is then to discover the possible
> contingencies for applying one approach as opposed to the other.
>
> Initially, most of the students tried to hide (abstain from
> voting)--typical for students in this culture. The problem
> disappeared quickly once they realized that I called on the
> "undecideds" first. Here, humor helps more than authoritarian
> inquisitions. Regarding shyness, if someone really does not want to
> talk, I pick someone else. My goal is to increase participation and
> keep the conversation lively. Brutalize introverted students kills
> the momentum of the class--not to mention the harm done to the
> individual. I prefer a satisficing approach rather than trying
> to maximize participation.
>
> I have probably gotten the best results when posing paradoxes (e.g.,
> common observations which seem to contradict widely accepted
> theories). The students tend to get more "worked up" in the
> discussion, and based on the facial expressions, these types of
> questions tend to get them thinking more than the other types of
> questions that I have tried. Also, you can give them a paradox at
> the end of class and let them wrestle with it for a few days. The
> down-side for the teacher is that it takes a lot longer to find
> paradoxes and puzzling contradictions than it does to find facts. So
> the preparation time for these kinds of discussions can be enormous.
> Still, I find it more interesting, and I believe (hope) the students
> do too.
>
> "Met vriendelijke groeten,"
> Charlie Carroll
> Charles Carroll, Ph.D.
> Universitair Docent (Assist. Prof.)
> Faculty of Management and Organization
> University of Groningen
> Landleven 5
> Postbus 800
> 9700 AV Groningen
> The Netherlands
> Fax: +31 50 363 2174
> tel: +31 50 363 3626 / 3839
> prive: +31 50 542 0583
> e-mail: c.carroll@bdk.rug.nl
>

Charles Carroll, Ph.D. <c.carroll@bdk.rug.nl> wrote:

>>... Brutalize introverted students kills the
momentum of the class--not to mention the harm done
to the individual ...<<

Todays' introverted students are unlikely to become the
extroverted leaders of tomorrow, but they still need to
have the knowledge. All students will not assume the role
of leader, so why should we expect them to behave as
leaders and speak their mind or be outspoken in the
classroom?

Bob

+----------------------------+
| Robert F. Gately, PE, MBA |
+----------------------------+----------------------+
| GATELY CONSULTING (508) 473-0955 |
| 115 Dutcher Street Fax (508) 634-0670 |
| Hopedale, MA 01747-1006 Toll Free (800) 478-8117 |
| http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/gately/ |
+---------------------------------------------------+

Just an idea for dealing with large lecture halls.

You might try dividing it into quadrants and try to develop interactivity
within each quadrant--using only one quadrant per day to localize
discussion to that particular subset of students.

______________________
Great Optimism,

Dutch Driver
Dept. of Communication
McMurry University
Abilene, TX
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu

I am facing two overlapping problems here:
(a) culture differences regarding class participation, and
(b) teaching large lectures.

As an American teaching in The Netherlands, I find that my Dutch
students (compared to the US students I have taught) are far MORE
willing to speak amongst themselves and far LESS willing to interact
with the professor. (This pattern appears regardless of who the
professor is.) The students here are (self)described as "consumers."
They sit and listen to what the professor has to say, then they go
home. Since the professors themselves demonstrate the same tendencies
in colloquia and faculty meetings, this seems to be a part of the
general culture.

I am trying to adapt to the culture, but I am reluctant to give up
an interactive style of teaching in favour of lecturing at students.

I teach a strategy course with 300-400 students in a huge
auditorium. I often hear that you can not get a good discussion going
with such a large group--especially when the cultural norms don't
include particpating in class. However, the opposite could be argued
from a sampling perspective. Given such a large sample of students,
the odds are good that 5-10 students will have something to say on
virtually any topic. Of course, more interesting topics get far more
volunteers (more than I can use). The subset of participants changes
from topic to topic, but I have noticed a solid core of students that
I can generally rely on when the discussion starts to drag. The
trick for classes with 300-400 students is managing the "momentum".

Questions requiring the recall of small facts or names often brings
the discussion to an abrupt halt if no one knows the answer. That can
kill the "momentum" for subsequent questions.

Questions regarding opinions often to have limited value. The
conclusion is often, "So what? People have different opinions."
Since "tolerance" of other perspectives is an essential element of
Dutch culture, students here don't seem to find this type of debate
very interesting or insightful.

One approach that does work is a "thumbs-up or thumbs-down" voting
system where all of the students are forced to take a position on a
given topic. For example, "If a consultant came into your office and
tried to sell you this solution to your problem, would you (a) pay
him/her or (b) boot him/her out of the building?" I then pick a
handful of students with opposing views and have them support their
respective positions. This approach works best when both sides can be
argued convincingly, and the trick is then to discover the possible
contingencies for applying one approach as opposed to the other.

Initially, most of the students tried to hide (abstain from
voting)--typical for students in this culture. The problem
disappeared quickly once they realized that I called on the
"undecideds" first. Here, humor helps more than authoritarian
inquisitions. Regarding shyness, if someone really does not want to
talk, I pick someone else. My goal is to increase participation and
keep the conversation lively. Brutalize introverted students kills
the momentum of the class--not to mention the harm done to the
individual. I prefer a satisficing approach rather than trying
to maximize participation.

I have probably gotten the best results when posing paradoxes (e.g.,
common observations which seem to contradict widely accepted
theories). The students tend to get more "worked up" in the
discussion, and based on the facial expressions, these types of
questions tend to get them thinking more than the other types of
questions that I have tried. Also, you can give them a paradox at
the end of class and let them wrestle with it for a few days. The
down-side for the teacher is that it takes a lot longer to find
paradoxes and puzzling contradictions than it does to find facts. So
the preparation time for these kinds of discussions can be enormous.
Still, I find it more interesting, and I believe (hope) the students
do too.

"Met vriendelijke groeten,"
Charlie Carroll
Charles Carroll, Ph.D.
Universitair Docent (Assist. Prof.)
Faculty of Management and Organization
University of Groningen
Landleven 5
Postbus 800
9700 AV Groningen
The Netherlands
Fax: +31 50 363 2174
tel: +31 50 363 3626 / 3839
prive: +31 50 542 0583
e-mail: c.carroll@bdk.rug.nl

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Bob Gately wrote:

> Todays' introverted students are unlikely to become the
> extroverted leaders of tomorrow, but they still need to
> have the knowledge. All students will not assume the role
> of leader, so why should we expect them to behave as
> leaders and speak their mind or be outspoken in the
> classroom?

Why not train them to the highest standard possible so that their
futures have paths a wider array of options?

After they leave the cloister of the ivory tower, then they can make more
informed choices. I reject that notion that introverts will not be
required to speak their minds in the future. I suspect that there are a
great many introverts now sitting in the boardrooms of Silicon Valley who
wish that they had been pushed to express themselves orally during those
classes in ADA or C++ programming.

______________________
Great Optimism,

Dutch Driver
Dept. of Communication
McMurry University
Abilene, TX
ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu

Dutch Driver <ddriver@cs1.mcm.edu> wrote:

>>... Why not train them to the highest
standard possible so that their futures
have paths a wider array of options? ...<<

As long as it is voluntary and not coerced.

>>... After they leave the cloister of
the ivory tower, then they can make
more informed choices ...<<

I hate to say this, but many people can make informed choices
while still in the ivory tower.

>>... I reject that notion that introverts
will not be required to speak their minds
in the future...<<

I worked for an engineering manager with that viewpoint. He would
direct his staff to speak their minds. Of course, he was only told
what the staff thought he wanted to hear. Whenever we make people,
introverts as well, speak their minds we are more than likely going
to hear whatever it is they think we want to hear especially if
there is a price to pay for being honest.

>>... I suspect that there are a great many
introverts now sitting in the board rooms of
Silicon Valley who wish that they had been
pushed to express themselves orally during
those classes in ADA or C++ programming...<<

How disappointed you will be to find that introverts, like extroverts,
are quite happy with themselves and do not wish to become someone else.
Why do we presume everyone wants to be an extrovert? I am an extrovert
and used to believe it myself.

Bob

> You might try dividing it into quadrants and try to develop interactivity
> within each quadrant--using only one quadrant per day to localize
> discussion to that particular subset of students.

I haven't tried segmenting the room yet. I suspect that the physical
layout of this particular auditorium will make it very hard to get
students interacting with each other. I will keep it in mind for
future reference. I am always trying to add to my bag of tricks.
Thanks for the suggestion.

Charlie.

********************************************
Charles Carroll, Ph.D.
Universitair Docent (Assist. Prof.)
Faculty of Management and Organization
University of Groningen
Landleven 5
Postbus 800
9700 AV Groningen
The Netherlands
Fax: +31 50 363 2174
tel: +31 50 363 3626 / 3839
prive: +31 50 542 0583
e-mail: c.carroll@bdk.rug.nl

introverted people are to management what faint of hearted
people are to the medical professin--they don't belong; change
jobs! k.g.

Do you really feel this way? Before I go on a diatribe, please define
what YOU mean by introverted.

>----------
>From: KAREN GILBERT[SMTP:receive@aztec.asu.edu]
>Sent: Friday, February 21, 1997 11:09 AM
>To: MG-ED-DV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
>Subject: Re: Cultural shyness & large lectures
>
>introverted people are to management what faint of hearted
>people are to the medical professin--they don't belong; change
>jobs! k.g.
>

Karen Gilbert <receive@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:

>>... introverted people are to
management what faint of hearted
people are to the medical profession--
they don't belong; change jobs!...<<

Davis, Miles <miles.davis@EXSE01.EDS.COM> then replied:

>>... Do you really feel this way?
Before I go on a diatribe, please
define what YOU mean by introverted...<<

The following are the definitions we use for the
Introvert and Extrovert section of our job fit assessment:

"An introvert prefers the company of a few close friends and is
content to be alone. They choose quiet, familiar surroundings."

"An extrovert enjoys the stimulation of being with many people,
especially if given the opportunity to be the center of
attention. They like exciting, lively places."

I'm sure there are effective managers who also introverts.

Bob

KAREN GILBERT wrote:
>
> introverted people are to management what faint of hearted
> people are to the medical professin--they don't belong; change
> jobs! k.g.

I read somewhere that the majority of CEOs are actually introverts. One
of the keys to being a successful executive is being able to "read"
other people, and introverts do this better than extroverts, because
they listen more than they talk.

Bob Ingram